CIA Waterboarded Mohammed 183X in 1 Month, Zubaydah 83X in 1 month

i'm gonna have to go ahead and accuse you of ducking the question.

you know what i was asking.
waterboard to save.........
not kill to punish.

paragraph 4 looks like a no.
paragraph 5 looks like a yes.

If the equation was simply water board someone and save my child's life...then the answer is obvious if you already know I would kill someone to save my child's life.

But you realize in the context of this thread your question is a false narrative, right?
 

meesterperfect

Hiliary 2020
no i didn't realize that.

but i commend you for answering truthfully.

so then if you would do it to save your own child would you do it to save someone elses?

anyone else besides mega feel free to answer.
 
so then if you would do it to save your own child would you do it to save someone elses?

Yes! Again, that's an easy question if the simple equation is, I have someone (presumably a criminal or terrorist) next to me and water boarding him (or worse) equals the saving of an innocent's life.

But that's not what this thread is about...unless you have specific evidence that this is what this thread is about.
 
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/misc/factsheet.htm

TORTURE: QUICK FACTS

At least 45 detainees died in U.S. custody due to suspected or confirmed criminal homicides.[1] At least eight people were tortured to death. At least 98 detainees have died while in U.S. custody in Iraq or Afghanistan;[2]

At least 69 of the detainees died at locations other than Abu Ghraib;[3]

At least 51 detainees have died in U.S. custody since Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld was informed of the abuses at Abu Ghraib on January 16, 2004;[4]

12 deaths have led to punishments of U.S. personnel;[5]

0 CIA personnel have been charged with wrongdoing in connection with alleged involvement in at least 5 deaths;[6]

As of November 2005, over 83,000 people have been held in U.S. custody, and about 30,000 of those were entered "into the system," and assigned internment serial numbers in Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, and Afghanistan;[7]

There have been nearly 600 criminal investigations into allegations of detainee abuse; each investigation tends to include more than one U.S. soldier, more than one instance of abuse, and more than one victim. Allegations against 250 Soldiers have been addressed in courts-martial, non-judicial punishments, and other adverse administrative punishments. The highest ranking military member judicially punished in connection with the death of a detainee is Marine Major Clarke Paulus, who was found guilty of maltreatment and dereliction of duty and dismissed from the service.[8]

Reportedly 100-150 individuals have been rendered from U.S. custody to a foreign country known to torture prisoners, including to Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Pakistan;[9]

There are 6 main acknowledged U.S. detention facilities worldwide--3 in Iraq, 2 in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay;[10]

There are approximately 25 transient facilities - field prisons designed to house detainees only for a short period until they can be released or transferred to a more permanent facility-in Afghanistan and Iraq;[11]

There are believed to be at least 11 'secret' detention locations used since September 2001. They are/were CIA facilities in Afghanistan, Guantanamo, Poland, Romania, and Jordan, detention facilities in Alizai, Kohat and Peshawar in Pakistan, a facility on the U.S. Naval Base on the island of Diego-Garcia, and detentions of prisoners on U.S. ships, particularly the USS Peleliu and USS Bataan.[12]

Over 15,000 people are currently in U.S. detention in just Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay. As of February 16, 2006, in Iraq, there were 14,389 detainees in U.S. custody; as of December 2005, the U.S. was holding approximately 500 detainees in Afghanistan; as of February 10, 2006 there are approximately 490 detainees held at Guantanamo Bay and one enemy combatants held in the U.S.;[13]

36 prisoners are believed to be held in unknown locations;[14]

At least 376 foreign fighters detained in Iraq to whom the Administration has asserted the Geneva Conventions do not apply;[15]

There were up to 100 ghost detainees in Iraq;[16]

The U.S. transferred at least one dozen prisoners out of Iraq for further interrogation in violation of the Geneva Conventions;[17]

8 percent of 517 Guantanamo detainees were considered al Qaeda fighters by the U.S. Government. Of the remaining detainees, 40% have no definitive connection to al Qaeda or Taliban.[18]

5 percent of the 517 detainees held at Guantanamo were captured by the United States and the majority of those currently in custody were turned over by other parties during a time when the United States was offering large sums for captured prisoners.[19]

At least 267 detainees have been released from Guantanamo Bay since January 2002. 187 were released out right, and 80 were transferred to their home countries for continued detention;[20]

38 detainees at Guantanamo determined not to be enemy combatants pursuant to CSRT and at least 23 detainees subsequently released; 558 CSRTS conducted in total[21]

As of February 9, 2006, the military had completed its first round of Administrative Review Board (ARB) hearings, resulting in 463 board recommendations of which Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon R. England, the Designated Civilian Official for ARBs decided to allow 14 releases (3 percent), 120 transfers (26 percent) and to continue to detain 329 individuals (71 percent);[22]




