CIA Waterboarded Mohammed 183X in 1 Month, Zubaydah 83X in 1 month

[BioDefenseGrad]

Would anyone watch a "teabag" waterboarding? Or one where the chick is waterboarded by a bunch of dicks? Like strapped onto the board, eyes covered, tilted back and just clog her mouth up with weiners. See how long it takes before she tells them all she knows.

 

[Facial_King]

You can talk to the ones who think torture is ok all you want but they simply will never understand it's counter productive. All they want is revenge, it's that simple. Even they know their hatred will get them nowhere but they don't care because they don't want things to change for the better. If they did they would realize the current course of action will only lead to more hatred

Sometimes they're looking for revenge, sometimes it's punishment, and it could easily be a mix of the two, but in this case, seeing how fact-proof the pro-torture people are, I'd say some of it is pure sadism. They get off on causing pain.

 

[Boothbabe]

seeing how fact-proof the pro-torture people are, I'd say some of it is pure sadism.

I agree. So here's a question for all the pro-torture people. If highly trained interrogators with years of experience say torture doesn't produce reliable information but only leads to the ones being tortured saying what it is they think their torturers want to hear why do you think it should continue? Are you after revenge or punishment or is it pure sadism like Facial_King suggested?

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

I agree. So here's a question for all the pro-torture people. If highly trained interrogators with years of experience say torture doesn't produce reliable information but only leads to the ones being tortured saying what it is they think their torturers want to hear why do you think it should continue? Are you after revenge or punishment or is it pure sadism like Facial_King suggested?

A lot of them are being litigious. They'll say Torture doesn't work, but "High stress compliance techniques DO work." To these folks it's "tortue is illegal, therefore it doesn't work" "high stress is legal and can be sanctioned by my government, therefore it DOES work." Those techniques sanctioned by the U.S. government and complying with the Geneva conventions will be called one thing, all others not sanctioned are torture.

As for interrogation, I would really like people to tell us what we should use on HVD's who are non-compliant and have been trained to resist interrogation.

Like when we say interrogations have to follow the U.S. Army Field Manual, with a big asterisk around it because the field manual had to be updated to include other government agencies. The Average age and experience of an Army 35M is 21 years old. For a 351M it's 29 years old, and they are few and far in between. The kind of people who get waterboarded aren't going to be directly interrogated by the military. It'll be an OGA. For example, even though a Task Force apprehended Saddam, his interrogators were not Soldiers. I believe his last interrogator (who's since written a book) was an FBI agent.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Obama administration gives approval to techniques some human rights groups consider torture. No one will be waterboarded, but they'll have something else used on them.

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

I agree. So here's a question for all the pro-torture people. If highly trained interrogators with years of experience say torture doesn't produce reliable information but only leads to the ones being tortured saying what it is they think their torturers want to hear why do you think it should continue? Are you after revenge or punishment or is it pure sadism like Facial_King suggested?

I would say the non-p.c. answer is that it can and does work when used by experienced interrogators.

 

[Facial_King]

I would say the non-p.c. answer is that it can and does work when used by experienced interrogators.

Considering that the government did it, has many defenders in having done it, and such is promoted by at least one hip tv show ("24"), I'd say that is actually the politically correct answer.

 

[Hot Mega]

A lot of them are being litigious. They'll say Torture doesn't work, but "High stress compliance techniques DO work." To these folks it's "tortue is illegal, therefore it doesn't work" "high stress is legal and can be sanctioned by my government, therefore it DOES work."

It's not about being "litigious". There's no guarantee any method will work. And separately from torture being less reliable, we've also said it's inhumane and we don't want our troops subject to it by some nation state and that's why we helped to make it illegal.

As for interrogation, I would really like people to tell us what we should use on HVD's who are non-compliant and have been trained to resist interrogation.

You're acting like this is our first go 'round at this thing. Interrogation wasn't invented because of HVDs in the GWOT. There are tried and trued methods that have been established as a result of all the collective experience gleaned from dealing with POWs and enemies in the past. The question as to what should we do in a situation where someone has been trained to resist is a fairly false narrative because it presupposes waterboarding (in this case) will produce compliance. If not, what happens then? You resort to other methods of torture until you stumble upon the method that is effective? That's not a reality.

