CIA Waterboarded Mohammed 183X in 1 Month, Zubaydah 83X in 1 month

[BioDefenseGrad]

You have some crooked cops who only use the badge to mean that they are above others, that exist too and I am aware of it. Do you honestly that think that crooked cops don't get punished or are not fired if they are going against the ethics of their police department????
I can't belove how naive you are. Not all cops are abusing of their authority, put yourself in the shoes of cops and the people they have to deal with.

Isn't the difference between the situation with Koresh (and I think most people are angry because a lot of innocent people burned to death there) and Amadou Diallou is that one was a standoff where they went in to kill and had days to plan the operation and the other was an accident. In the wallet incident, it was a few officers serving a high-risk warrant. The guy didn't speak english properly and so didn't react to simple commands. He thought he was being robbed, and went for his wallet. The cops couldn't tell what it was, knew they were trying to apprehend a violent serial-rapist who had previously resisted arrest, and shot him.


Does it make matters worse when the family and black racists turned it into a racial incident? Like the cops wanted to kill a black person and bring trouble into their lives?

 

[Hot Mega]

Isn't the difference between the situation with Koresh (and I think most people are angry because a lot of innocent people burned to death there)

a standoff where they went in to kill and had days to plan the operation and the other was an accident.

What would be the purpose of going in to "kill"??? What was the big deal with Koresh that many of you seem obsessed into believing the government just needed to assassinate him??

The point is innocent is innocent. And I would hope the FBI and BATF would plan for days to serve a warrant on a heavily armed compound full of fatalists. Duh????

That STILL has nothing to do with Koresh and his followers intentionally firing on a LEA in the process of serving a warrant.

It's unfortunate that innocent people died but the government didn't unleash that fate upon them...David Koresh did.

All David Koresh had to do is what most reasonable people do when confronted by LEAs, surrender peacefully and have your day in court. And HE could have saved those peoples live.

I wasn't there and I don't know how the fire started but I do know that Koresh and his followers fired on a LEA and barricaded himself and others in a armed fortress.

LEAs are trained to wait or breach...they're not trained to just walk away after they've been fired upon in an execution of a warrant.

I'm inclined to have allot of problems with the government unfairly descending on law abiding citizens but if you're some fatalist an you start shooting at LEAs then the responsibility falls squarely on your shoulders for what subsequently happens.

So again, an innocent man is gunned down for pulling his wallet out and that's an oopsie, David Koresh causes his own death and the death of many innocents and he's canonized as a victim that the government "went in to kill".

Up is down:updown:

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

What would be the purpose of going in to "kill"??? What was the big deal with Koresh that many of you seem obsessed into believing the government just needed to assassinate him??

The point is innocent is innocent. And I would hope the FBI and BATF would plan for days to serve a warrant on a heavily armed compound full of fatalists. Duh????

That STILL has nothing to do with Koresh and his followers intentionally firing on a LEA in the process of serving a warrant.

It's unfortunate that innocent people died but the government didn't unleash that fate upon them...David Koresh did.

All David Koresh had to do is what most reasonable people do when confronted by LEAs, surrender peacefully and have your day in court. And HE could have saved those peoples live.

I wasn't there and I don't know how the fire started but I do know that Koresh and his followers fired on a LEA and barricaded himself and others in a armed fortress.

LEAs are trained to wait or breach...they're not trained to just walk away after they've been fired upon in an execution of a warrant.

I'm inclined to have allot of problems with the government unfairly descending on law abiding citizens but if you're some fatalist an you start shooting at LEAs then the responsibility falls squarely on your shoulders for what subsequently happens.

So again, an innocent man is gunned down for pulling his wallet out and that's an oopsie, David Koresh causes his own death and the death of many innocents and he's canonized as a victim that the government "went in to kill".

Up is down:updown:

Yes he was gunned down because he dared to show his wallet to police. Tell yourself whatever you want. It was accident, police aren't infallible.

As for Koresh, YES HE CAUSED HIS OWN DEATH. How did he do it? By resisting arrest and not allowing many of his followers to leave. The Federal Government made it worse by cornering these folks over a gun charge and getting dozens of people killed by turning it into a shootout. What was their plan to seperate the people they wanted to arrest from the people they wanted to save?


So let's hear it from you--Because of this wallet incident, where one man was killed in an 8 second life or death confrontation, people who think that the Waco incident was an atrocity have to treat the incident the same exact way?

