What is Going On In The U.S.?

[dick van cock]

Fair points: but don't forget that the US has now invaded two Middle Eastern nations and there is talk of invading a third. There is the difference.

No fox! The difference is:

The Islamists target civilians on purpose. US forces kill civilians by accident.

If enemy combatants hide in civilian locations to provoke an attack with numerous civilian casualties. Who's to blame??? Kofi Annan used to blame Israel / the US - do you do, too?

A minority of extremist Palestinians have a thirst for vengeance (they used to have their own country, now it is Israels). .

The Palestinians NEVER had their own country! They were ruled by Ottomans or Brits. Had they agreed to the 1947 division plan, they'd could've ruled over a homeland for 60 years now. Stupid bastards!

 

[meesterperfect]

I love the U.S. so much, as I have lived abroad several times and I just have not found a country that is so open like this one where you can feel free to travel at any time to any of the States and say whatever is in youir mind. But recently a lot of those stuff are being slowly taken away as the Goverment can incarcerate you without proper cause, wiretap your phone conversations, limit or deny your freedom of speech with just one nasty little word..."terrorism". Is amazing how the rest of the world have had to delat with that nasty little word for decades and now that we have joined the world in a so called "War on Terror" we are isolating ourselves and limiting individuals rights by using fear tactics. Everyday I ask myself what is going on in this country that I love so much but yet if I open my mouth and say something is fuck up the way Bush and his croonies and that weak ass Congress are doing stuff I will be labeled as a traitor or better yet a "terrorist". Or maybe there's nothing wrong and I am just exagerating civil liberties must be sacrificed in order to win the "War On Terrorism"

You havn't found a country as open as the U.S.? Lets get serious now.You,ve gotta watch everything you say and who you say it to there with the fear of being labeled a racist or sexist or something else.I've never been in a country with so much pent up frustration and "polital correctness".
This comes from society, not always from the government.
Ok you want to say that our civil liberties are being taken away by the republican party, fine, but pay attention and research it a little more and you will hopefully see that it is the democratic party and its selective liberalism that attempts to take away your freedom little by little. But its always for your own good they say.
Seriously, have any of your civil liberties really been taken away by the Bush administrations efforts in the war on terror?
I said it before and I'll say it again, Like him or not under Bushes presidency thousands of "real" terrostists have been captured or killed. Many of them big dogs. Many planned acts of terrorism in the U.S. and around the world have been stopped before they happened.
His administration has made it much more difficult for someone to commit an act of terrorism on U.S. soil.
Again, let the people vote in Hillary or Obama, thats like giving terrorists a licsense to do whatever they want.

I understand why many are against the whole Iraq thing, But that has little do with overall national security.

 

[member006]

Fair points: but don't forget that the US has now invaded two Middle Eastern nations and there is talk of invading a third. There is the difference. No-one's invaded the US (or anyone else for that matter), the terrorists that supposedly perpetrated those attacks operate with no national allegiance in europe, north america, asia, africa... these invasions are illegal.

Like every other nation that has dealt with terrorism, the US should certainly try and combat terrorism domestically, in every way it can. But to invade nations abroad that have nothing to do with anything, and to use this as an excuse... I find it amazing that any Americans still say "we are doing what we have to do to protect ourselves" when time after time after time, it has been shown and is now believed across the world, that none of the American military actions have any bearing on domestic protection, and that is probably the last thing on the minds of the politicians who perpetrate the wars. If you really believe invading Middle Eastern nations keeps *anyone* safe, then you're right. But does anyone believe that anymore? I can't believe they ever did. It is bizarre.

Not forgetting 911 is one thing, but a thirst for vengeance is against all morality and hopes for peace. A minority of extremist Palestinians have a thirst for vengeance (they used to have their own country, now it is Israels). A minority of militant Israelis have a thirst for vengeance (many of their civillians have been killed by the aforementioned thirst for vengeance), and look at where it has gotten those groups of people. Remember 911 peacefully and with solemn remorse, not by killing more innocents. I'm sure most people would agree with that. Unfortunately, not the ones in power.

I am certain everyone wants "World Peace" but its not going to happen. I'm sorry many can't except that. I sure as hell don't like it, but its a fact. War is as old as time my friend and "Shangri la" a "fantasy". Much as I wish it weren't, it is.

So you are saying that the U.S. is a big part of the problem and that the wars going on now are us wanting "vengeance"? Damn I certainly hope I'm suffering my usual "Wednesday hardest work day" tiredness and that I read that one wrong.

