War, what is it good for?

[Mr. Daystar]

I always felt that was a huge advantage for guys like the Indian Armed Forces. They aren't tied down for procurement, so if you look at their inventory, they literally have Russian British, French, Israeli and of course, US jets/helicopters, tanks, etc, along with some Indian designs too.

You not only can take advantage of whatever vehicles are best for the job, but your soldiers are also well prepared since they've been trained on vehicles that the enemy is likely to use. They know the ins & outs and capabilities of every vehicle they encounter.

... or at least, on paper. The reality is that they more of a "jack of all trades, master of none" - just look at their military scorecard and it's not too impressive. But if they did get their shit together, or another country with a competent military training regimen had that kind of inventory, it could be a formidable force.

But it also means the burden of multiple types of munitions, and calibers. That's why NATO forces all use the same caliber rifle, and side arm. For instance, a NATO .30 cal. is a 7.62mmx51mm round, it can also be called a .308 Winchester, although there is a VERY slight difference between then. Old Russian AK47's fire a .30cal. round too, it's 7.62mmx39mm, and they also used a 7.62mmx54mm round, none of these bullets can fit in any other rifle, and if you try, it will be unpleasant. Now the actual slug, the 7.62mm part, can be pulled off of one, and reinserted on another shell, but it has to be seated at a certain depth, so it gets very involved, or can get that way. I doubt you can hang Russian missiles from underwing pylons, of American fighters, and vice versa, I do understand your thinking though, the only thing is, in the heat of battle, mistakes can happen in the blink of an eye, and mistakes involving things that explode, are never good.
I just read somewhere one of the South American countries just bought a bunch of planes from Sweden, and I have no idea if they're compatible with NATO munitions, but if they aren't, and Sweden and this country have a falling out, then they basically bought 40 fighter jet paper weights.

 

[tvstrip]

But it also means the burden of multiple types of munitions, and calibers. That's why NATO forces all use the same caliber rifle, and side arm. For instance, a NATO .30 cal. is a 7.62mmx51mm round, it can also be called a .308 Winchester, although there is a VERY slight difference between then. Old Russian AK47's fire a .30cal. round too, it's 7.62mmx39mm, and they also used a 7.62mmx54mm round, none of these bullets can fit in any other rifle, and if you try, it will be unpleasant. Now the actual slug, the 7.62mm part, can be pulled off of one, and reinserted on another shell, but it has to be seated at a certain depth, so it gets very involved, or can get that way. I doubt you can hang Russian missiles from underwing pylons, of American fighters, and vice versa, I do understand your thinking though, the only thing is, in the heat of battle, mistakes can happen in the blink of an eye, and mistakes involving things that explode, are never good.
I just read somewhere one of the South American countries just bought a bunch of planes from Sweden, and I have no idea if they're compatible with NATO munitions, but if they aren't, and Sweden and this country have a falling out, then they basically bought 40 fighter jet paper weights.

Good points. The ammunition thing was a factor in the WWII Pacific theatre, where the US firearms all used the same ammunition, while the Japanese guns had several types. Bad enough that that you're cut off from supplies defending an islnd, but even worse when the ammo you do have left won't work in the guns you're using. That thought process carried over into NATO and I'm guessing the Soviet bloc as well.

That's why I added the caveat that the Indian forces are incompetent to utilize this advantage. Like you pointed out, there is A LOT of coordination/logistics that you need, and just looking at how the country is run, you can tell that ain't happening. What's really scary is that they have nukes too...

