CIA Waterboarded Mohammed 183X in 1 Month, Zubaydah 83X in 1 month

[Philbert]

ditto to the "West" standing up to the Evangelical kooks.

And yet...we seem to always have been successful in doing so...we still have separation of Church and state, abortion, Evolution being taught as science, etc...while the Islamic world keeps falling further and further down the well of Sh'ria .
Not even a similarity there...
Whenever an abortion clinic is destroyed, or a Doctor killed, the perps are hunted down and put where the sun shines an hour a day.

 

[Facetious]

ditto to the "West" standing up to the Evangelical kooks.

I've yet to be confronted in all my . . . my . . uh, well, however old I am

Why can't they find me ?

Do they hit you up for a couple of singles ($1) . . what ? :dunno:

 

[D-rock]

not at all friday.
yes you are correct that saddams examples were more for toture for tortures sake that actually to obtain info.
brutality.
And it may seem by my writing that i want revenge in the form of torture but thatis not the case.
I want whats best for national security of the people, the children
So if i must decide over the potential death of many more civilians or even military or the pain a mass murdering religious jihad kill the infidel terrorist might go through, i'll go with the torture everytime.
Its not personal,not revenge, its about getting info that may save lives.

I just can't believe that people of today would pity a terrorist mass murderer and condemn people who are trying to protect them and save lives.
What needs to happen to get people to understand?
Another attack, even bigger this time.?

And to everybody living:
This is just a democrat/media smokescreen.
nothing more.
The people of the US, many at least are not pleased with obamas actions.
So the democrat/media makes the TOP STORY this week about hating BUSH again and those evil republicans.
Taking focus off whats really happening.
Smoke screen, diversion.

You didn't just bust out the, "Think of the children" line did you? :rofl:

Has it ever occurred to you that by letting your country sink so low and by letting what you do corrupt it's basic principles your destroying the very thing your trying to protect in the first place? Did you ever consider that resorting to evil to fix problems will make the world a worse place to live even if at first the effects are just subtle? Evil just leads to more evil and it continues further spiraling down affecting the world more with each turn. You know, the world all those children will have to grow up and live in someday that your somehow trying to protect. I want future generations to grow up in a country and world that's worth living in.

I don't really like him but maybe it's like McCain once said about us using these types tactics, "It's not about them. It's about us."

 

[bustybbwlover]

Taking focus off whats really happening.
Smoke screen, diversion.

sorta like the war in iraq was and is? on point tho, the whole problem with the 'terrorists treat americans bad so we should treat them bad too ' argument is that they're not a nation, we are. while an individual or group people have no need to act within the law, a nation does have a requirement to act within it's own laws and international law as well. unless of course we want the rest of the world to think we're a lying two-faced full of shit nation....

 

[meesterperfect]

It seems to me a lot of people in America still don't get it. You're not fighting against people, people are just the tool. You're fighting against a mindset, an idea. Instead of creating conditions wich allow terrorism to flourish you should be building bridges. If you really want peace, that's the only way to go.

bb, this isnt a muslim vs US thing, its a muslim terrorist vs. US thing.
the ones who were tortured were involved in a serious terrorist plot that killed thousands and changed the world.
There is no building bridges with the men with the black sheets covering their heads. They want us dead and our country destroyed, aint nothing gonna change that fact.
And if regular non violent muslims get upset over what we do to the murderers who attacked us in order to obtain info to prevent more attacks well then they are not our friends anyway.

So who are you agreeing with: Facial King, or baconsalts?

I must admit, I dont get it.....jag did, but not me.
maybe i shouldn't have use sarcasm against facial, but oh well.

You didn't just bust out the, "Think of the children" line did you? :rofl:

Has it ever occurred to you that by letting your country sink so low and by letting what you do corrupt it's basic principles your destroying the very thing your trying to protect in the first place? Did you ever consider that resorting to evil to fix problems will make the world a worse place to live even if at first the effects are just subtle? Evil just leads to more evil and it continues further spiraling down affecting the world more with each turn. You know, the world all those children will have to grow up and live in someday that your somehow trying to protect. I want future generations to grow up in a country and world that's worth living in.