LL

 

[don_equis]

There was lots of disagreement in Nazi Germany, but the leaders imposed their will. That is a definite parallel. Yes, the Nazis did try to win the hearts and minds, and spread their ideology. No, they did not have rules of engagement but back then, the Allies barely had rules of engagement either, compared to today. Such things are a product of the Geneve convention and the UN, and...

And thankyou Legzman. Nice of you to say.

I won't be able to really post anymore on this thread as I have to go away until June. Don't anyone on either side go getting personal and insulting or getting banned over it, take my word for it, it's not worth it.

Bush called me a terrorist, because I am a pacifist and don't support his war ("if you're not with us, you're with the terrorists")... I can't think of a President who has been more fascist since the 1950s in America.

Not to bash on the germans but from I see from the rallies was nothing but hate for the Jews (since they were the cause of their discontent, poverty, mixing of the race, etc) and the way the nazies won the hearts and minds were at gun point and killing anyone not worthy of their racial purity aspirations. Yeah most of it was imposed, but some of them have a chance to fight and so they did for those i :hatsoff:. I would like to see any other country in the world that would invade a country and treat the people with dignity like our armed forces do.. trust me they do go through a lot of training on the things not to do to the point that it gets ridiculous such as not shooting until you are sure you being shot at. the Gestapo did not try to win anyone's heart or have any rules of engagement, there's no parallel. I see globalization very different than fascism or communism. Its like a allaince of the bank, multinationals, oil and goverments to shape the world to their benefit...who knows it might be more dangerous, total control.


P.S. Hurry up and get your butt back here!

 

[dick van cock]

There is nothing accidental about bombing innocent people. I don't think the nation that has bombed large cities full of people (Vietnam, recently Kabul, Baghdad), causing thousands of innocent casualties, and has nuked two Japanese cities and continues to justify that, has any business complaining that the enemy targets innocent people.

Dresden and Hamburg would have been convincing examples on your list... World War II saw many a war crime on the Allied side - but would you haver preferred to see the Axis Powers win?

We both enjoy the liberties of an open society. If it takes air strikes with a large number of innocent deaths --- so be it! Cynical as it may sound (and be!)

We're solely talking about the so-called "war on terror" in this thread. This implies that the US has stroke back against numerous enemy attacks. Even if you call the support for Shah Reza Pahlevi an enemy act - it wasn't! Hence, 9 /11 was an offensive - not a defensive - act (as you like to allege)

And yes the Palestinians have made many many mistakes, but so have the Israelis. Both sides are equally to blame for *continuing* the conflict. Both sides think they're 100% right - you are a great example of that.

If you'd take the time to read previous posts of mine, you'll find harsh criticism of Israeli settlements in Palestinian territories.

I don't claim that Israel has acted right on every occasion, but EVERY serious peace initiative was supported by Israel and rejected by the Palestinians.

That makes me wonder...

 

[don_equis]

You havn't found a country as open as the U.S.? Lets get serious now.You,ve gotta watch everything you say and who you say it to there with the fear of being labeled a racist or sexist or something else.I've never been in a country with so much pent up frustration and "polital correctness".
This comes from society, not always from the government.
Ok you want to say that our civil liberties are being taken away by the republican party, fine, but pay attention and research it a little more and you will hopefully see that it is the democratic party and its selective liberalism that attempts to take away your freedom little by little. But its always for your own good they say.
Seriously, have any of your civil liberties really been taken away by the Bush administrations efforts in the war on terror?
I said it before and I'll say it again, Like him or not under Bushes presidency thousands of "real" terrostists have been captured or killed. Many of them big dogs. Many planned acts of terrorism in the U.S. and around the world have been stopped before they happened.
His administration has made it much more difficult for someone to commit an act of terrorism on U.S. soil.
Again, let the people vote in Hillary or Obama, thats like giving terrorists a licsense to do whatever they want.

I understand why many are against the whole Iraq thing, But that has little do with overall national security.

I did not say anything about republicans (isn't embarrasing that they had congress and the presidency and they still lost because they didn't do much for this country), but is nice that you bring this up because this country is becoming bi polar, there is nothing but right or wrong, left and right. You are assuming that I am a democrat, since in this country you have to be either one or you are just a "terrorist" or outcast. I hate the democrats with their political correctness, social liberalism and how is it that gay( I don't hate gay people now) couples have more legal rights than me, Hillary must not win!, Obama I don't know much about him, just that he don't have much experience, but then Mr. Texas Ranger (Bush) had a lot of that and he has screwed this whole country up, I mean whatever happened to social security reform, health care, the outsorcing that's going on right now? I blame the republicans for sitting on their fat asses, letting Rush do their fight (shit they own almost every talk show that there is on radio), fighting over if they should clone stemcells over their beliefs and putting their religion over everything (I guess in this country is called conservatism, while in other countries is fundamentalism terrorism), they dropped the ball and now we are in greater danger because of the shit just got mixed with more shit from the dems.