While this info is a bit old every day we are now hearing more and more about what was really going on and it is just confirming the above.What went on was the waterboarding and a lot more including killing.While previously I had said no one in the govt should be put on trial for what had happened with the inhanced interrogations and we should just stop what we had been doing and move on I now think someone must be held accountable.I have heard a lot more about what was done and its a lot worse then I had been lead to beleive it had been.It not for putting the people who just carried out the orders on trial but the leadership (Bush,Cheney,Rumsfield,CIA head,attorney general) must be held to account for authorizing this.Even if later they are pardoned for the good of the country the message must be sent we are not going to tolerate this being done by our govt in our name.
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/misc/factsheet.htm

TORTURE: QUICK FACTS

At least 45 detainees died in U.S. custody due to suspected or confirmed criminal homicides.[1] At least eight people were tortured to death. At least 98 detainees have died while in U.S. custody in Iraq or Afghanistan;[2]

At least 69 of the detainees died at locations other than Abu Ghraib;[3]

At least 51 detainees have died in U.S. custody since Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld was informed of the abuses at Abu Ghraib on January 16, 2004;[4]

12 deaths have led to punishments of U.S. personnel;[5]

0 CIA personnel have been charged with wrongdoing in connection with alleged involvement in at least 5 deaths;[6]

As of November 2005, over 83,000 people have been held in U.S. custody, and about 30,000 of those were entered "into the system," and assigned internment serial numbers in Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, and Afghanistan;[7]

There have been nearly 600 criminal investigations into allegations of detainee abuse; each investigation tends to include more than one U.S. soldier, more than one instance of abuse, and more than one victim. Allegations against 250 Soldiers have been addressed in courts-martial, non-judicial punishments, and other adverse administrative punishments. The highest ranking military member judicially punished in connection with the death of a detainee is Marine Major Clarke Paulus, who was found guilty of maltreatment and dereliction of duty and dismissed from the service.[8]

Reportedly 100-150 individuals have been rendered from U.S. custody to a foreign country known to torture prisoners, including to Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Pakistan;[9]

There are 6 main acknowledged U.S. detention facilities worldwide--3 in Iraq, 2 in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay;[10]

There are approximately 25 transient facilities - field prisons designed to house detainees only for a short period until they can be released or transferred to a more permanent facility-in Afghanistan and Iraq;[11]

There are believed to be at least 11 'secret' detention locations used since September 2001. They are/were CIA facilities in Afghanistan, Guantanamo, Poland, Romania, and Jordan, detention facilities in Alizai, Kohat and Peshawar in Pakistan, a facility on the U.S. Naval Base on the island of Diego-Garcia, and detentions of prisoners on U.S. ships, particularly the USS Peleliu and USS Bataan.[12]

Over 15,000 people are currently in U.S. detention in just Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay. As of February 16, 2006, in Iraq, there were 14,389 detainees in U.S. custody; as of December 2005, the U.S. was holding approximately 500 detainees in Afghanistan; as of February 10, 2006 there are approximately 490 detainees held at Guantanamo Bay and one enemy combatants held in the U.S.;[13]

36 prisoners are believed to be held in unknown locations;[14]

At least 376 foreign fighters detained in Iraq to whom the Administration has asserted the Geneva Conventions do not apply;[15]

There were up to 100 ghost detainees in Iraq;[16]

The U.S. transferred at least one dozen prisoners out of Iraq for further interrogation in violation of the Geneva Conventions;[17]

8 percent of 517 Guantanamo detainees were considered al Qaeda fighters by the U.S. Government. Of the remaining detainees, 40% have no definitive connection to al Qaeda or Taliban.[18]

5 percent of the 517 detainees held at Guantanamo were captured by the United States and the majority of those currently in custody were turned over by other parties during a time when the United States was offering large sums for captured prisoners.[19]

At least 267 detainees have been released from Guantanamo Bay since January 2002. 187 were released out right, and 80 were transferred to their home countries for continued detention;[20]

38 detainees at Guantanamo determined not to be enemy combatants pursuant to CSRT and at least 23 detainees subsequently released; 558 CSRTS conducted in total[21]

As of February 9, 2006, the military had completed its first round of Administrative Review Board (ARB) hearings, resulting in 463 board recommendations of which Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon R. England, the Designated Civilian Official for ARBs decided to allow 14 releases (3 percent), 120 transfers (26 percent) and to continue to detain 329 individuals (71 percent);[22]




While this info is a bit old every day we are now hearing more and more about what was really going on and it is just confirming the above.What went on was the waterboarding and a lot more including killing.While previously I had said no one in the govt should be put on trial for what had happened with the inhanced interrogations and we should just stop what we had been doing and move on I now think someone must be held accountable.I have heard a lot more about what was done and its a lot worse then I had been lead to beleive it had been.It not for putting the people who just carried out the orders on trial but the leadership (Bush,Cheney,Rumsfield,CIA head,attorney general) must be held to account for authorizing this.Even if later they are pardoned for the good of the country the message must be sent we are not going to tolerate this being done by our govt in our name.

