CIA Waterboarded Mohammed 183X in 1 Month, Zubaydah 83X in 1 month

[Facial_King]

Don't know. If you worked in the U.S. Bank Tower (formerly Library Tower) in Los Angeles (according to sources, an attack was foiled because of these "unethical" tactics), you might think otherwise. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-02-09-bush_x.htm

That's crap:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/04/thiessens-la-tower-canard.html

"In a White House press briefing, Bush's counterterrorism chief, Frances Fragos Townsend, told reporters that the cell leader was arrested in February 2002, and "at that point, the other members of the cell" (later arrested) "believed that the West Coast plot has been canceled, was not going forward" [italics mine]. A subsequent fact sheet released by the Bush White House states, "In 2002, we broke up [italics mine] a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast." These two statements make clear that however far the plot to attack the Library Tower ever got—an unnamed senior FBI official would later tell the Los Angeles Times that Bush's characterization of it as a "disrupted plot" was "ludicrous"—that plot was foiled in 2002. But Sheikh Mohammed wasn't captured until March 2003."

oops!

:wave2:

 

[meesterperfect]

ok, whether i think water boarding is sometimes necessary or not is irrelevent when I ask some of you, why do you feel so strongly about this?
simple question.
These men who were waterboarded caused an unmeasurable amount of pain and suffering, both physical and emotional.

So wheres the outrage or even acknowledgement about that?
Hussien tortured millions, and now he doesn't thanks to the USA.
Wheres the outrage or acknoweldgement about that?

I believe its selective outrage.
You just love to take the rap, mayrter syndrome?
If you reallydon't want PEOPLE to suffer then you would see that sometimes you must do things that are not necessarily pleasant in order to spare people from that suffering.
This is one of those cases.

 

[Hot Mega]

ok, whether i think water boarding is sometimes necessary or not is irrelevent when I ask some of you, why do you feel so strongly about this?
simple question.
These men who were waterboarded caused an unmeasurable amount of pain and suffering, both physical and emotional.

So wheres the outrage or even acknowledgement about that?
Hussien tortured millions, and now he doesn't thanks to the USA.
Wheres the outrage or acknoweldgement about that?

I believe its selective outrage.
You just love to take the rap, mayrter syndrome?
If you reallydon't want PEOPLE to suffer then you would see that sometimes you must do things that are not necessarily pleasant in order to spare people from that suffering.
This is one of those cases.

Who doesn't know terrorists cause death and destruction? Why would someone need to acknowledge that?

Who doesn't know there are despots in the world who do bad things to their people... but it's not US nor should it ever be US doing it.

Our GDP isn't big enough go around the world knocking off every despot who commits human rights violations then rebuilding their country at taxpayer expense. THEREFORE we ought to be reserving such action to when it's absolutely necessary and critical to the protection of the US and our proximate alliances.

The reason why I have so much opposition to it is because in my experience, in the experience of many others who are qualified to speak on it, sanctioning torture A.) Jeopardizes our troops B.) Doesn't work C.) Actually makes things worse. And D.) Is against US and International Law.

Understanding that, why wouldn't any reasonable person be against it??

 

[Boothbabe]

My whole point is that I don't understand why we should treat them better than they treat us when we are captured. NO ONE has explained that to me yet!

Because you do want things to change for the better....right? Hatred only leads to more hatred and will never result in something positive.

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

That's crap:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/04/thiessens-la-tower-canard.html

"In a White House press briefing, Bush's counterterrorism chief, Frances Fragos Townsend, told reporters that the cell leader was arrested in February 2002, and "at that point, the other members of the cell" (later arrested) "believed that the West Coast plot has been canceled, was not going forward" [italics mine]. A subsequent fact sheet released by the Bush White House states, "In 2002, we broke up [italics mine] a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast." These two statements make clear that however far the plot to attack the Library Tower ever got—an unnamed senior FBI official would later tell the Los Angeles Times that Bush's characterization of it as a "disrupted plot" was "ludicrous"—that plot was foiled in 2002. But Sheikh Mohammed wasn't captured until March 2003."

oops!

:wave2:

Brooklyn Bridge

 

[NavyBlue]

So according to meesterperfect and Phil, torture is ok if it's done by US toward the terrorists? I don't think ANY exception should be made to allow torture. If you do that you are going down a very slippery slope that you will never come out of. US isn't like China, N. Korea, or Iran. It does not need to use torture and if it does then it's no better than any of the countries accused of human rights violations around the world. There's simply no justifications for it. None.

 

[Hot Mega]

Brooklyn Bridge

Iyman Faris plead guilty in that probe, gave up allot on valuable intel and to my knowledge he never saw a single waterboard.

Next?

 

[Shindekudasai]

Hats off to you, who still try to give this discussion meaning, Boothbabe, NavyBlue, Hot Mega...
But it obviously makes no sense discussing this with some Americans. And the fact that this opinion seems to be considered just in a large part of the american public and that truth, laws and morality will get twisted in every possible way to be always in the right doesn't paint a good picture of the contemporary moral standards. If Iran did someting like that, they'd be ruthless animals, fanatics and lunatics. Well, take a look in the mirror. Or to make another "comparison", a hateful little man call Ahmadinedschad once (when posed the question what his standpoint towards homosexuality was) said "In Iran, we don’t have homosexuals.". Well, that attitude kinda reminds me of some Americans. Talk about bigotry and hypocrisy.
If this "degeneration" goes on like this, things like these are just one more step towards the fall into obscurity for a once "great nation", if you ask me. The time in which many countries looked up to the US for its democratic values and morality is obviously long gone.

 

[Facial_King]

Iyman Faris plead guilty in that probe, gave up allot on valuable intel and to my knowledge he never saw a single waterboard.