I mean open as in geography, like traveling state to state without having to stop at checkpoints and showing a passport, id,etc....wait that might change with the way things are going. Now this "war on terror" is never ending it can't be won since more people are going to fight us and we are going to keep calling them terrorist, vicious cycle. Yeah there has been more terrorist captured since 9/11 but the rest of the world was fighting terrorist long time ago, we jsut ignored it and thats why the tragic event on 9/11 was a wake up call for us that we are not isolated from world events. Now what happened to the war on drugs and poverty?.....did we win?

 

[AFA]

I love the U.S. so much, as I have lived abroad several times and I just have not found a country that is so open like this one where you can feel free to travel at any time to any of the States and say whatever is in youir mind. But recently a lot of those stuff are being slowly taken away as the Goverment can incarcerate you without proper cause, wiretap your phone conversations, limit or deny your freedom of speech with just one nasty little word..."terrorism". Is amazing how the rest of the world have had to delat with that nasty little word for decades and now that we have joined the world in a so called "War on Terror" we are isolating ourselves and limiting individuals rights by using fear tactics. Everyday I ask myself what is going on in this country that I love so much but yet if I open my mouth and say something is fuck up the way Bush and his croonies and that weak ass Congress are doing stuff I will be labeled as a traitor or better yet a "terrorist". Or maybe there's nothing wrong and I am just exagerating civil liberties must be sacrificed in order to win the "War On Terrorism"

Good story about this on Frontline PBS last night. You can see the hour online;
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front..._2_frontlinebrspyingonthehomefront_2007-05-16

 

[Legzman]

I'm gonna guess fox got banned over something in this thread?

 

[McRocket]

It is an event that will not and should not ever be forgotten. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Just because it is worse elsewhere doesn't mean that we should say "That's OK. Forget about it. At least its not as bad as what *** country or *** are facing."

I don't think he was typing that 9/11 should be forgotten. I think he was typing that it's been six years almost and people are still using 9/11 as justification for doing not good things.

 

[meesterperfect]

I'm gonna guess fox got banned over something in this thread?

Oh no not again......and last time he and philbert got banned philbert never returned.

 

[McRocket]

And to add to my above post...


In terms of percentage of total population that has lost their lives to war/terrorism; America has gotten off far lighter then many countries. But yet many Americans seem to act like what happened to them on 9/11 is worse then anything that ever happened anywhere in the last 10 years. And that simply is not true.
And some of these same Americans use it to justify doing terrible things to their fellow humans simply out of fear that it might happen again.
And yet other countries put up with terroism on a monthly/weekly/daily basis and just shrug it off as an unfortunate part of life.
Americans had it incredibly easy terrorist wise for a long time. Now they have tasted it and they don't like it.
Well join the party people. Much of the rest of the world has had to put up with far worse for far longer. And they realize it is just reality. You cannot avoid it. You can just do your best to limit it and live with it.
And this world would - IMO - be allot better off if America learned that as well.

 

[ckjedi66]

War on Terror? what War on Terror? How many times was the US a victim of terror since 9/11? None.

Jesus christ, that was almost 6 years ago! get over yourselves! There is far worse terror in Israel, Lebanon and Iran and there are far worse civil wars in Africa. The entire world except the us and western europe lives in fucking poverty and all those Americans are bitching non-stop about Bush and 9/11.

Oh so we should just forget it and move on? WTF? YOU get over yourself, i had family at the towers on 9/11 (thankfully they are alive) and i know people who had friends and relatives die there, so keep your "get over yourselves" BS to your damn self, you have some nerve telling us to get over it. Other countries have problems huh? No kidding, get over it as you might say, It is not my fault those countries have those problems. The US isn't perfect and I have never thought we were and we have been the fucking world police force for way to long and i'm sick of it, i'm sick of trying to solve the woes of other countries while our problems get ignored. Invading Iraq was a mistake and we have no business being there. Apart from that, I guess i should feel so priviliged that there has not been any terror attacks since 9/11 huh? I should just forget about the all the people that died there for someone else's bullshit political or religious agendas? I'm glad there haven't been anymore attacks, but I am sure as hell not just going to forget the events of 9/11 just because other countries have it worse. Take your unfeeling and cold hearted BS somewhere else. If i get banned for speaking my mind about this so be it, but there was no way i was not going to respond to that arrogant, cold hearted BS statement.