Like when we say interrogations have to follow the U.S. Army Field Manual, with a big asterisk around it because the field manual had to be updated to include other government agencies. The Average age and experience of an Army 35M is 21 years old. For a 351M it's 29 years old, and they are few and far in between. The kind of people who get waterboarded aren't going to be directly interrogated by the military. It'll be an OGA. For example, even though a Task Force apprehended Saddam, his interrogators were not Soldiers. I believe his last interrogator (who's since written a book) was an FBI agent.

In these particular cases OGAs perform the interrogation of some detainees because the intel they hope to illicit is useful to help them interdict operations beyond a battlefield. Whereas the military tends to interrogate the cases in which they've captured military because the intel likely to be obtained would be desired for tactical advantage in that specific theater of battle. Iraq had not standing military when Saddam was captured. Therefore, there wouldn't be much of a reason for him to be interrogated separately by the military IMO.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Obama administration gives approval to techniques some human rights groups consider torture. No one will be waterboarded, but they'll have something else used on them.

There is a distinction between methods that employ the intentional infliction of pain or trauma vs. subjecting a person to physical fatigue and psychological stress.

I would say the non-p.c. answer is that it can and does work when used by experienced interrogators.

The questions aren't whether or not it can or has worked in some cases. The question is whether on balance it yields more bad intel than good. In that case, the answer is unquestionably no.

 

[Hot Mega]

Correction

The questions aren't whether or not it can or has worked in some cases. The question is whether on balance it yields more good intel than bad? In that case, the answer is unquestionably no.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

Anybody that saw Daniel Pearl get his head chopped off and still has a problem with torture in the manner the U.S. did it, is heartless and stupid. Anyone who hasn't seen Daniel Pearl get his head chopped off should shut the fuck up . . . IMO.

 

[Friday on my mind]

Comparing the actions of rogue groups of criminals to sanctioned actions by governments is really comparing apples and oranges.

To all that bring up atrocities commited by criminals as justification for torture performed by the US govt I think you really are way off base.We are trying to convey that such atrocities are not to be tolerated and we are the good guys.Thats how we win this war by getting more to subscribe to that then being willing to resort to brutality to achive their goals.We undermine our own agenda when we torture.

Let me just give one more example of how govt cannnot/should not behave like the criminals they are fighting.In the US I'm sure you have all heard of criminals who perform "drive by" shootings.By your logic the govt should do the same and start doing "drive by's" of their own.

 

[Boothbabe]

Anybody that saw Daniel Pearl get his head chopped off and still has a problem with torture in the manner the U.S. did it, is heartless and stupid. Anyone who hasn't seen Daniel Pearl get his head chopped off should shut the fuck up . . . IMO.

So it's revenge you're after. I've noticed how all the pro-torture people on this board make up excuse after excuse to justify torture but no one has the balls to just come out and say you want to get even. I just hope you realize that by thinking this way you're a part of the problem.

 

[Philbert]

So it's revenge you're after. I've noticed how all the pro-torture people on this board make up excuse after excuse to justify torture but no one has the balls to just come out and say you want to get even. I just hope you realize that by thinking this way you're a part of the problem.

Boy, you take a thought and just run with it...!
No matter if there is a degree of difference between harsh or enhanced interrogation techniques and torture, you refuse to allow any space for another world that exists outside the soft one you inhabit.
Its torture if it hurts...OK, that is taken care of.
Where do you get the concept that getting even is weird, wrong, or bad? That's human nature, at least if you aren't timid and scared of just about everything.
That doesn't put all situations in that purview...goals are achieved through application of methods and actions that produce results appropriate to the desired end.
Excuses are not being offered to justify getting hard on the detainee the interrogator has in his charge...getting the job done that has been determined to be a top priority requires extraordinary effort and that's that.
No one here has anything to do with the decisions and actions taken by the people whose "job" it is to defeat the bad boys who know no restrictions to achieving their dearly-held desires to kill and maim their avowed enemies...generally any infidel on the planet...wherever they can. Your flight to wherever, the Mall where my sister is shopping, a bus going from one part of the city to another full of just people...any target that results in indiscriminate dead and dying.
There isn't any space to talk about it...and if 3 cases turn out to be a dead end life can be a bitch...one result of effective interrogation is worth all the guilt you seem to feel about not being pleasant and well-mannered to everyone.
Now, the eternal interplay outside the standard structure of declared warfare...covert action taken by special operatives against key opponents...has become a political lever used by a beleaguered new administration to divert scrutiny from the massive powergrab the Democratic Left is pulling off as fast as they can write 1000 page bills and vote them into Law.
Political power is usually a fight for dominance between one group and another...the people benefit from compromises needed by all parties to achieve their different goals.
When any power becomes unfettered, as the Democrats are now, by lack of obstruction to achieve their political goals the country loses any balance or ability to affect the outcome of rampant powergrabbing or social upheaval created by those in power.
Politicians have a vested interest in consolidating their power, and history has too many examples of things going to shit that takes generations to set right.
Keeping the population confused and unable to focus on what is actually happening is a tried and true political tactic, and worrying about these "memos" and other distractions are keeping the population from focusing on the wrongdoing running unchecked in Washington, D.C. .
See photo...