It's interesting how you can suspend reason to fit with your agenda. Especially when bringing up the Waco incident, which contradicts your previous posts about Government power.

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

Lets be clear I think majority of police do the right thing and act correctly,but thats not news when they do as they should and it shouldn't be as thats what we expect.
It is you that wish to overlook the wrong things they do sometimes as well as the wrong things goverments do.YOU lump people into a basket of accused of something you must be guilty of something and therefore whatever happens to you is ok.
America is suppose to stand for justice and due process and the presumption of innocent until found guilty by a trial.When that is disregarded all americans should be concerned as should all people everywhere of conscience.

How NYPD torture people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0phtQgBKIqc

You're talking about presumption of innocence and have the gall to call this video torture? You're too biased.


I'd also LOOVE to know which town it is New Jersey that you live.

 

[meesterperfect]

That is about as bad a reasoning of a circumstance as could be made IMO.



But I understand that you're incorrigible and it doesn't matter what reason is lodged against your perspective on this, you are convinced you have a point to salvage and will continue to prop up specious, irrelevant arguments.

same to you mega.
i'm just glad that there are people in this world who will do what it takes to protect innocent lives and not sacrifice those lives due to political correctness, like people like you would do.

 

[Hot Mega]

As for Koresh, YES HE CAUSED HIS OWN DEATH. How did he do it? By resisting arrest and not allowing many of his followers to leave. The Federal Government made it worse by cornering these folks over a gun charge and getting dozens of people killed by turning it into a shootout. What was their plan to seperate the people they wanted to arrest from the people they wanted to save?


So let's hear it from you--Because of this wallet incident, where one man was killed in an 8 second life or death confrontation, people who think that the Waco incident was an atrocity have to treat the incident the same exact way?

"made it worse by cornering" them????? Uh, "cornering" suspects and criminals is what LEAs do!!! Are you serious??? LOL!! Again, DAVID KORESH made it worse, not the people who were merely doing their jobs is executing a warrant. I don't care what the charge was...if you escalate it by shooting at the LEA...that's on you...period. What do you mean what was their plan to separate those in the compound from the others.....As far as they know everyone in there is hostile until they prove otherwise...that how they should operate.

They gave this loser plenty of opportunities to end this peacefully by surrendering to them....they certainly weren't going to surrender to him!!

If the cops show up at your door and you start shooting at them with automatic weapons...you can best believe you are going to face return fire. I suppose the feds could guess who's in that compound but the only thing they KNOW is that there are people in there with firearms shooting at them.

The difference in the two cases is one was negligence in killing an innocent man and the other was an operation in which an LEA prepared as they should have to confront an apparent group of heavily armed, combative fatalists and they were right.

 

[meesterperfect]

Yes he was gunned down because he dared to show his wallet to police. Tell yourself whatever you want. It was accident, police aren't infallible.

As for Koresh, YES HE CAUSED HIS OWN DEATH. How did he do it? By resisting arrest and not allowing many of his followers to leave. The Federal Government made it worse by cornering these folks over a gun charge and getting dozens of people killed by turning it into a shootout. What was their plan to seperate the people they wanted to arrest from the people they wanted to save?


So let's hear it from you--Because of this wallet incident, where one man was killed in an 8 second life or death confrontation, people who think that the Waco incident was an atrocity have to treat the incident the same exact way?

It's interesting how you can suspend reason to fit with your agenda. Especially when bringing up the Waco incident, which contradicts your previous posts about Government power.

dude, no matter what koresh did or didn't do, no government should cyanide gas and burn alive women children and babies.
but i know you see that.
funny how in todays twisted world the rights of a mass murderer are more important than women children and babies.
go democrats!

and mega, the atf opened fire first.
if it happenned under bush i know you would believe that.

 

[Hot Mega]

dude, no matter what koresh did or didn't do, no government should cyanide gas and burn alive women children and babies.
but i know you see that.
funny how in todays twisted world the rights of a mass murderer are more important than women children and babies.
go democrats!

and mega, the atf opened fire first.
if it happenned under bush i know you would believe that.

I don't know what the BATF did. I have a hard time believing they just showed up shooting at the Branch Davidians....that doesn't make any practical sense in any reality.