I don't really like him but maybe it's like McCain once said about us using these types tactics, "It's not about them. It's about us."

yes D i suppose I did.
And I believe in this case it applies.
We seem to disagree about what should be done to obtain info to protect the people. Its not revenge, its prevention. I cant think of a better way to get that other than extreme methods.

sorta like the war in iraq was and is?

I'm not sure. but its two different things.
And with all thats happening and needs to be done I can't see why the democrats are focusing on prosecuting cia folks other than to divert attention on his recent actions and the reactions of the people of the US , and the world.
Its like "oh no, many are starting to realize I tricked them, best remind them how evil bush was".

And youre wrong, this isn't an eye for an eye thing,again its about protecting innocent people and saving the future of the country from some very bad things.

 

[Hot Mega]

This is just a democrat/media smokescreen.
nothing more.
The people of the US, many at least are not pleased with obamas actions.
So the democrat/media makes the TOP STORY this week about hating BUSH again and those evil republicans.
Taking focus off whats really happening.
Smoke screen, diversion.

You're kidding right? Obama is polling in the 60 percent approval range for an entire quarter. A POTUS hasn't polled in the that range for a quarter since the '90s.

Other than the Fox crowd, Fox hosts and radio blowhards...who is not pleased with Obama's actions??

 

[meesterperfect]

You're kidding right? Obama is polling in the 60 percent approval range for an entire quarter. A POTUS hasn't polled in the that range for a quarter since the '90s.

Other than the Fox crowd, Fox hosts and radio blowhards...who is not pleased with Obama's actions??

the other 40%

You didn't just bust out the, "Think of the children" line did you? :rofl:

Has it ever occurred to you that by letting your country sink so low and by letting what you do corrupt it's basic principles your destroying the very thing your trying to protect in the first place? Did you ever consider that resorting to evil to fix problems will make the world a worse place to live even if at first the effects are just subtle? Evil just leads to more evil and it continues further spiraling down affecting the world more with each turn. You know, the world all those children will have to grow up and live in someday that your somehow trying to protect. I want future generations to grow up in a country and world that's worth living in.

I don't really like him but maybe it's like McCain once said about us using these types tactics, "It's not about them. It's about us."

you are a very smart guy D.I see your point and agree. It sucks that we have to do this, but they forced us to. I think that should be considered.

 

[Hot Mega]

the other 40%

Wrongo! 64 pct Approve 28 pct disapprove (coincidentally the same amount that still for some reason thought Bush was doing job) 8 pct undecided.

Sorry.....

 

[meesterperfect]

ok mega......I was just messin with ya.
I am glad you post here, but we just disagree on this matter.

 

[Hot Mega]

ok mega......I was just messin with ya.
I am glad you post here, but we just disagree on this matter.

Reasonable people disagree all the time. Torture is like pregnancy, there is no little bit of it....

 

[Boothbabe]

I'm generally all about building bridges, as idealistic as that sounds, but not at the cost of my liberties

But you have no problem giving up your liberties so your government can continue to wage the war on terror....

There is no building bridges with the men with the black sheets covering their heads.

And I'm not talking about them. The ones the US should be building bridges with are the peacefull muslims and especially the ones of the younger generation who are being influenced by radical muslims.

now tell me that waterboarding is torture compared to that and you sir are out of your fucking mind! Seems pretty tame in comparison. So yes, we should continue to waterboard these detainees. Hell maybe we should even step it up a notch!

what exactly do you not understand about the fact that torture does not produce reliable evidence? Are you really that thick or is it revenge you're after?

Yep. I have no problem with torturing these animals. Keep this country safe.

If anything, it will make your country less safe.

 

[Hot Mega]

"The CIA Waterboarded Mohammed 183X in 1 Month, Zubaydah 83X in 1 month"

Is it just me or does the suggestion these two were waterboarded that many times almost make it obvious the tactic doesn't work.

What fool attempts the same method of obtaining a result that has failed 80 previous times??