http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=Project2.94f.jpg

The economy has gone to shit around us, things are gonna be really bad for a long time, and worrying about torture/not torture has nothing to do with paying the rent. There are rank amateurs in charge, experimenting with your life and mine, and the incompetents placed in key spots are much more worrisome than the amount of bad treatment some slaughtermonkeys received somewhere and how many times they received it.

 

[Hot Mega]

Anybody that saw Daniel Pearl get his head chopped off and still has a problem with torture in the manner the U.S. did it, is heartless and stupid. Anyone who hasn't seen Daniel Pearl get his head chopped off should shut the fuck up . . . IMO.

If you think clicking on an internet link and watching any atrocity committed by these groups (not just Pearl) makes you now more wise as to what should be done, I would say you're more naive now than you think.

The Soviets tried matching the Mujahadeen atrocity for atrocity, even in some cases pouring pigs blood on them (which is considered worse than physical torture) and all that did was help to create more of them. The Soviets eventually lost.

There is very little strategic benefit to torture whether done by them or us. They demanded all sorts of things in lieu of no killing Pearl. None of their demands were met and all they ended up with was corpse.

Anyone trained to resist torture understands the first rule is not to give in to it because if you do, you're guaranteeing the next American captured after will be tortured too.

In some cases interrogating a terrorist has advantages over trying to interrogate soldiers of some country. In some cases it's easier to separate a person from their allegiance to a cause than to separate them from their allegiance to a country where they likely have family, way of life, etc. considerations.

 

[Boothbabe]

Boy, you take a thought and just run with it...!
No matter if there is a degree of difference between harsh or enhanced interrogation techniques and torture, you refuse to allow any space for another world that exists outside the soft one you inhabit.

The point I'm trying to make (and one that most Americans I know simply refuse to see or are unable to understand) is that the radical muslim terrorists we all want gone can never be defeated by the''war on terror''. Like I said before, you're not fighting against people, they are just the tool. You're fighting against a radical ideology and no matter how many muslim terrorists are killed there will always be more that rise up to take over the job.

As for torture, yes I'm against it, in any form or shape. Mainly because it's counter productive but secondly because it makes you no better than the people you are fighting against. If you think that because of that I live in a soft world so be it. Call me naive but I think (and hope) humans can change the world for the better because I also believe humans are basically good. I do my part to change my little part of the world for the better and if I give on the hope the world can be a better place what's the point of living.

 

[Hot Mega]

There isn't any space to talk about it...and if 3 cases turn out to be a dead end life can be a bitch...one result of effective interrogation is worth all the guilt you seem to feel about not being pleasant and well-mannered to everyone.

When any power becomes unfettered, as the Democrats are now, by lack of obstruction to achieve their political goals the country loses any balance or ability to affect the outcome of rampant powergrabbing or social upheaval created by those in power.

Politicians have a vested interest in consolidating their power, and history has too many examples of things going to shit that takes generations to set right.

Keeping the population confused and unable to focus on what is actually happening is a tried and true political tactic, and worrying about these "memos" and other distractions are keeping the population from focusing on the wrongdoing running unchecked in Washington, D.C. .

The economy has gone to shit around us, things are gonna be really bad for a long time, and worrying about torture/not torture has nothing to do with paying the rent. There are rank amateurs in charge, experimenting with your life and mine, and the incompetents placed in key spots are much more worrisome than the amount of bad treatment some slaughtermonkeys received somewhere and how many times they received it.

