Tear down Confederate War Memorials

[John_8581]

You can say that the Civil War was fought over states rights and slavery. The Southern states had the right to secede from the Union. The South also used slavery as a social-economic means to get cotton and crops to market. And sure, Great Britain supported the South. But those are just symptoms of the cause. The main reason the Civil War was fought was to preserve the Union.

That's why I cannot figure why everyone wants to have these Confederate War Memorial taken down? Why the Confederate flag is racist? To erase our history? Like it never existed. It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[xfire]

and there it is.

Weren't you just crying that I, "take this shit too serious, maaaan"? Yeah, I suppose calling you a slanteye gook is a bit of an excessive reaction to you calling me white trash.

 

[ApolloBalboa]

There aren't any public monuments to Hitler and I think he still remains a pretty relevant part of history, don't you? Auschwitz is preserved as a memorial to the people who were murdered there, not as a tribute to the monsters who did the murdering. A statue of Robert E. Lee astride his horse serves to honor him. I respect and admire Lee as unquestionably one of the greatest generals who ever lived. However, it needs to be noted that he was also a traitor to the USA and did all he could to protect and perpetuate a culture that enslaved millions of black people. I cannot support maintaining these statues on public grounds or in public places when I realize the message that it sends to present-day African-Americans. Ironically, since these Nazis have chosen to make these monuments a symbol of their hatred and bigotry in the guise of preserving "southern heritage", the statues are therefore henceforth and forever tainted as being associated with their racist beliefs. They literally shit on their own swastikas. No, we cannot let them stand. Put them in a museum to preserve them as reminders of the historical significance that they represent but we absolutely cannot glorify them. They have to go and I believe that they will.

This is very true and I agree with you.

 

[John_8581]

There aren't any public monuments to Hitler and I think he still remains a pretty relevant part of history, don't you? Auschwitz is preserved as a memorial to the people who were murdered there, not as a tribute to the monsters who did the murdering. A statue of Robert E. Lee astride his horse serves to honor him. I respect and admire Lee as unquestionably one of the greatest generals who ever lived. However, it needs to be noted that he was also a traitor to the USA and did all he could to protect and perpetuate a culture that enslaved millions of black people. I cannot support maintaining these statues on public grounds or in public places when I realize the message that it sends to present-day African-Americans. Ironically, since these Nazis have chosen to make these monuments a symbol of their hatred and bigotry in the guise of preserving "southern heritage", the statues are therefore henceforth and forever tainted as being associated with their racist beliefs. They literally shit on their own swastikas. No, we cannot let them stand. Put them in a museum to preserve them as reminders of the historical significance that they represent but we absolutely cannot glorify them. They have to go and I believe that they will.

While I can follow you about Robert E. Lee. Because he did all he could do to protect and perpetuate a culture that enslaved millions of black people? However Robert E. Lee wasn't a traitor to the Union. President Lincoln wanted Robert E. Lee to be his commander of the Union Army of the Potomac. And he would have stayed. It's just that Virginia seceded from the Union. After the war ended, President Lincoln and later President Johnson and the Congress did not call the Confederate leaders, generals, and soldiers traitors or war criminals. Instead, Presidents Lincoln, Johnson and Grant took the "high road" and brought the defeated Southern States back into the Union no questions asked. ... " Because a house divided cannot stand" to quote Abraham Lincoln.

Slavery wasn't the cause of the Civil War. Nor was States Rights. The Civil War was fought to preserve the Union.

About racism, you should have discussed Nathan Bradford Forrest. Not Robert E. Lee. It would have made your case much stronger.

"Confederate Lieutenant General Nathan Bradford Forrest was accused of war crimes at the battle of Fort Pillow for allegedly allowing forces under his command to massacre hundreds of black Union Army and white Southern Unionist prisoners. However, Union General William T. Sherman investigated the allegations and did not charge Forrest with any improprieties."

Nathan Bradford Forrest was also one of the founders of the Klu Klux Klan. He is the one you need to condemn.