So let me get this straight, the Clinton government showed up on an execution mission and started gunning down Branch Davidians (reason unknown). The ever resourceful Davidians retreated to their armories where they armed themselves against the Nazi-style government hit squad and bravely fought them off, defending their children and property from this death unit. The government hell bent on destroying every life along with the pictures Koresh had of Clinton and Lewinsky called for the cyanide reinforcements to gas and burn the poor David Koresh on national tv to teach the world this is what happens when you hold pics of his omipotence..Emperor Clinton.

Sounds like an interesting script for Hollywood..

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

"made it worse by cornering" them????? Uh, "cornering" suspects and criminals is what LEAs do!!! Are you serious??? LOL!! Again, DAVID KORESH made it worse, not the people who were merely doing their jobs is executing a warrant. I don't care what the charge was...if you escalate it by shooting at the LEA...that's on you...period. What do you mean what was their plan to separate those in the compound from the others.....As far as they know everyone in there is hostile until they prove otherwise...that how they should operate.

They gave this loser plenty of opportunities to end this peacefully by surrendering to them....they certainly weren't going to surrender to him!!

If the cops show up at your door and you start shooting at them with automatic weapons...you can best believe you are going to face return fire. I suppose the feds could guess who's in that compound but the only thing they KNOW is that there are people in there with firearms shooting at them.

The difference in the two cases is one was negligence in killing an innocent man and the other was an operation in which an LEA prepared as they should have to confront an apparent group of heavily armed, combative fatalists and they were right.

Okay, let's break it down for you. I'm in a standoff situation with armed suspects. When was the last time police stormed a place with that many suspects, when the suspect isn't threatening to the kill them? Gee it was Waco....


Yes let's go in to kill or capture a dozen men by destroying the building the hostages/non-actors are hiding in. So most of those people end up dying, whether they were a threat to the police or not. Do you have any idea how many times WACO comes up in CQB classes as an example of what NOT to do.

If you are fishing for an example of hypocrisy, I'm sure there are better examples. Just bringing up the Waco situation and juxtaposing it with the incident in New York is problematic.

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

dude, no matter what koresh did or didn't do, no government should cyanide gas and burn alive women children and babies.
but i know you see that.
funny how in todays twisted world the rights of a mass murderer are more important than women children and babies.
go democrats!

and mega, the atf opened fire first.
if it happenned under bush i know you would believe that.

I think it came down to one of the mandates of Law Enforcement, which is to ensure the rule of law. I don't think there's any, "oh he has us in a pickle/outgunned etc. let's get out of here" in the universe of Law Enforcement. People forcing the cops to retreat is a situation that happens in developing countries, or in Mexico. I would bet they and the press would consider that unthinkable in the modern age.

 

[meesterperfect]

i don't even know why i talking about waco here.
but it may be relevant because some of you excuse the gov for what they did to truly innocent people but find no excuse to what they did to a mass murderer of innocents to avoid more of the same.

at waco, the atf planned a media circus.
they trained at a military base for weeks just to serve a warrant.
they brought 3 media news crews with them to film it.
however there is no footage of the door as they were serving the warrant as the gunfire began.
it disappeared.
that reeks of coverup
they also bulldozed the compound within hours of it burning down.
the atf fucked up, they started blasting, they killed un armed people outside the compound (for example machine gunning a 15 year old standing on top of a silo, its on video).
they got the media to portray koresh as another jim jones during the standoff.
at that point the i wouldnt have surrendered either.
the fbi also set fire to the place (its on video) knowing it would turn the gas they used into cyanide.
the biggest example of government tyranny ever.
but waterboarding some killer of thousands is more dispicable.

check out the bodies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhJik52J2uM

 

[Hot Mega]

Okay, let's break it down for you. I'm in a standoff situation with armed suspects. When was the last time police stormed a place with that many suspects, when the suspect isn't threatening to the kill them? Gee it was Waco....

Yes let's go in to kill or capture a dozen men by destroying the building the hostages/non-actors are hiding in. So most of those people end up dying, whether they were a threat to the police or not. Do you have any idea how many times WACO comes up in CQB classes as an example of what NOT to do.

If you are fishing for an example of hypocrisy, I'm sure there are better examples. Just bringing up the Waco situation and juxtaposing it with the incident in New York is problematic.

Time is on your side in a standoff but at some point a breach is necessary. Never mind the fact that I've been involve personally in breaches. Breaches of that nature involving APCs happen all the time. You're playing by the wrong assumptions from what I can tell. The flaw in your assumption is that the operation presumed there were some number of "hotels" and "tangos" when that was never established one way or the other.