First of all it's a little more complicated than merely saying..."whoopsie, we had 2 or 3 bad leads. Bad leads not only make you less safe in pursuit of them, the divert resources. What do you think happened in most cases where false leads indicated some target was some place he wasn't. Some group need to be assembled, a plan developed and then the plan executed. Aside from jeopardy you put this group in, these are people you don't have available for other necessary ops.

When did you notice the economy going to shit? Before Obama or after Obama?? Also I assume you expressed similar concerns about power consolidation when GOPers ran all 3 branches of government huh? And the Bush administration was running around trying to advance this (non existent) notion of the unitary executive under the (again non existent) premise that if a president says it's legal, then it's legal.

Do you guys just make up reality as you go?? The last thing Obama wants is to have is the public forum dominated by an issue he isn't managing. He nor any POTUS wants their agenda items sidetracked by old news. And if he was trying to ramrod all these nefarious schemes down our throats behind our backs...he's doing terrible job hiding it by being out talking them up every other day. I'm confused, is he distracting us with the "free" stuff or is he distracting us from the fact that he's giving us the "free" stuff by distracting us with the torture stuff:updown:

 

[Philbert]

Well, sorry to say, the only rational statement I was able to find in that jumble of confusion and misstatements is this...

I assume ... I'm confused...:updown:

 

[georges]

Mr P I know you said all that sarcastically but I have to tell you that almost all the experts in interrogation would say that the far more effective way of getting true infornation from a subject is what you mention at the end of your post.The only time the harsher methods should be used as they are far less reliable is when you have the situation known as the ticking time bomb scenario where time is of the esscence.Thay may not suit some who want to use the interrogation as a way to exact revenge and retribution against the subjects but really those kinds of emotional motivations have no place is such serious matters do they? When people talk of horror stories of abuses performed as an example under the saddam regime lets keep in mind those were not instances of trying to gather info but just pure examples of brutality for brutalities sake.With maybe the only real bigger message sent to some others being carefull or you may be next.Is that what you want us to be?:dunno:

The softie methods are not productive. Free the terrorists and they will kill you back in return. But this isn't astonishing when you have a government where there is the clinton bitch, nancy pelosi, emmanuel rahm, and daddy o kissing the iranian's ass as well the UN's ass, you have a weak America. Why do you systematically need to show mercy and be symathetic to scum? Is that what life has learned you? Terrorists, like criminals and gang members are scum, scum is a danger and if you don't eradicate it, it pollutes the streets. It is not a matter of emotional motivations but rather a matter of pragmatism and preserving the safety of the country. When a threat or a foe is detected, it must be neutralized for once and for all.

 

[bustybbwlover]

isolating the US from the world doesn't make for a strong america either. ignoring iran and north korea has done nothing towards making them any less dangerous. so i would disagree that engaging with the 'axis of evil' will make for a world that is less safe. on the other hand i don't expect it to necessarily make the US any safer either but it's better than burying our head in the sand. as for torture, why do something that will make the rest of the world distance itself from us? how could that help?

 

[Hot Mega]

The softie methods are not productive.

you have a weak America. Why do you systematically need to show mercy and be symathetic to scum? Is that what life has learned you?

We recently had a US hostage held captive by pirates...we put bullets in their heads, paid no ransom and rescued our citizen. Heretofore, I'm not aware of any similar circumstances that were as successful.

That's pretty good for a "weak" country showing mercy to "scum".

Rhetoric sounds good but I'd prefer results.

 

[meesterperfect]

Whether any of you agree or disagree with temporary suffocation to obtain info from a mass murderer who caused thousands of innocent civilians to be incinerated alive, jump to their deaths, crushed to death, plus the terror they experienced before their painful deaths, children to grow up without a parent,familys ruined, and an unmeasurable amount of emotional pain and heartbreak please realize one thing:

This is a tactic of diversion/distraction by the Obama administration and the news media to make THE PEOPLE lose track of the real problems the country is currently having.

Day 1: media reports obama's approval rating is dropping.
Day 2: his people come up with a plan and contact the media.
Day 3: media reports this story.
Day 4 : media reports Obamas approval rating is high.

And we all lived happily ever after.