 

[alexios]

Please allow me to sum this answer up: The United States is like Hercules in that we are just now beginning our full-fledge emergence from a self-inflicted craziness brought on by isolation, conservativism, fear, and an inability to understand changing realities. Just as Hercules, when we are awakened and realize the full extent of what has occurred, the United States must now commit to performing labors in order to undue the wrongs that we have done during our period of craziness. That being said, nobody expects that these labors will be easy: they will be difficult and we will have to work to brush away the cobwebs of the past. This is what is going on in the United States.

 

[meesterperfect]

And to add to my above post...


In terms of percentage of total population that has lost their lives to war/terrorism; America has gotten off far lighter then many countries. But yet many Americans seem to act like what happened to them on 9/11 is worse then anything that ever happened anywhere in the last 10 years. And that simply is not true.

I don't think ayone has ever said it was the worst thing that ever happened to them, except for the wives, friends families and children of those who were murdered that day. So tell that to them.
[/QUOTE]And some of these same Americans use it to justify doing terrible things to their fellow humans simply out of fear that it might happen again.[/QUOTE]
Exactly what are these terrible things? Do you mean removing the Taliban from Afghanistan or Saddam from Iraq? You act like the U.S. are the ones blowing up city streets, buses, trains ect. with the intention of killing everyone in the viscinity. Do you have some deep rooted guilt complex?

[/QUOTE]And yet other countries put up with terroism on a monthly/weekly/daily basis and just shrug it off as an unfortunate part of life..[/QUOTE]
Oh then its ok then, Its just an unfortunate part of life so we shouldn't do anything to stop it, just accept it until we are destroyed. You sound like Hillary and Obama, they've said the same thing.
Maybe you can accept it , but not me
.[/QUOTE]Americans had it incredibly easy terrorist wise for a long time. Now they have tasted it and they don't like it...[/QUOTE]
Well Duh
[/QUOTE]Well join the party people. Much of the rest of the world has had to put up with far worse for far longer. And they realize it is just reality. You cannot avoid it. You can just do your best to limit it and live with it.
And this world would - IMO - be allot better off if America learned that as well.[/QUOTE]
Again, so just stand by and let people who have vowed to kill us just fuck us up anytime they'd like.Blow up a building with thousands inside, hijack planes, blow up buses and subways and trains. Kill civillians at will and ultimatley Destroy us all,and do nothing to stop or at least try to prevent it? Accept it and realize you can't avoid it? The 2 words I want to say to you would get me banned.
Damn you sound like an Al-Quada spokesman. We got Tokyo Rose over here."The Statue of Liberty is Kaput"
Its people with your attitude that are going to bring on the fall of the United States. What scares me is too many people in the U.S. are suffering from the same affliction as you.
What you are saying is just let terrorists commit acts of terrorism at will until they do something really big. And just accept it. No. Not me.
If a large portion of the United States is destroyed, thousands or millions will be dead, the country will cease production, there will be no water, no electricty, no lights,no gas, no places to buy food or other products, marshal law will kick in, widespread looting, no more school, no more work, the economy will be destroyed and life as we know it will be gone forever.
Sounds pretty grim, but if we (The United States) does what you say we should do thats what will eventually happen.

 

[McRocket]

Exactly what are these terrible things? Do you mean removing the Taliban from Afghanistan or Saddam from Iraq? You act like the U.S. are the ones blowing up city streets, buses, trains ect. with the intention of killing everyone in the viscinity. Do you have some deep rooted guilt complex?

No. These terrible things are torturing people in the name of stopping potential terrorists. Of Gitmo. Of tapping people's phones. Of removing many of their rights. Of invading countries and causing untold death and destruction all in the name of preventing terrorism.

What you are saying is just let terrorists commit acts of terrorism at will until they do something really big. And just accept it.

And where exactly did I type that?
If you can factually prove to me that the United States would cease to exist had Iraq not been invaded or Gitmo not been established or torture not condoned by the White House then I will change my mind.
But until you can prove that, then I say that the White House is using 9/11 and terrorism as an excuse to do these terrible things to further their own personal goals.

And how bad do I think 9/11 was? Exactly 1/200th as bad as what the world (including the U.S.) turned their back on and let happen in Rwanda years ago. 1/200th because 200 times as many innocent people died in that.