Kinda like having a box full of chargers and cables, and not having the specific adapter you need to charge your device LOL

 

[Mr. Daystar]

Well, there's also the revenue stream. NATO uses American arms, because we sell them our products. Russia, I'm sure, has the same reason. We/they, sell a shit ton of our slightly outdated high tech equipment, a little current tech, and a metric shit ton of small arms, and ammo. Billions flow in, gets laundered in black ops projects, and no one is the wiser. In the long run. One of the worse things that Regan did, was bankrupt Russia. A year later, every middle eastern country was overflowing with surplus tanks, Migs, and enough AK's to fill up the dead sea. In fact Egypt bought a whole factory for AK production. That's one of the reasons there are more AK47's in the world, then anyone knows what to do with. If you're a gun person, and anyone wants to sell you a Matta AK47, snag it, it's the last of the true Russian AK's, and will continue to rise in value. So will H&K (German), and Galil (Israel).

 

[tvstrip]

Putin may soon officially declare war on Ukraine, US and Western officials say
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/worl...raine-us-and-western-officials-say/ar-AAWR82h

...well duh.

 

[Orban89]

NATO x RUSSIA: what if a direct war breaks out?​

​

 

[Mr. Daystar]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russias-strategic-bombers-carry-nuclear-093600417.html

I thought this was a pretty good article. I put it here, because although not directly related to current events, it is about warfare.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/stolen-dollars-dumb-generals-nv-140000177.html

And this one is disturbing.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/russian-state-tv-threatens-annihilate-164100861.html

This is special.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-...en-men-and-children-in-ukraine-224021315.html

This kind of vile shit doesn't sit well with me, but, I'm sure anybody on this site finds it just as vile. Unfortunately, not only is it really fucked up, but I'm afraid it's also the type of thing that will draw this country in deeper.

 

[tvstrip]

And this one is disturbing.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/russian-state-tv-threatens-annihilate-164100861.html

This is special.

The irony that when NATO even hints at some kind of intervention, the ruskies find it dammingly provocative and threatening, yet they have no problem with issuing threats of literal nuclear holocausts.

Reminds me of how MTG is fine with calling for the lynching of others while blows a gasket when someone jokes about someone slapping her.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/zaporizhzhia-region-russian-troops-shell-055003398.html

If this is true, and starts to spread, and become common, it's only a matter of time, before fratricide begins, and things take a drastic turn. The problem is, it could send putin into a psychotic rage, and push him into a corner with nukes. I fear, that's the more likely path. He clearly has a VERY hitleresque mentality, but with better firepower.

 

[tvstrip]

Interestingly, the above story is linked to this one, showing that the Ukrainians aren't infallible either
Mariupol defenders tell how the commander of marines fled the city
https://news.yahoo.com/mariupol-defenders-tell-commander-marines-120905296.html

One could run away like a coward, think only of one's own life, but not think about one's own duty, the oath that one took upon oneself. This is exactly what happened to the commander of the Marines of the 36th Brigade. He simply refused to carry out the order that was issued to him.

And he tried to flee the city with a small group of working tanks, armoured combat vehicles, [and] ammunition

 

[Mr. Daystar]

I know this has been mostly a Russia Ukraine thread, but there was an article about China, and Australia's concerns about a base being put on the Solomon Islands, so I thought I would post this here. It's very troubling, in the sense that you have to wonder just how much collusion there is between Russia and China, and if this is an attempt to distract, or deplete resources.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/australia-says-chinese-spy-ship-061254247.html

 

[xfire]

I've posited on other forums, and may have posted here too, that if we really want to deter China, the best way to do that is to re-militarize Japan and remind them of the atrocities Japan is capable of. We can fight proxy wars with both China and Russia at the same time through Ukraine & NATO against Russia and through Japan & Australia in the Pacific against China. The Chinese would be the more formidable opponent in a conventional war, but neither Russia nor China could maintain an offensive conflict beyond a few months.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

I like the rearm Japan thing, they really did put the boots to China during the WWII era, but to be honest, I never looked into how far back that feud goes.

 

[tvstrip]

I've posited on other forums, and may have posted here too, that if we really want to deter China, the best way to do that is to re-militarize Japan and remind them of the atrocities Japan is capable of. We can fight proxy wars with both China and Russia at the same time through Ukraine & NATO against Russia and through Japan & Australia in the Pacific against China. The Chinese would be the more formidable opponent in a conventional war, but neither Russia nor China could maintain an offensive conflict beyond a few months.