 

[xfire]

 

[Johan]

Spain's just erasing it's History. Sad.

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

COPIED AND PASTED FROM MY OTHER THREAD ('cause I don't want to waste my time on ignorant's).

A few things:


Why are these monuments all of a sudden a problem today? Why weren't they a problem 3, 5, 10, 20 years ago? Oh, that's right, they weren't.


I would go further: Not only does anything "Washington" or "Jefferson" (or even Abe Lincoln, among many others) need to be whitewashed, so does this country's name and for that matter the name of the entire Continent, "America", since it is the name of a blue-eyed European (Amerigo Vespucci).


In my opinion, EVERYTHING - currency, national name, the name of this Continent - all needs to change if we're going to go down this road.



A good equation is the "Redskins" name. The Redskins name wasn't a problem 10, 15, 25 or 30 years ago. All of a sudden people are offended or hurt by it? GIVE ME A BREAK.


They aren't hurt by it. Nor are these snowflakes alleging all of a sudden all these "monuments" (or whatever they are) need to come down are hurt. They aren't hurt; they are being ASSES for the sole purpose of being ASSES.


Now the slippery slope thing...I will say, just do away with all of it. I don't even give a fuck anymore. Maybe it will finally wake up middle-America.

I am as conservative as it gets on here, believe me, but I honestly truly thing that these Antifa/communists/liberals need to start pursuing all the removals indicated above. As Dennis Miller said: "the country is gone, it is lost".


The fact that this country damn near elected a communist in Sanders just a year ago - after tens of thousands died fighting communism just less than 50 years ago - indicates to me that is the direction this country is headed.

 

[Johan]

Why are these monuments all of a sudden a problem today? Why weren't they a problem 3, 5, 10, 20 years ago? Oh, that's right, they weren't.

Actually, the calls to tear up these "monument" did not started this week. These monuments were already a problem 3 or 5 years ago.
But why not 10 or 20 years ago :
1) It was a problem 10 or 20 years ago. Obama's '08 victory just gave black folks a feeling of empowerement, the feeling that this president would be on their side, that witrh him in the White House, things were going to change for them, that things that just seemed imossible before were now possible.
2) These last years, blacks have been having the feeling, that, despite Obama, they were treated as second-class citizens. These statues celebrate the memory of people who fought to kepe them not even citizens at all but slaves without any rights.

I would go further: Not only does anything "Washington" or "Jefferson" (or even Abe Lincoln, among many others) need to be whitewashed, so does this country's name and for that matter the name of the entire Continent, "America", since it is the name of a blue-eyed European (Amerigo Vespucci).


In my opinion, EVERYTHING - currency, national name, the name of this Continent - all needs to change if we're going to go down this road.

Why not stopping at people who took arms against the US (and kinew what it means. I'm talking about confederate leaders and officers, not random soldiers who enlisted wiithout even knowing what they would fight for) ?
Why not stopping at traitors.

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

Actually, the calls to tear up these "monument" did not started this week. These monuments were already a problem 3 or 5 years ago.
But why not 10 or 20 years ago :
1) It was a problem 10 or 20 years ago. Obama's '08 victory just gave black folks a feeling of empowerement, the feeling that this president would be on their side, that witrh him in the White House, things were going to change for them, that things that just seemed imossible before were now possible.
2) These last years, blacks have been having the feeling, that, despite Obama, they were treated as second-class citizens. These statues celebrate the memory of people who fought to kepe them not even citizens at all but slaves without any rights.


Why not stopping at people who took arms against the US (and kinew what it means. I'm talking about confederate leaders and officers, not random soldiers who enlisted wiithout even knowing what they would fight for) ?
Why not stopping at traitors.

You HAVE to change the name of this Nation and Continent at this point. You CAN'T stop at just these vile monuments. Lest your consistency expose you liberals for the flakes you all are.


In fact, you might even be able to argue Washington et al were all WORSE than some of the secessionist Southerners if you wanted to, probably!