Unless you're trying to force a person to concede to what you want them to say.

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

"The CIA Waterboarded Mohammed 183X in 1 Month, Zubaydah 83X in 1 month"

Is it just me or does the suggestion these two were waterboarded that many times almost make it obvious the tactic doesn't work.

What fool attempts the same method of obtaining a result that has failed 80 previous times??

Unless you're trying to force a person to concede to what you want them to say.

Don't know. If you worked in the U.S. Bank Tower (formerly Library Tower) in Los Angeles (according to sources, an attack was foiled because of these "unethical" tactics), You Might think otherwise. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-02-09-bush_x.htm

You can bitch and moan all you want, but we all know what people want to do to Americans: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVWzmEcCssU

 

[Hot Mega]

Don't know. If you worked in the U.S. Bank Tower (formerly Library Tower) in Los Angeles (according to sources, an attack was foiled because of these "unethical" tactics), You Might think otherwise. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-02-09-bush_x.htm

You can bitch and moan all you want, but we all know what people want to do to Americans:

"Bush said"....no reasonable person takes the phrase "Bush says" or what Cheney says seriously. These two lie and mislead almost every time they breathe IMO.

I would advise you to see evidence of what these clowns allege first before you go swallowing their whole fishing pole with the hook again.

They have zero credibility and it's been proven time and time again they will say anything facts be damned.

But practically speaking, it's highly unlikely the scenario of KSM being waterboarded then him disclosing details of some plot. If you believe that, you've been watching too many tv shows and movies. I say this as among other things a SERE Level C.

As far as me being able to "bitch and moan", I've been all over this world in defense of my country and done things on your behalf that have at least earned me the right to "bitch and moan" more than probably the average American.....(you're welcome).

Now to the point, most people (including myself) familiar with waterboarding as an interrogation method understand that it doesn't work for yielding credible intelligence. It does work for getting someone to say what you want them to say and that's about it.

Most military and intelligence experts with no political agenda know this doesn't work and actually hurts efforts....they even advised against it...but here we have yet another example of inexperienced suits dictating tactics to the experts.

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

"Bush said"....no reasonable person takes the phrase "Bush says" or what Cheney says seriously. These two lie and mislead almost every time they breathe IMO.

I would advise you to see evidence of what these clowns allege first before you go swallowing their whole fishing pole with the hook again.

They have zero credibility and it's been proven time and time again they will say anything facts be damned.

But practically speaking, it's highly unlikely the scenario of KSM being waterboarded then him disclosing details of some plot. If you believe that, you've been watching too many tv shows and movies. I say this as among other things a SERE Level C.

As far as me being able to "bitch and moan", I've been all over this world in defense of my country and done things on your behalf that have at least earned me the right to "bitch and moan" more than probably the average American.....(you're welcome).

Now to the point, most people (including myself) familiar with waterboarding as an interrogation method understand that it doesn't work for yielding credible intelligence. It does work for getting someone to say what you want them to say and that's about it.

Most military and intelligence experts with no political agenda know this doesn't work and actually hurts efforts....they even advised against it...but here we have yet another example of inexperienced suits dictating tactics to the experts.

Well, we'll never really know, will we. So, you distrust the government on certain issues (like this one), but you are selective on others, as a liberal (I believe you have been vocal about trusting the government to take guns from people; for government to run health care, universally; to progressively tax, in addition to many other things). No to digress, but...just pointing that out. Like I said, we'll never know.

 

[Hot Mega]

Well, we'll never really know, will we. So, you distrust the government on certain issues (like this one), but you are selective on others,

No. We WILL know I suspect in short order. And I'm distrustful of ANYONE who has proven to be distrustful on many occasions in the past (i.e. Bush and Cheney).

I don't inherently distrust my government, I distrust officials who lie and mislead. As an American patriot, I like many people in not just the US but all around the world supported GWB after 9/11...but when it was clear that he had been and was being blatantly untruthful and deliberately misleading, I couldn't see myself or anyone else of any degree of ethical fortitude carrying water for that sap anymore.