You are such a good moral lesson lecturer that is amazing and mindblowing :rolleyes::wtf:

Perhaps should we count how many people died because of Ben Laden during the 1st WTC Bombing in 1993, Bombing of the US Ambassy in Nairobi in 1997, Bombing of the USS Cole in 1999 and 2nd and final WTC Bombing the 11/9/2001. Obama will later close Guantanamo, you will have these fuckers free and ready to kill American people again. Great idea, one must be a fucking idiot to think that freeing djihadists was and is a wise idea. But you are one of these Obama ass kissers and blind fan boys so I guess, it is worthless to argue with you. The reality is that with barbarians and people who support Ben Laden and Ahmadinejhad, strong methods only work. Enemy combatant or not, anyone who backs up Ben Laden, Fatah, Hezbollah, Hamas, Ahmadinejhad, Al Aqsah Martyr Brigades, Armed Islamic Group and the Islamic Salute Front needs to die. People who are for weakening interrogation methods with dangerous suspects, should probably be put on watch list by the CIA, NSA and the FBI and considered as a potential America's enemy.
 
People who are for weakening interrogation methods with dangerous suspects, should probably be put on watch list by the CIA, NSA and the FBI and considered as a potential America's enemy.

Wow, what are you? ********? So if someone thinks the US government shouldn't lower itself to their level with these kind of tactics he or she is a potential enemy of the US? Is that really what you think? Are you really that ***** and shortsighted?

And I will say once more what interrogation experts with years of experience have said; if someone is tortured he or she will say whatever it is they think their torturer wants to hear to make the pain stop. What exactly is it you don't understand about this? It's not rocket science you know, even a 4 year old can understand it.

EDIT: Freedom of speech, I believe and respect. With Freedom comes the responsibility of respecting others views and actions. Let us be more cautious in our use of words, please. We all respect the other members.
 
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georges

Moderator
Staff member
Wow, what are you? *******? So if someone thinks the US government shouldn't lower itself to their level with these kind of tactics he or she is a potential enemy of the US? Is that really what you think? Are you really that ****** and shortsighted?

And I will say once more what interrogation experts with years of experience have said; if someone is tortured he or she will say whatever it is they think their torturer wants to hear to make the pain stop. What exactly is it you don't understand about this? It's not rocket science you know, even a 4 year old can understand it.

Listen carefully what I am going to say because I am not going to repeat myself twice. First, I didn't insult you, so don't ever call me a retard again and keep these insults away. If you can't form a firm opinion politely without insulting the person especially when you are having a discussion, the person who is having a trouble is you. I am all for constructive speech but not insults. Back to the subject, do you remember what happened to Daniel Pearl ???? Do you honestly think that the US Governement is lowering to their levels or is composed from a bunch of barbarians???? Have you seen how people were treated under Saddam? or under the Shah during the first Iranian revolution?
A simple syringe of pathotal or the serum of truth is more efficient than any violence, just by injecting it in the suspect you have all the infos you want without beating him or injuring him. Also suspects will always lie and not tell you the truth especially when they are involved in terrorism,it is not rocket science and anyone who is logical knows it.
There are people who live in the USA and who hate its law enforcement agencies and its military because they think that the methods used are inhuman. I would like to put yourself in the shoes of these people and see what they have to face everyday and with what kind of people they deal everyday. Yet when a country needs help, USA is always the first at the rescue.
I am very far to be shortsighted and dumb :nono: but I am very cautious and I prefer to use a pre emptive strategy than to see a country and its citizens being a victim or potential target later.

have a great day

best regards

georges
 
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But you still think that anyone who is against harsh interrogation methods is a potential enemy of the USA? So a mormon teenager for example could be a potential enemy of the USA....
 

Facetious

Moderated
Just sayin'


How could you outspoken, areligious and in some cases, downright haters of those who embrace Christianity or Judaism actually rally in support of Far extremist right wing factions of fundamentalist Islam ?

Is this another case of The enemy (fundamentalist islam in this case) of your enemy (Christianity and in some cases Judaism) is your friend ?




Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, Fatah al-Islam, Hezbollah, Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Armed Islamic Group, Lashkar-e-Toiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, jamaat-ul-Mujahideen, Abu Sayyaf . . . TALIBAN ! amongst others . .

These are your allies in your ongoing campaign of hatred and opposition of western christian values ? Will they liberate you is the question. (?)

:shocked:
 
You are such a good moral lesson lecturer that is amazing and mindblowing :rolleyes::wtf:

Perhaps should we count how many people died because of Ben Laden during the 1st WTC Bombing in 1993, Bombing of the US Ambassy in Nairobi in 1997, Bombing of the USS Cole in 1999 and 2nd and final WTC Bombing the 11/9/2001. Obama will later close Guantanamo, you will have these fuckers free and ready to kill American people again. Great idea, one must be a fucking idiot to think that freeing djihadists was and is a wise idea. But you are one of these Obama ass kissers and blind fan boys so I guess, it is worthless to argue with you. The reality is that with barbarians and people who support Ben Laden and Ahmadinejhad, strong methods only work. Enemy combatant or not, anyone who backs up Ben Laden, Fatah, Hezbollah, Hamas, Ahmadinejhad, Al Aqsah Martyr Brigades, Armed Islamic Group and the Islamic Salute Front needs to die. People who are for weakening interrogation methods with dangerous suspects, should probably be put on watch list by the CIA, NSA and the FBI and considered as a potential America's enemy.

Let me start with I think you are giving Obama more credit then he deserves right now on this issue.He has called for no trials and really no accountability for what took place as of yet.I won't bother to try to argue the rest of your post as it speaks for itself IMO.I will just say I think you would have fit right in with people like the Gestapo who liked to watch people who dared to speak up for human rights.Anything goes I guess right, as long as its somehow construed to be protecting the fatherland as in this line.

Enemy combatant or not, anyone who backs up Ben Laden, Fatah, Hezbollah, Hamas, Ahmadinejhad, Al Aqsah Martyr Brigades, Armed Islamic Group and the Islamic Salute Front needs to die.

So you would kill anyone, fighter or not who thinks in a way you don't approve of.Start building those concentration camps and ovens and get the trains ready right Herr Georges.



Wow, what are you? *******? So if someone thinks the US government shouldn't lower itself to their level with these kind of tactics he or she is a potential enemy of the US? Is that really what you think? Are you really that ****** and shortsighted?

And I will say once more what interrogation experts with years of experience have said; if someone is tortured he or she will say whatever it is they think their torturer wants to hear to make the pain stop. What exactly is it you don't understand about this? It's not rocket science you know, even a 4 year old can understand it.

Listen carefully what I am going to say because I am not going to repeat myself twice. First, I didn't insult you, so don't ever call me a retard again and keep these insults away. If you can't form a firm opinion politely without insulting the person especially when you are having a discussion, the person who is having a trouble is you. I am all for constructive speech but not insults.

This is laughable.:1orglaugh
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.Didn't you post in response to me just above the following.

Great idea, one must be a fucking idiot to think that freeing djihadists was and is a wise idea. But you are one of these Obama ass kissers and blind fan boys so I guess, it is worthless to argue with you.

But you don't like or approve of insults.:rofl2:
 
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georges

Moderator
Staff member
But you still think that anyone who is against harsh interrogation methods is a potential enemy of the USA? So a mormon teenager for example could be a potential enemy of the USA....

Teenagers have nothing to do with the post and about mormons, they are perhaps the most peaceful people you will ever meet, they are still living in their time, so they are not concerned by this post. I am talking about the law enforcement and military haters (who are sometimes hoodlums/gang members) to be clear and I am also talking about people who are part of organizations that are members of the black panthers, the black nation of Islam led by Farrakhan, the klan and other organizations like these who think that they should be treated as innocent citizens when they are more than potential murderers and trouble makers inside the USA. For your information, I don't put everyone in the same basket.
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
1) Let me start with I think you are giving Obama more credit then he deserves right now on this issue.He has called for no trials and really no accountability for what took place as of yet.I won't bother to try to argue the rest of your post as it speaks for itself IMO.I will just say I think you would have fit right in with people like the Gestapo who liked to watch people who dared to speak up for human rights.Anything goes I guess right, as long as its somehow construed to be protecting the fatherland as in this line.

2) So you would kill anyone, fighter or not who thinks in a way you don't approve of.Start building those concentration camps and ovens and get the trains ready right Herr Georges.