And I am dead serious about that.

 

[Jagger69]

While I can follow you about Robert E. Lee. Because he did all he could do to protect and perpetuate a culture that enslaved millions of black people? However Robert E. Lee wasn't a traitor to the Union. President Lincoln wanted Robert E. Lee to be his commander of the Union Army of the Potomac. And he would have stayed. It's just that Virginia seceded from the Union. After the war ended, President Lincoln and later President Johnson and the Congress did not call the Confederate leaders, generals, and soldiers traitors or war criminals. Instead, Presidents Lincoln, Johnson and Grant took the "high road" and brought the defeated Southern States back into the Union no questions asked. ... " Because a house divided cannot stand" to quote Abraham Lincoln.

Slavery wasn't the cause of the Civil War. Nor was States Rights. The Civil War was fought to preserve the Union.

About racism, you should have discussed Nathan Bradford Forrest. Not Robert E. Lee. It would have made your case much stronger.

"Confederate Lieutenant General Nathan Bradford Forrest was accused of war crimes at the battle of Fort Pillow for allegedly allowing forces under his command to massacre hundreds of black Union Army and white Southern Unionist prisoners. However, Union General William T. Sherman investigated the allegations and did not charge Forrest with any improprieties."

Nathan Bradford Forrest was also one of the founders of the Klu Klux Klan. He is the one you need to condemn.

Respectfully but totally disagree with you about Lee, John. While it is true that he only decided to join the confederate cause after Virginia had seceded, as the commander of the Army of Northern Virginia, whose mission it was to destroy the Army of the Potomac and hence the union for which it stood, he absolutely was treasonous and a traitor beyond all doubt. Now, that being said, please be aware that I have tremendous admiration and regard for Lee as being, along with Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Rommel and Guderian, as among the greatest military tacticians of all time. He was a brilliant commander who was always hugely outnumbered, sometimes as much as 2-to-1, and yet managed to rack up victory after victory. It was only after the war had dragged on into 1864 and the confederacy had been split in two by Grant's taking of Vicksburg thereby giving the union total control over the Mississippi River coupled with Sherman's advance into Georgia that crippled the south from both a morale and logistical standpoint and forced Lee to go on the defensive during the siege of Petersburg that led to the ultimate capitulation of the confederacy. The south would have conceivably been crushed far sooner if it had not been for Lee's brilliance in the field of battle.

Aside from that, however, he was most definitely a traitor. I use Lee as the example since it is his statue in Charlottesville over which the controversy was centered last Saturday. If it had been Forrest (who was, as you point out, perhaps the most glaring example of racism in the confederate military both during and immediately following the Civil War), I would have used him as the example instead. It is interesting to note, however, that although he was indeed the founder and first grand imperial wizard of the KKK, he also ordered it disbanded in 1869 and publicly eased back his racist views, something Lee never did.

Here's a really good article that serves to show that the mythical status of General Lee is just that....a myth. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

Meanwhile, Charles Barkley:


http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/08/...ent-thought-day-their-lives-about-confederate

("I haven't thought a day in my life about those statues...")

This is exactly what I mean. This is pure BULLSHIT, and all the ANTIFA/hippy/communist/liberals damn well know it.

 

[xfire]

I live within thirty miles of four county seats, Angelina, Cherokee, Nacogdoches, and Houston counties. They've all got Confederate monuments on the courthouse squares. I always found it odd that those monuments were there, but like Barkley, never really thought about it beyond the times that I've seen them. Have you ever thought about why they were put there in the first place?

 

[John_8581]

Respectfully but totally disagree with you about Lee, John. While it is true that he only decided to join the confederate cause after Virginia had seceded, as the commander of the Army of Northern Virginia, whose mission it was to destroy the Army of the Potomac and hence the union for which it stood, he absolutely was treasonous and a traitor beyond all doubt. Now, that being said, please be aware that I have tremendous admiration and regard for Lee as being, along with Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Rommel and Guderian, as among the greatest military tacticians of all time. He was a brilliant commander who was always hugely outnumbered, sometimes as much as 2-to-1, and yet managed to rack up victory after victory. It was only after the war had dragged on into 1864 and the confederacy had been split in two by Grant's taking of Vicksburg thereby giving the union total control over the Mississippi River coupled with Sherman's advance into Georgia that crippled the south from both a morale and logistical standpoint and forced Lee to go on the defensive during the siege of Petersburg that led to the ultimate capitulation of the confederacy. The south would have conceivably been crushed far sooner if it had not been for Lee's brilliance in the field of battle.

Aside from that, however, he was most definitely a traitor. I use Lee as the example since it is his statue in Charlottesville over which the controversy was centered last Saturday. If it had been Forrest (who was, as you point out, perhaps the most glaring example of racism in the confederate military both during and immediately following the Civil War), I would have used him as the example instead. It is interesting to note, however, that although he was indeed the founder and first grand imperial wizard of the KKK, he also ordered it disbanded in 1869 and publicly eased back his racist views, something Lee never did.

Here's a really good article that serves to show that the mythical status of General Lee is just that....a myth. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/

Good story about Robert E. Lee. Most of what I just read, I never knew about.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jagger69 again

 

[Jagger69]

Good story about Robert E. Lee. Most of what I just read, I never knew about.

Yes it's a little-known aspect of history. I think that posterity would rather stick to the myth. It's just more heroic.

Thanks John. I'd rep you as well but the FreeOnes rep police won't let me do it.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to John_8581 again.

:thumbsup:

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

I live within thirty miles of four county seats, Angelina, Cherokee, Nacogdoches, and Houston counties. They've all got Confederate monuments on the courthouse squares. I always found it odd that those monuments were there, but like Barkley, never really thought about it beyond the times that I've seen them. Have you ever thought about why they were put there in the first place?

Exactly.


And I think I read somewhere that the conspiracy theorists think the nuts were waiting for a moment like this Trump presidency to throw their temper tantrum over them - look what they have accomplished. It is all to do about nothing.


Any sensible person should see that this whole conniption that the ANTIFA communists are throwing are just doing it to start a bunch of senseless shit over...and they are accomplishing it.


It is not about Confederate ANYTHING with these clowns. They just want to cause a riot.

 

[Johan]

Meanwhile, Charles Barkley:


http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/08/...ent-thought-day-their-lives-about-confederate

("I haven't thought a day in my life about those statues...")

This is exactly what I mean. This is pure BULLSHIT, and all the ANTIFA/hippy/communist/liberals damn well know it.

Charles Barckley = Uncle Tom : He's one these blacks who like to defend white privilege. His opinion is shared by about 1% of blacks in America but Fox loves to push the idea that he's a moderate black and that those who don't agree with him are radicals.

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

Charles Barckley = Uncle Tom : He's one these blacks who like to defend white privilege. His opinion is shared by about 1% of blacks in America but Fox loves to push the idea that he's a moderate black and that those who don't agree with him are radicals.

LMAO...Charles is an uncle tom? You don't have a clue what you're talking about. If you means he fucks white women, you are right. Aside from that, he's a lefty no doubt.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/charles-barkley-takes-stand-against-anti-gay-bill-north-carolina

 

[Johan]

I mean he's a black folk who choosed to fight to keep white privilege.

 

[Straight Shooter]

In an Aug. 5, 1869, response to an invite to a sit-down to plan granite statues to memorialize one of the war’s bloodiest battles, Robert E. Lee panned the whole idea and told the group he wouldn’t even show up.

“My engagements will not permit me to be present, & I believe if there I could not add anything material to the information existing on the subject,” wrote Lee, a Virginian.

“I think it wiser moreover not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife & to commit to oblivion the feelings it engendered.”

Close thread

 

[Bloodshot Scott]

I mean he's a black folk who choosed to fight to keep white privilege.

You sound like a fool.