I have practical CQB experience and one thing you will learn at some point is there are always improvements in tactics and lessons to be gleaned in retrospect.

That happens with all operations. How many lessons do you think came out of OJC Panama?? I lost five of my closest brothers there....I don't know what stage you are in with respect to tactical training or otherwise but one thing you'll figure out is dos and don'ts are almost always a part of retrospective analysis in any operation. That doesn't mean anything in particular.

Those men and women were there to do their job, execute a duly authorized warrant and produce a suspect. That didn't happen, their agents were placed in peril, innocent people died....that there would be dos and don'ts as a result is pretty obvious.

Yes, I do separate highly trained tactical operators who happen to draw a situation where they face an heavily armed compound in which they encounter resistance from a fanatical group of fatalists...from a bunch of trigger happy beat cops who blow some innocent guy away because he can't understand English.

The two lessons from these two situation are to train your cops as to what to do in the event they happen to encounter someone who doesn't understand English and the other..lesson, don't use firearms against LEAs trying to execute a warrant.

 

[georges]

I don't know what the BATF did. I have a hard time believing they just showed up shooting at the Branch Davidians....that doesn't make any practical sense in any reality.

So let me get this straight, the Clinton government showed up on an execution mission and started gunning down Branch Davidians (reason unknown). The ever resourceful Davidians retreated to their armories where they armed themselves against the Nazi-style government hit squad and bravely fought them off, defending their children and property from this death unit. The government hell bent on destroying every life along with the pictures Koresh had of Clinton and Lewinsky called for the cyanide reinforcements to gas and burn the poor David Koresh on national tv to teach the world this is what happens when you hold pics of his omipotence..Emperor Clinton.

Sounds like an interesting script for Hollywood..

So when you don't know what the BATF did, why the fuck do you fucking dare to open your mouth and make assumptions which are not verifiable??? For the note, law enforcement personel isn't infaillible, you should know it.
The Clinton government was a shitty government as much as is the Obama government. After all, didn't you all so "brave" liberals voted for a guy that promised you "a so called" change ??

 

[georges]

...b-b-b-but georges got that signed letter from the producer of "COPS" telling him that internal investigations all but eliminate corruption, abuse of power, and police brutality issues within law enforcement. Father declares father to be innocent!

:1orglaugh

As usual, I am not astonished to receive that kind of senseless comment coming from you. During my several trips to the USA, I happened to meet several people who work in various law enforcement agencies, most of them are friends of my two uncles. I have had conversations with them about several cases and the tactics used in each case. I also read a magazine written by cops for cops, its name is "american cop", it gives you a realistic insight about what cops have to deal with and tragic situations they have to cope with.

 

[Hot Mega]

So when you don't know what the BATF did, why the fuck do you fucking dare to open your mouth and make assumptions which are not verifiable??? For the note, law enforcement personel isn't infaillible, you should know it.

I don't know what they did, but I'm not the one claiming they opened fire first, used cyanide and deliberately sought these people out for execution.

The only thing I've stated is what we all know by the record, they were there to execute a warrant (that's provable), they were met with resistance in the form of firearms, with the news media on sight, Koresh could have communicated he wanted to surrender at almost any time, he didn't...

All of the other bullshit conspiracy theories et al are just that bullshit IMO.

I want someone to just tell why the government needed to assassinate this guy?? Tell me something...he was the one who had Monica's dress or something!!!

Effects without causes always bother me.

 

[meesterperfect]

the great majority of the evidence shows that the atf opened fire first.
at that point you have the right to defend yourself, by texas law.
hell the atf and fbi lied so much during and after the seige how can anyone believe anything they say.

maybe koresh could have sent those people out after the fbi took charge and the firing stopped (or almost stopped), at the very possible risk of being shot.
but he didn't.

either way, what government knowingly gasses, throws concussion grenades,fire indiscriminate rounds and ignites a house full of little kids, 50 days after the gun fire stopped?
Even if the adults inside were crazy (which they weren't) shouldn't the gov do whatever it takes to protect the kids?, not kill them.
and they did kill them.
I can imagine those little kids, babies and old people vomiting, and screaming in pain while breathing that gas before losing consciousness , compliments of janet reno and bill clinton.
now thats torture.

