'The hardest decision I have ever made': Illinois governor abolishes death penalty

[Member2019]

Re: 'The hardest decision I have ever made': Illinois governor abolishes death penalt

bad decision, you will remark it is also the state where Obama was a senator (Illinois for the case) that has one of the worst criminality rates. Excusing crimes by abolishing the death penalty is being weak and laxist.

Illinois has much greater issues than the death penalty.

One of the reasons I did not like Obama was because of their state budget, especially several of the bills Obama voted for, that defied logic. One of my favorites was him requiring health insurance companies to provide invitro as medically necessary, among others.

Sadly, he's made the same decisions in the federal budget, going well beyond trying to recover the economy, and laying down a complete, federally-funded US to do everything it cannot afford. He went beyond even my worst fears.

The only entertainment we're going to get out of this will be watching Illinois totally implode a couple of years before the US federal government does.

 

[Member2019]

Revisionist history ...

Should this cast of characters also be held accountable?
What they said and when they said it-

Agreed.

Democrats have flat out lied on their involvement going into Iraq just like they have tried to re-write history on NAFTA. Clinton had the same intelligence during his administration. Hillary herself was in Congress during W.

I'm so tired of people calling W. a liar without revisiting those who were with him.

The Saddam regime lied about WMDs throught all UN inspections from 1991-1995. This included the Clinton administration being duped and portions of the Security Council being paid off to not support the US in 1995, only for WMDs to be found again in 1996 thanx to defections.

By 1998, the Clinton administration had had it, and unilaterally bombed Iraq, and was even talking about invasion. Doesn't anyone remember the "open dialogs" on this? Or are Democrats so in denial?

There was absolutely no reason to trust Saddam. That's why Democrats voted to give W. the power, including the right to use military force.

As a Libertarian, that's when I started complaining. Because I did not want to go into Iraq. I said it would be at least 5 years. Seems even I underestimated.

 

[Hot Mega]

Re: 'The hardest decision I have ever made': Illinois governor abolishes death penalt

Show us some evidence that the death penalty does a single thing to bring down crime rates and make a society better.

He can't because it doesn't. If the death penalty really was a deterrent no murders or other heinous crimes would be commited in countries wich have the death penalty.

The overriding consideration for any sentence for any crime is punishment not (necessarily) deterrence. Even as such, we know the recidivism rate for those sentenced to death will be zero (i.e. we know they won't be killing again).

Anecdotally it seems if appropriate sentences for death were ordered and carried out swiftly it might be more of a deterrent. There are many many convicted and accused who bargain their way out of the death penalty...very few if any bargain their way into it. We know that once a criminal is caught a common tool prosecutors use is the threat of the death penalty to compel criminals to cooperate. If the death penalty had no affect you would think it would have no leverage value for prosecutors either. The fact that it does tends to cut against the argument of it having no potential deterrent value. That aside, most criminals aren't thinking about being punished prior to their crimes anyway.

It's also good to remember you can judge a society not only by how it treats it's weakest members but also by how it treats it's prisoners.
It doesn't matter how you try to twist and turn it, state sanctioned killing is still murder.

It's murder IMO if a prosecutor withholds evidence proving a suspect didn't or couldn't commit a crime but argues for and gets a death sentence ordered against someone. It's not an eye for an eye. It's crime and punishment. If you set about a plan to take the life of some innocent individual and carry it out, your right to live should be forfeited. A murderer who kills an innocent individual then having their right to life forfeited after due process are not equal acts. If you believe they are then .

Should this cast of characters also be held accountable?

What they said and when they said it-

:nono: The majority of what you cite here (copy/pasted) would be like trying to sentence a judge and jury for going along with a prosecutors trumped up case.

 

[meesterperfect]

Re: 'The hardest decision I have ever made': Illinois governor abolishes death penalt

what do Saddam's crimes have to do with the crimes of western leaders?

what do western leaders crimes have to do with the death penalty?
round and round and round and round and round.

 

[emceeemcee]

Re: 'The hardest decision I have ever made': Illinois governor abolishes death penalt

Should this cast of characters also be held accountable?

Indeed.



It's just that W was the commander-in-chief so it's reasonable he cop most of the flak.

 

[beauregard]

Re: 'The hardest decision I have ever made': Illinois governor abolishes death penalt

I bet your neighbours feel lucky

Let someone kill your child and see how you feel, unless you want to pansy out and make friends with them, pray with them with a god for some false forgiveness just so you can sleep at night.

 

[Supafly]

Re: 'The hardest decision I have ever made': Illinois governor abolishes death penalt

Let someone kill your child and see how you feel, unless you want to pansy out and make friends with them, pray with them with a god for some false forgiveness just so you can sleep at night.

The basis of being an adult and responsible person is:

Do you choose the Cro Magnon Way or the Intelligent Way.

If you choose to base your decisions on sheer emotions, it's the first. That means heading backwards. The world does not need any more people living in the Middle Ages, we need more people who want to take our cultures forward.