Next?

He's a slippery fellow, that bloodshot scott, isn't he?

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

Iyman Faris plead guilty in that probe, gave up allot on valuable intel and to my knowledge he never saw a single waterboard.

Next?

Just throwin it out there. :sing:

Seriously, II trust the goverment a lot less than the garden variety lib will ever come close to. I think: the less, the better. Quite the contrary to lefties. In this thread i'm just playin' devils advocate.

 

[Hot Mega]

Just throwin it out there. :sing:

Seriously, II trust the goverment a lot less than the garden variety lib will ever come close to. I think: the less, the better. Quite the contrary to lefties. In this thread i'm just playin' devils advocate.

You were getting like the guy on "My Cousin Vinny" who kept showing up with the phony $200 there for a minute.

Again, there's no reason for me to inherently distrust government in general. I distrust individuals in government or anywhere else who repeatedly lie and mislead. Bush, Cheney and many in their regime have more than proven to be completely without credibility and obviously have shown they will claim anything at anytime. The people at Fox look like fools (to normal people) interviewing a guy like Cheney after this fool has damn near lied about every significant situation in government. Honestly, what can ever be gleaned from interviewing Cheney when lying apparently comes as easy to him as breathing??

I doubt you were playing d/a...you were doing your best based on all the lying and misleading you've apparently fallen for. But this is what happens when the debate isn't on Fox where false narratives don't work and the opposing point of view isn't being paid off to sandbag.

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

You were getting like the guy on "My Cousin Vinny" who kept showing up with the phony $200 there for a minute.

Again, there's no reason for me to inherently distrust government in general. I distrust individuals in government or anywhere else who repeatedly lie and mislead. Bush, Cheney and many in their regime have more than proven to be completely without credibility and obviously have shown they will claim anything at anytime. The people at Fox look like fools (to normal people) interviewing a guy like Cheney after this fool has damn near lied about every significant situation in government. Honestly, what can ever be gleaned from interviewing Cheney when lying apparently comes as easy to him as breathing??

I doubt you were playing d/a...you were doing your best based on all the lying and misleading you've apparently fallen for. But this is what happens when the debate isn't on Fox where false narratives don't work and the opposing point of view isn't being paid off to sandbag.

I trust Fox about as much as I trust MSNBC or CNN for that matter. And the sooner the NY Times goes out of business the better. Were'nt all these mediums the ones who sold us the Iraq war, for example?

 

[CunningStunts]

I could give a rats ass about the CIA torturing some Jihadist... If anything, we should just let some of our "allies" do it for us since we are the only ones playing by any rules these days.

 

[Hot Mega]

Were'nt all these mediums the ones who sold us the Iraq war, for example?

No. That was the Bush administration who sold everyone from the congress to the media to you on the Iraq war. The media in most cases report news, they don't (or shouldn't) create it like this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jfffjkTieo

 

[Manalishi]

Their only mistake was not actually drowning them.....

 

[Hot Mega]

I could give a rats ass about the CIA torturing some Jihadist... If anything, we should just let some of our "allies" do it for us since we are the only ones playing by any rules these days.

Criminals don't play by the "rules" countries do. When the government of Iraq under Saddam captured our troops, we're they tortured?

In fact, they even took the ones needing medical care to the hospital.

 

[deltaoscarbravo]

Or slipped to the level of our Japanese enemies (WWII)whom we accused of torture for waterboarding & punished with severe prison sentences & (even hanging according to John McCain):



http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834


According to those tortured, like McCain was, a person will give more misleading & downright false infromation if it would get the torturer to stop.

Sophisticated interrogation techniques, ascertain more reliable information and intelligence.
Waterboarding/solitary confinement : extreme acts of torture renders little or no useful information.

Lets call a spade a spade : the CIA were engaged in acts of revenge rather than trying to ascertain actual information.
No information gathered from Guantanemo has managed to slow down the distintegration of Iraq, the ongoing turmoil that is Afghanistan or the recent destablisation that is now confronting pakistan.

Cheney and the other muppets will try to tell you that their tactics have kept the USA safe.
That's simply another lie.

 

[deltaoscarbravo]

What the hell was "president" Obama smoking when he decided to put a stop to that kind of interrogation? He should let the interrogation experts do their job with all their tools at their disposal and let them at their discretion decided how far to go when interrogating some terroritst, whether it's saying "please, pretty please" or all the way to showering him with boiling oil. I personally trust the experts more than someone who has never been involved in the intelligence service, neither have I, so I leave the intelligence gathering bussiness to the intelligence gathering people, without tying a hand behind their back.

The problem with your statement above - is that no intelligence gathered has managed to stabilise Iraq, Afghanistan or now Pakistan.
No interlligence gathered managed to prevent Bali, Madrid, London either.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, I don't believe the U.S. is lowering itself by allowing interrogators to waterboard KSM or any of his minions. We are not lowering ourselves, THEY are pulling us down to theirs.

So two wrongs, make a right?

Imagine, you're a boxer, and you want to fight by the rules of boxing, but a guy trips you up and fights you in the floor, you can't use the rules of boxing there, he wants to fight in the floor you got to learn to fight in the floor.

This boxing analogy is ridiculous.

If the US had not supplied the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan - in the US proxy war against USSR during the 1980's - it may have been wiser and far safer.

 

[deltaoscarbravo]

I wish that here in America we would stay the fuck out of other peoples business.

Slowly the penny's starting to drop.

 

[Boothbabe]

You can talk to the ones who think torture is ok all you want but they simply will never understand it's counter productive. All they want is revenge, it's that simple. Even they know their hatred will get them nowhere but they don't care because they don't want things to change for the better. If they did they would realize the current course of action will only lead to more hatred