 

[blakey]

Please allow me to sum this answer up: The United States is like Hercules in that we are just now beginning our full-fledge emergence from a self-inflicted craziness brought on by isolation, conservativism, fear, and an inability to understand changing realities. Just as Hercules, when we are awakened and realize the full extent of what has occurred, the United States must now commit to performing labors in order to undue the wrongs that we have done during our period of craziness. That being said, nobody expects that these labors will be easy: they will be difficult and we will have to work to brush away the cobwebs of the past. This is what is going on in the United States.

i kind of see where you're going with the hercules analogy alexios
but i just got 2 observations
- do you think that others are "aksing" america to take on the herculean tasks or where does the duty to perform these tasks come from ? ( it is an interesting comparison though eg defeating al qaeda / slaying the hydra or fixing iraq / cleaning the augean stables )
- secondly, the american "hercules" is gonna be overtaken, sooner or later, by other foreign giants from the east ( india and china) that will be richer and at least 3 times larger ( in population, probably 4) - so in 10, 20, 30 years or whatever, america will no longer be the giant who has responsibility to protect the world

 

[McRocket]

I realize I did not answer part of your question.
What America should do is what they are doing in terms of Homeland security (except for the wiretapping huge numbers of people). Take all the precautions needed.
But do not torture and kill and invade sovereign countries on the pretext that it might help stop terrorism.
I guarantee you that most of the reason that terrorists want to kill Americans is because of all the crap they are doing all over the world.

And please don't give me this 'they want to kill them because they hate their way of life', nonsense.
Are way of life is almost as good up here in Canada. Better if you are under middle class because of our social safety nets. And yet they aren't bombing us. Why? Because we mind our own business (at least until we mistakenly got involved in Afghanistan).

 

[meesterperfect]

No. These terrible things are torturing people in the name of stopping potential terrorists. Of Gitmo. Of tapping people's phones. Of removing many of their rights. Of invading countries and causing untold death and destruction all in the name of preventing terrorism.
And where exactly did I type that?
If you can factually prove to me that the United States would cease to exist had Iraq not been invaded or Gitmo not been established or torture not condoned by the White House then I will change my mind.
But until you can prove that, then I say that the White House is using 9/11 and terrorism as an excuse to do these terrible things to further their own personal goals.

And how bad do I think 9/11 was? Exactly 1/200th as bad as what the world (including the U.S.) turned their back on and let happen in Rwanda years ago. 1/200th because 200 times as many innocent people died in that.

First of all I wasn't talking about Iraq, I was talking about terrorism in general and your conclusion that the world should just accept it.
But now that you mention the U.S. turning its back on Rwanda years ago, well if thats the case I suppose we turned our backs on Saddam and Iraq also for years when he killed or caused the deaths of at least a million people during his lifetime.You know gassing, torturing,raping women in front of husbands then slitting their throats,smashing in babies skulls in front of their parents, murdering family members in front of family members, throwing people off roofs, and countless other sick barbaric shit.
But you are worried about the prisoners in Gitmo, seems you have selective critism and its always againt the United States.
Don't worry, Join the Club,there are millions of others that share that same affliction.

 

[McRocket]

It is wrong to invade sovereign countries whenever you feel like it.
China isn't repressive? It doesn't torture and kill it's citizens? What about North Korea? Zimbabwe? Saudi Arabia? The list goes on and on. Why not liberate them?
Bush invaded Iraq because they have oil and they were weak and they thought they could democrasize (and control) the Middle East. And they trumped up terrorist and WMD links to justify it.
You say Bush's reasons were just. I say you fell for his propoganda.

History will judge.

 

[don_equis]

Based from what I have read and seen around me the U.S. has become very polarized, debting in this country can easily turn into a fight. Even though the U.S. is the only super power left in the world it has done a lot for other countries in humanitarians way, I have never seen China, India, Russia, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, France step up and help other countries in need. Everyone waits for the U.S. to make a move, they sit back and if it looks bad then they critized. Iraq can be won if e go all out and put that country on lockdown like we did back in 2003, but that would mean that we will have to be responsible to police and defend them and thats what we don't want and of course you going to have all these politics claiming that we have lost the war it is very popular these days to say stuff like that (we really need some good leadership and a lot of support for these troops over there that are fighting with both their hands tied behind their back). Since 9/11 happened we do deserve to live secure and to never forget and better protect ourselves from future attack because sooner or later they will hit us again. But is fear enough reason to give so much power over to the goverment in order to protect us? Have anyone in here had any paperwork mistaken and went trough the whole bureacratic process of fixing it. Do I ned someone to monitor where do I go in the internet of if I am buying a lot of porn to look at my credit card record? To be profile because of my skin color is darker than white so either I am an ilegal Mexican or Middle Eastern, when in fact I was born in Florida. To have someone steal my identity adn then get punish for not safeguarding it? Is funny how you are not supposed to carry your social security card but most jobs ask you to show it and photocopy it. My love for this wonderful land of the brave is what gives me the right to fight and try to fix the system instead of just sitting by in fear or defeat saying that nothing can be done. In a democracy the people must always remember that our leaders are accountable to US!