 

[CunningStunts]

Re: 'The hardest decision I have ever made': Illinois governor abolishes death penalt

The basis of being an adult and responsible person is:

Do you choose the Cro Magnon Way or the Intelligent Way.

If you choose to base your decisions on sheer emotions, it's the first. That means heading backwards. The world does not need any more people living in the Middle Ages, we need more people who want to take our cultures forward.

How is letting animals like this live "moving forward?"

Let justice be done upon him. He and sociopaths like him DESERVE death. We as a society cannot and should not tolerate the existence of those whom inflict pain and misery on innocent people. :2 cents:

 

[girk1]

Re: 'The hardest decision I have ever made': Illinois governor abolishes death penalt

Let someone kill your child and see how you feel, unless you want to pansy out and make friends with them, pray with them with a god for some false forgiveness just so you can sleep at night.

"....Pray with them with a God for some false forgiveness"? You kidding right?:dunno:

There are 4 pages here & I haven't heard one single person(not 1) oppossed to the Death Penalty ever mention 'God' nor 'religion' let alone 'forgiveness'.:dunno:

Actually in the U.S. the Christian & Conservative Right( who are PRO -Life ironically) are the biggest supporters of the Death Penalty from what I understand.

Those of us opposed the the Death penalty are usually the "Christian bashing" & weak 'liberals' who don't want prayer in schools or any religious symbols publicly shoved down or damn throats.

How does that match up with with your 'pray to God' & 'forgiveness' nonsense?


I am an Atheist & my opposition to the Death penalty, just as most rational thinkers on the 'liberal' left, has nothing to do with God & more to do with Civil Liberties & Progressive thinking.


You call those opposed to the Death Penalty "Pansies"? What's so tough about hiding behind a freaking security glass & watching dozens of armed men restrain one guy & put a needle in his damn arm?

Most big talkers like you would shit your pants if you had to face Tookie Williams on the streets.:1orglaugh

Most of the time 'forgiveness' is brought up by opponents of the death penalty is in an an attempt to appeal to the Christians 'so called' values & their supposedly value of human life(Pro Lifers who favor the Death penalty:surprise. Not because they themselves believe that.

 

[Ulysses31]

Re: 'The hardest decision I have ever made': Illinois governor abolishes death penalt

Let someone kill your child and see how you feel, unless you want to pansy out and make friends with them, pray with them with a god for some false forgiveness just so you can sleep at night.

Actually the history of thr death penalty can be traced back to people with strong Christian beliefs, you know an 'eye for an eye'. It's no coincidence that people in Europe demand a seperation between church/religion and state and that no European country has the death penalty. It's no different to muslim countries implementing the death penalty as part of sharia law.

Should this cast of characters also be held accountable?

What they said and when they said it-

A lot of that is typical from what you get from US politicians, all talk and no action. Most likely they were trying to appease some voters somewhere. I'm more concerned with those who fabricated evidence or knowingly used fabricated evidence to push the case for the invasion that actually occured. There is no doubt that some people in high places knew Saddam had no WMDs yet sent thousands of coalition troops to their deaths looking for them, they are the ones that need to be punished so that no adminstration ever betrays it's authority and the integrity of it's country ever again. I think most people in Europe don't trust anything US politicians say anymore as we always assume in their minds the end will justify the means so a few lies at the beginning doesn't matter.

 

[qiinson]

Re: 'The hardest decision I have ever made': Illinois governor abolishes death penalt

The governor's main point I believe was we do a pretty bad job when it comes to convicting innocent people. (Ties into our history of racism we still haven't quite gotten past.) I'm sure if they could fix the system, everyone would be a lot more comfortable with executing deserving offenders.

:clap:

Bravo Governor Quinn! Let's get rid of it altogether....one state at a time if need be.

:clap::clap::clap:

:clap:

Hot Mega-

the fact that Facetious is in furious agreement with you doesn't make you the slightest bit doubtful about the strength of your arguments?


:1orglaugh

:clap: :1orglaugh

True. But is that a case for abandoning justice? Are we to be so paralyzed by the thought that there can always be the possibility of being wrong that justice doesn't get meted out? The imperfection of our justice system is not a case against the death penalty IMO.

In order to justifiably punish but also recognize the prospect of fallibility...death sentences should only be ordered in cases where guilt of premeditated murder is unequivocal. There are cases like that out there.

I disagree. That doesn't guarantee a person won't pay the ultimate price for the system's mistake as they could just as likely meet their demise at the end of a inmate's shank. The only thing guaranteed in that case is those guilty of the most serious crime, premeditated murder will not receive deserved sentences commensurate with their crimes.


That's the reason death should only be ordered in cases where guilt is reasonably unequivocal.

Hmmmm. You have made a pretty good case but I think you may have spent too many months/years/decades serving in the military, Sgt Mega. :1orglaugh Could be the gulf war syndrome. :dunno:

Here's why the death penalty needs to be killed off.