I don't want to derail the thread, but I've always been of the view that victor's justice over-vilified the Japanese. There are lots of cases showing how Japanese "atrocities" (yes, I put that in air quotes) were distorted or even fabricated by the Chinese. And the Japanese couldn't rebut the claims because they were on the losing side. Good example is how the famous "Shanghai baby" photo was staged:

I'm not saying that the Japanese were completely innocent, there's no denying that they were the aggressors, and there were crimes that were committed. But the extent of it, that's what I question. We're always suspicious of the Chinese propaganda machine even today, so why wouldn't one question the propaganda from back then? And let's not pretend that war crimes were exclusive to the Axis; every country, including the Chinese & Soviets committed equally appalling acts.

Anyways, the post-WWII "War guilt" re-education campaign destroyed any desire for war by the Japanese. They will never (legally or practically) launch an offensive strike on any country. That said, if any country does attack Japan directly, all bets are off and you can bet all hell will break loose. Even China & NK know that, and I doubt either will ever poke the bear like that, especially knowing that Japan will never throw the first punch. And the Japanese are fine with that too; they're assured of their security and don't have to worry about getting involved in foreign wars.

Evaluating a hypothetical situation where another Sino-Japanese war breaks out, for military buffs is a fun exercise though.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

I personally think most tales of atrocities are exaggerated, to some extent, although I don't mean that to sound trivializing. It's just truly very difficult to get all of the facts accurately, and sadly, most of the real witnesses, ARE the atrocity.

As far as Japan, I was under the impression, that as part of the surrender, by dismantling their military, and it's ability to function, we took the responsibility to defend them from attack. I think it would almost be criminal, to not give them some freedom of defense, at this junction in time, lets face it, between N.Korea, and China, they ought to have something. Although they always seem to have enough tanks and guns when Godzilla comes calling, but that's not important right now.

 

[tvstrip]

As far as Japan, I was under the impression, that as part of the surrender, by dismantling their military, and it's ability to function, we took the responsibility to defend them from attack. I think it would almost be criminal, to not give them some freedom of defense, at this junction in time, lets face it, between N.Korea, and China, they ought to have something. Although they always seem to have enough tanks and guns when Godzilla comes calling, but that's not important right now.

I can personally attest that the JSDF are not toothless and one of the most technologically advanced militaries in the world. I actually was lucky to score tickets to the yearly firepower demonstration at Mt Fuji where they show everything from jets, helicopters, tanks and artillery to the public. One of the officers told me that in addition to being a morale boost to show the public what it can do, it also had the purpose using up ammunition that was going to expire. So you got to see the REAL thing, no tracers or dummy rounds.

https://www.reuters.com/news/picture/japanese-military-shows-firepower-near-m-idJPRTS2NFLL

The only thing they don't have is actual combat experience, since Japan hasn't been part of an actual military operation since WWII, with the exception of actions against Somali pirates. Admittedly that could be an huge X factor, but given the culture of discipline, honour and accuracy, as well as the fact that it is a 100% volunteer military (i.e. every soldier WANTS to be there), I feel they could overcome that handicap.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

Yeah, it's really tough to replace experience. All the training, and tactical knowledge they get, won't make up for battle hardened.

 

[gmase]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I've always been of the view that victor's justice over-vilified the Japanese. There are lots of cases showing how Japanese "atrocities" (yes, I put that in air quotes) were distorted or even fabricated by the Chinese. And the Japanese couldn't rebut the claims because they were on the losing side. Good example is how the famous "Shanghai baby" photo was staged:

Staging one photo may cause some doubt, but there is plenty of other evidence to support the claims.
There's a whole wiki article on them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
This has a selection: https://www.pacificwar.org.au/JapWarCrimes/Cross-section_JapWarCrimes.html

I'm not saying that the Japanese were completely innocent, there's no denying that they were the aggressors, and there were crimes that were committed. But the extent of it, that's what I question. We're always suspicious of the Chinese propaganda machine even today, so why wouldn't one question the propaganda from back then? And let's not pretend that war crimes were exclusive to the Axis; every country, including the Chinese & Soviets committed equally appalling acts.