3) This is laughable.:1orglaugh. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.Didn't you post in response to me just above the following.

but you don't like or approve of insults.:rofl2:

1)You think I was giving a wistful sigh or high approval to Daddy O? :rofl: :laugh: :scream: My both grand fathers fought Nazis during WW2 and I have also visited Auschwitz konzentrationslager. Before making any kind of comment like: "I will just say I think you would have fit right in with people like the Gestapo who liked to watch people who dared to speak up for human rights", I suggest to turn your tongue more than carefully and more than 7 times in your mouth. Because the next time if I see a comment from you in the same form, you will know me in much firmer and not so pleasant terms, I trust this is very clear. I am not here to be belittled nor to be insulted by you. I am polite with you even though I am sarcastic so stay polite.

2)When you have written proofs, like mails exchanged or phone conversations that show that your suspect is more than deeply involved in a bombing or murders, you let him free and go? What a sense of justice. "sarcasm" If someone is financing and sponsoring terrorist groups, does this mean that justice have to respect his rights and treat him like an honorable man? I respect people who respect me and who respect values and traditions in the country where they migrated in, plain and simple. I have absolutely no problem with people who have a different opinion. I don't like people who think they are all allowed including to think that they are above the law. But for people encouraging any form of terrorism and sponsoring it whether it be by financing it or by recruiting new members, proper measures should be taken.

3)There is a famous saying, I am sure you know about it : "Who laughs best, laughs the last."
 

Facetious

Moderated
I am very cautious and I prefer to use a pre emptive strategy than to see a country and its citizens being a victim or potential target later.


Georges, the truth to the matter is that radical islam and the far extreme leftists of the west have something in common -
A.They Hate Capitalism
B.They despise symbols of greatness
C. They hate opposing authority.


Having said that, the far left "activists" we'll call them, have nothing to worry about in the event that America gets hit again, after all it's the evil - greedy "little Ikemen" capitalist that will be affected, not them. It's not like the "section 8" is ever going to be targeted, it wouldn't pay any dividends.

It's somewhat obvious to me that the activist position on this is to do no interrogation or H2O Boarding whatsoever, period ! The activists kinda agree with and condone such attacks in America, if not in fantasy then in reality, but they'll never let it get out. (hush)
Don't underestimate these people ! :D

Oh they hate my guts :p
. . and I'm not even a money grubbing evil capitalist - only just a regular guy
 
3)There is a famous saying, I am sure you know about it : "Who laughs best, laughs the last."


And here I always thought it was "he who laughs last, laughs best" not the other way round.

:rofl:

And I was laughing 1st and am still laughing.:1orglaugh




I suggest to turn your tongue more than carefully and more than 7 times in your mouth. Because the next time if I see a comment from you in the same form, you will know me in much firmer and not so pleasant terms, I trust this is very clear. I am not here to be belittled nor to be insulted by you. I am polite with you even though I am sarcastic so stay polite.

For an answer to your warning, let me call upon a fellow frenchmen of yours to give it for me.

French Taunter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8yjNbcKkNY&feature=related
:wave2:
 
1)I suggest to turn your tongue more than carefully and more than 7 times in your mouth. Because the next time if I see a comment from you in the same form, you will know me in much firmer and not so pleasant terms, I trust this is very clear.

You'd better be very carefull or he's going to bitchslap you :1orglaugh
 

meesterperfect

Hiliary 2020
enough with the internet cheapshots booth.

the reality is that these people sociopathic, fanatical murderers.
and if you want to really stop them you must do unpleasant things.
and although i admit ive never seen a person waterboarded i know there are much worse things that could be done to a person.
like saddam and his son brutally torturing peoples babies and children in front of them to get info, or just for fun.
so anybody who wouldn't waterboard a sociopathic fanatical murderer in order to save a kids or anybodys life (or even thousands) is either a total complete pussy or a cold hearted fuck.
 
so anybody who wouldn't waterboard a sociopathic fanatical murderer in order to save a kids or anybodys life (or even thousands) is either a total complete pussy or a cold hearted fuck.

Now all you have to do is demonstrated there was an imminent threat to the life of some specific kid in order for your hypothetical to be relevant to this discussion.
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
And here I always thought it was "he who laughs last, laughs best" not the other way round.

:rofl:

And I was laughing 1st and am still laughing.:1orglaugh

For an answer to your warning, let me call upon a fellow frenchmen of yours to give it for me.

I have some vids for you of how criminal scum should be dealt with
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyhM6FlsJhs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw94nN5qc_M&feature=related part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASdauLWH9SQ&feature=related part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9SWG1f--GY&feature=related part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7X3pRkRfTg&feature=related part 4
I will post another batch of vids just for you.
 
I hope I would have the strength NOT to waterboard someone no matter what the circumstances. Even if my own Grandparents would be murdered otherwise. I hope I would stand up for principles.
 
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