 

[Hot Mega]

the great majority of the evidence shows that the atf opened fire first.
at that point you have the right to defend yourself, by texas law.
hell the atf and fbi lied so much during and after the seige how can anyone believe anything they say.

maybe koresh could have sent those people out after the fbi took charge and the firing stopped (or almost stopped), at the very possible risk of being shot.
but he didn't.

either way, what government knowingly gasses, throws concussion grenades,fire indiscriminate rounds and ignites a house full of little kids, 50 days after the gun fire stopped?
Even if the adults inside were crazy (which they weren't) shouldn't the gov do whatever it takes to protect the kids?, not kill them.
and they did kill them.
I can imagine thoose little kids, babies and old people vomiting, and screaming in pain while breathing that gas before losing consciousness , compliments of janet reno and bill clinton.
now thats torture.

You read too many internet myths is all I can say. Texas law says you have the right to fire on LE after they've identified themselves??

Don't fire on LEAs and you should be okay...

PS. Anyone can make up conspiracies and myths....you guys sound like the loons on the left accusing GWB of flying planes into the WTC...

Like I always say, the extreme left and extreme right are so fucked up and have moved so far left and right that they've created a circled and are just two sides of the same coin.

 

[meesterperfect]

i gotta stop.
and i gotta say you are a very cold hearted person.
this wasn't a conspiracy.
this was the atf fucking up.
wheres the videos of the initial contact, the knocking on the door?
it was filmed but it disappeared.
all that i said happened happened, its on video, except for the initail confrontation which the atf/fbi uses as their excuse for everything thereafter. they lost that tape.
the atf fucked up.
the fbi finished the job and killed the people inside ,some outside.
janet reno, bill clinton, the news media covered it up.

why can't you just admit it?
you have no problem denouncing the gov for torturing the terrorist, why can't you denounce them for killing the innocent people inside waco?
and its no conspiracy theory either, as youre hiding behind.
the fbi did kill those people, if not just who was driving those tanks that were puncturing the walls with gas and incinerating it?

i basically consider your entire last post a denial and i cop out.

i gotta stop.

 

[Hot Mega]

i gotta stop.
and i gotta say you are a very cold hearted person.
this wasn't a conspiracy.
this was the atf fucking up.
wheres the videos of the initial contact, the knocking on the door?
it was filmed but it disappeared.
all that i said happened happened, its on video, except for the initail confrontation which the atf/fbi uses as their excuse for everything thereafter. they lost that tape.
the atf fucked up.
the fbi finished the job and killed the people inside ,some outside.
janet reno, bill clinton, the news media covered it up.

why can't you just admit it?
you have no problem denouncing the gov for torturing the terrorist, why can't you denounce them for killing the innocent people inside waco?
and its no conspiracy theory either, as youre hiding behind.
the fbi did kill those people, if not just who was driving those tanks that were puncturing the walls with gas and incinerating it?

i basically consider your entire last post a denial and i cop out.

i gotta stop.

Your post speaks for itself IMO.

"the fbi finished the job and killed the people inside ,some outside.."??? "janet reno, bill clinton, the news media covered it up"???

"they lost the tape"??

I'm finding it hard to take you serious after some of this nonsense...lol...

I see you've ruled out suicide by cyanide even though a similar group committed mass suicides by cyanide poisoning in 1978 huh?

You whole response would be sad if it wasn't so laughable..:rofl:

And you're not pulling my leg either...I honestly think you actually believe what you're thumbing into your responses...

BTW, why would the news be there to tape the initial interaction unless the BATF actually called them and asked them to show up. Now I could think of a whole lot of reasons why they wouldn't alert the media to execution of serving a warrant in this case. As if LEAs EVER want the media on scene like this to complicate matters even more...

And I denounce any government that tries to sanction illegal activity by fiat.

I think the whole situation in Waco was a tragedy for all involved (including the BATF and FBI) but don't get it tangled...there was on person responsible for it and that person's name wasn't Clinton or Reno.

You "gotta stop"??? Good call.

 

[meesterperfect]

yeah ok, a similar group.
davidians lived there for 50 years, never a problem.
jim jones brought 1000 people to a armed guarded compound in another country to kill them.
but yeah its similar.
you bought it.
and the atf did contact the media to film it, they did lose the tapes, which they confiscated from the media.
it was all admitted in the hearings.
so was the video of the fbi gasssing and then starting the fire.
which i'm sure you wartched given that you know so much.
and it is a good call be its obvious you know more about it than i do.