Include the US/UK in the appalling acts category: fire bombing Tokyo and Dresden; nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki; Operation Chastise; et al.

I believe atrocities are generally minimized or obscured. Look no further than current efforts by certain politicians to whitewash American history.

 

[tvstrip]

Staging one photo may cause some doubt, but there is plenty of other evidence to support the claims.

Include the US/UK in the appalling acts category: fire bombing Tokyo and Dresden; nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki; Operation Chastise; et al.
I believe atrocities are generally minimized or obscured. Look no further than current efforts by certain politicians to whitewash American history.

There's an equal number of studies and evidence countering most of them, but they're generally dismissed as "revisionist", "apologist" or "Ultra-nationalist conspiracy theories".
Inflating numbers is a common tactic. Look at Nanking: it's alleged 300,000 were murdered in just over a month. That's literally more than both Atomic Bombs. And this was supposedly done with just soldiers with rifles. Try doing the math and see how many people you would have to kill per week/day, with just rifles and swords.

It's often overlooked that the Chinese were in the middle of a civil war during WWII, with the Nationalists fighting Mao's Communists. And Mao was already employing his genocidal methods even during WWII. Just one example is when his communists murdered 10,000 Chinese from 1942-1945 as part of his "rectification" policy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan'an_Rectification_Movement

The Nationalists did the same to Communists too, but the despicable part is that both parties would often put the blame on Japanese soldiers and count them as a part of the "atrocities". After all, after the war, the Japanese weren't in any position to request an inquest or even contest any of these claims, so it was very easy to put the blame on them.

Chinese also took revenge on Japanese settlements and soldiers both during and after the war.
For example, the Tongzhou incident was a "reverse Nanking", where Chinese soldiers raped and murdered Japanese civilians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungchow_mutiny

After the war, the treatment of Japanese soldiers and civilians (eg literally anyone in Manchuria) was probably one of the worst crimes, with both Chinese and Soviets committing retribution killings and rapes. Eg:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonghua_incident

By the morning of 3 February 1946, all Japanese males aged 16 or older and suspected females, frequently wearing only pajamas, were chained and forced to march 15 kilometres in −20 °C (−4 °F) weather. Any who fell from exhaustion or wounds were shot dead.
About 3,000 Japanese men and women were put into old warehouses, packed 5 persons per square metre, anyone climbing through a window was shot. Soon, the flooring had turned into a pool of blood, and people died on their feet – the corpses could not fall because of extreme crowding. About 2,000 civilians who did not fit into the warehouses were shot nearby. After 5 days of confinement, the survivors were let to walk out, only to be beaten to death by the Ri Koko detachment guards. The CPC also carried out rapid interrogations and subsequent torture. The people deemed related to the rebellion were shot. Also, many of the Japanese women were raped and/or committed suicide.

Again, that's not to excuse the fact that the Japanese committed war crimes as well. But a big difference is that they paid for those crimes, while the Chinese/Russian perpetrators got away scot-free.

Anyways, I'm going to stop. I really appreciate you being civil about this, and I want to respect that too. This topic always ends up in a flame war anywhere else on the internet. I said it before, and I'll say it again: this board is the most civil politics board on the web, and I want to keep it that way. I just wanted to point that, for those who are interested in looking beyond the popular narrative, that there is a whole other side to the story.

Thanks.

 

[tvstrip]

Yeah, it's really tough to replace experience. All the training, and tactical knowledge they get, won't make up for battle hardened.

That's why I feel that the US will have the best military for the foreseeable future. There is no other force in the world that has the combination of technology, funding, battle experience and global support, all without resorting to conscription.