A person has to be ignorant or suspend a whole lot personal character and intelligence to defend some of what he's likely done with a straight face.

But if you believe in torture...just say that. Don't try and convince reasonable people that waterboarding isn't torture with a straight face.

If you believe that Bush or any POTUS has the right to decide to invade another country if he wants to and his word is justification enough...then just say that. But don't try and convince reasonable people that a guy who didn't even control two thirds of his own country posed an imminent threat to the most powerful nation this world has ever witnessed.

If you believe it's okay for a POTUS or his admin to out a person the CIA says has NOC status just because they want to...then just say that. But don't try and convince reasonable people that she's not a NOC when the people who pay her to do what she does says she is?

The list goes on and on...

 

[Facial_King]

Okay people, time to get serious (and no that doesn't mean I'm gonna chain you to a wall and slap you around!). Here's an op-ed in the NYTimes by the very guy who interrogated Abu Zubaydah.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23soufan.html?_r=2&ref=opinion

Excerpt (highlighting mine):

"One of the most striking parts of the memos is the false premises on which they are based. The first, dated August 2002, grants authorization to use harsh interrogation techniques on a high-ranking terrorist, Abu Zubaydah, on the grounds that previous methods hadn’t been working. The next three memos cite the successes of those methods as a justification for their continued use.

It is inaccurate, however, to say that Abu Zubaydah had been uncooperative. Along with another F.B.I. agent, and with several C.I.A. officers present, I questioned him from March to June 2002, before the harsh techniques were introduced later in August. Under traditional interrogation methods, he provided us with important actionable intelligence.

We discovered, for example, that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. Abu Zubaydah also told us about Jose Padilla, the so-called dirty bomber. This experience fit what I had found throughout my counterterrorism career: traditional interrogation techniques are successful in identifying operatives, uncovering plots and saving lives.

There was no actionable intelligence gained from using enhanced interrogation techniques on Abu Zubaydah that wasn’t, or couldn’t have been, gained from regular tactics. In addition, I saw that using these alternative methods on other terrorists backfired on more than a few occasions — all of which are still classified. The short sightedness behind the use of these techniques ignored the unreliability of the methods, the nature of the threat, the mentality and modus operandi of the terrorists, and due process."

 

[Hot Mega]

Okay people, time to get serious (and no that doesn't mean I'm gonna chain you to a wall and slap you around!). Here's an op-ed in the NYTimes by the very guy who interrogated Abu Zubaydah.

Mr. "messenger", prepare to get shot. Don't you know that the NYTimes is on the Obama payroll??:spin::turnturn:

 

[Legzman]

what exactly do you not understand about the fact that torture does not produce reliable evidence? Are you really that thick or is it revenge you're after?

My whole point is that I don't understand why we should treat them better than they treat us when we are captured. NO ONE has explained that to me yet!

 

[Hot Mega]

My whole point is that I don't understand why we should treat them better than they treat us when we are captured. NO ONE has explained that to me yet!

That's like asking why cops treat murderers better than the people who were murdered by them.

What purpose would it serve us to saw some guy's head off who would just as soon blow himself up if he could take 5 Americans with him?

Further as to the reason why specifically, we're not a banana republic (yet). We have laws that we live by and part of that means we try suspected criminals, convict them if a judge or jury agrees with the evidence against them, then we punish them.

That doesn't change based on the severity of the crime. And while torturing some terrorist because we're mad about what they did may make some of us feel good for a time, it does nothing to aid us in defeating their cause.

Lastly, WE DON'T TORTURE primarily because while we're fighting against a particularly brutal enemy without uniforms or a flag this time....that may not always be the case. We pushed for the Geneva Convention and were the architects of many of it's tenets in order to protect our troops and to have grounds for redress if they are subjected to torture.

How do we stand up against our troops being tortured by some nation state when we're saying it's okay??

It's okay to torture?? What if it's the case that the Iranians made Roxana Saberi confess by means of torture? Would we honor such a confession???

Couldn't you imagine this woman if she is just a reporter being waterboarded until she admitted she was a spy???