^
Until you can take special interests, graft and corruption, bribes and kickbacks, influence peddling, money being the determining factor in "buying" a political office like it was a box of cereal....I could go on....out of the equation, it is far from perfect. I agree that, on paper, it is as fine a political system as there is. It's in the practical application in today's world that it breaks down and breaks down badly.

^ This also applies to the legal system in the good old US of A. OJ Simpson springs to mind. :glugglug:

 

[Member2019]

Re: 'The hardest decision I have ever made': Illinois governor abolishes death penalt

Indeed.
It's just that W was the commander-in-chief so it's reasonable he cop most of the flak.

But it was his decision and he did champion going back into Iraq. I'm the first one to point out that Democrats gave him the power as much as Republicans, but W. still asked for the power.

Bill Clinton might have unilaterally bombed Saddam and considered invasion in 1998. But he did have Albright take it to the college campuses (seemingly what Clinton probably would have wished LBJ would have done in his youth), and decided against invasion.

So W. is liable for actually calling for an invasion. I was very much against it. I took a lot of flak from both Democrats and Republicans for feeling such back in 2002. I said it was "5 years too late." But to say W. "lied" is to ignore the entire history on the matter.

The only leader that lied consistently was Saddam. We just looked stupid in the end. That was something I didn't expect. We only found trace elements and only a handful of shells. Our intelligence failed us in 2003, much like it did in 1991 only in the opposite direction, when we came into Iraq and took a shit because we didn't realize how much he actually had.

Now the one thing I didn't like about W. was saying Iraq had strings to AllyQ. That was flat out not true, and I called him out on it. Everyone knew that Saddam avoided AllyQ because he feared the US. However, I did agree with the argument that if Saddam had WMDs, our biggest fear was his regime losing control of them.

 

[Hot Mega]

Re: 'The hardest decision I have ever made': Illinois governor abolishes death penalt

Hmmmm. You have made a pretty good case but I think you may have spent too many months/years/decades serving in the military, Sgt Mega. :1orglaugh Could be the gulf war syndrome. :dunno:

Wrong rank (meaning don't refer to me out of rank) and the military has nothing to do with it.

 

[beauregard]

Re: 'The hardest decision I have ever made': Illinois governor abolishes death penalt

"....Pray with them with a God for some false forgiveness"? You kidding right?:dunno:

There are 4 pages here & I haven't heard one single person(not 1) oppossed to the Death Penalty ever mention 'God' nor 'religion' let alone 'forgiveness'.:dunno:

Actually in the U.S. the Christian & Conservative Right( who are PRO -Life ironically) are the biggest supporters of the Death Penalty from what I understand.

Those of us opposed the the Death penalty are usually the "Christian bashing" & weak 'liberals' who don't want prayer in schools or any religious symbols publicly shoved down or damn throats.

How does that match up with with your 'pray to God' & 'forgiveness' nonsense?


I am an Atheist & my opposition to the Death penalty, just as most rational thinkers on the 'liberal' left, has nothing to do with God & more to do with Civil Liberties & Progressive thinking.


You call those opposed to the Death Penalty "Pansies"? What's so tough about hiding behind a freaking security glass & watching dozens of armed men restrain one guy & put a needle in his damn arm?

Most big talkers like you would shit your pants if you had to face Tookie Williams on the streets.:1orglaugh

Most of the time 'forgiveness' is brought up by opponents of the death penalty is in an an attempt to appeal to the Christians 'so called' values & their supposedly value of human life(Pro Lifers who favor the Death penalty:surprise. Not because they themselves believe that.

Don't believe in the bible myself, you think you take the moral high road by not fighting back and taking a stand, however all this does is show that regardless of how strong you think you might be (whether true or not), people will walk all over you.

Tookie Williams still should have died on the streets with a few gun shots, he was a thug who lived off of the crimes and killings he did. But let me guess, since he wrote children's books, he was a changed man and should have been released and not killed. He was a thug who executed a father of two with a double tap from a shotgun while he lay prone trying to save his life.

I stand by my comments, and sorry most liberals I meet are worse thinkers out there, some worse then Glen Beck or Palin. They are the ones who are anti death penalty, but back pro choice, hypocrite anyone?

For the record, I support pro choice and the death penalty, I must be a godless bastard, thats all I am. But this godless bastard will fight and die for his family fully not believing in heaven or hell, would you do the same for your wife and son?

 

[qiinson]

Re: 'The hardest decision I have ever made': Illinois governor abolishes death penalt

Wrong rank (meaning don't refer to me out of rank) and the military has nothing to do with it.

Yes, sir!!!!!

BTW if you ever wanna talk about it, you know where to find me. :ak47:

 

[blakey]

Re: 'The hardest decision I have ever made': Illinois governor abolishes death penalt

well done gov :thumbsup:

he has moved his state into the company of most modern, civilised & democratic countries

and away from the likes of china, saudi arabia etc

:clap: