Israeli Attacks Gaza Strip, Killing 200+

Difference is very big:
Israel do not want this war. They know how to live normal peaceful life, and if Hamas won't attack them, they would not hit them back. As for the terrorists, they are those, who bring war and starvation.

When it comes to terrorists, yes, you need to kill them all, or at least make them stop their activity by killing half of them.

Civilian victims are not the target of Israel attacks. It is unavoidable outcome of any war. And only Hamas is guilty that this war happaned - they provoked it. And again this is the big difference between terrorists and Israel: terrorists have intention to attack civilians, while Israel aim is to attack Hamas fighters only.

Hamas is just cynicaly using civilians as a shield, hoping that it will help them to avoid punishment.

Does that make sense?

Do any of you have any of your own opinions, or do you just like to repeat the commentary on the nightly news? Because after awhile, it all sounds the same..

First of all, this "war", or occupation, or conflict. Has been going on for many years. It isnt new. And Hamas was established in the 80's
Secondly, Israel doesn't "want this war"?
They were the ones who broke the cease fire in November.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians-egypt

How do you know they have no intention in killing civilians? Look at the casualty numbers..Through out its history there are MUCH more civilian deaths that are Palestinians then Israelis. They have killed more civilians in the past week, then Hamas has done in the past 5 years. So how do you really justify it all?

And Israel knows how to live peacefully? Really??? By the way, How did they get that land?? Do you even know??
I will tell you this, they were not very peaceful.

This recent bombing of the Palestinians, is just going to embed new hatred for a new generation. Its going to move the peace process back, instead of moving forward. Instead of trying to change the perception of Israel on the young, they have just worsen it. That is what they need to focus on,the children. They need to try to improve how they are being perceived. And you don't do that by bombing schools..
 
Developments in Gaza fighting, Jan 6

GAZA - Death tolls since December 27: At least 631 Palestinians, three Israeli civilians and seven Israeli soldiers. Toll for Palestinians excludes Israeli army reports of some 130 militants killed in ground fighting since January 3.
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5054Q920090106?virtualBrandChannel=10112

Israeli shells kill 42 at UN school: Gaza medics
http://www.reuters.com/article/worl...090106?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=10112

(Good Job)

Egypt announces Israel-Palestinian ceasefire plan
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5056L420090106?virtualBrandChannel=10112
 

Marlo Manson

Hello Sexy girl how your Toes doing?
Bottom line and this makes too much sense!!! all of you who sympathise with hamas and the palestinians take a walk down this profound concept of ideology that could be reality!!! israel is NOT a terrorist state they are defending themselves against terrorists!!! no matter what measures or how severe the retalitation israel has too use they have every right to defend its civilians!!

Again nobody who smpathizes with the hamas, hezzbolah / the palestinians cause or POV still have not answered my question????? WHY ARE THE RICH OIL PRODUCING ARAB STATES NOT AIDING THEIR OWN POOR PEOPLE (AKA THE PALESTINIANS) WITH MUCH NEEDED RESOURCES????

If all those ARAB states aided palestine and the palestinians didn't have any reason to be mad or hate anybody their would be NO CONFLICT WITH THE JEWS OVER A SMALL PORTION OF LAND in the region!!! the land is just an excuse to justify the PALESTINIAN cause of ending poverty which all stems from being HUNG OUT TO DRY (SUFFER) by their own fuckin Arab brethern, thats right all the FILTHY FUCKIN RICH ARAB STATES that could assist palestine with a stroke of pen and end all conflicts with the JEWISH PEOPLE!!! but NO the palestinians are too fuckin DUMB too realize they should blame and hate their own fuckin people instead of the jews!!!

If for exampe saudi arabia, egypt, iran, iraq, uae, jordan, turkey, sudan, all pitched in and sent aid too THE PALESTINIANS with whatever they needed that they can't obtain on their own, the poor people of PALESTINE would be satisfied and content instead of hating the JEWS who only have a small portion of the land in the region that they have to fight for too call their own JEWISH state???

Infact the jews would more than likely aid them (the PALESTINIANS) if the PALESTINIANS didn't use every of fiber of their existance too hate and KILL AS MANY JEWS as they humanly could!!

If the palestinians FINALLY realized its their own people who are letting them suffer and stop hating and killing jews, but that whole concept is too bitter and makes too much sense for the palestinians too ever realize they hate and blame the wrong states and the wrong people!!! :eek: :rolleyes::confused:
 
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Marlo Manson

Hello Sexy girl how your Toes doing?
^^^ Get rid of the exclamation points and the CAPS and then maybe I will read what you said..How old are you, 12?

---------------


Gaza hospital crowded with civilians, doctors say


http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/06/gaza.hospital/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
If I didn't use caps then dumb people and simpletons like you wouldn't see the points I am making cuz they make too much fuckin sense! what does my age have to do with anything? its not even relevant now is it? you knit pick over some dumb aspect of my post instead of answering it! and you keep adding those links for what? they are unbiased media outlet too show the world hamas are a bunch of cowards hiding and shielding themselves amongst civilians! so they are more than responsible for the soaring numbers of dead and injured palestinians! don't you think?
 
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Some of you need to tone down the rhetoric.

I'm willing to bet you have no idea what your talking about. In fact, you are fucking stupid. There i said it.

Leading by example, eh? ;)


...And stop posting Wikipedia articles..Do you honestly think you can have a fair opinion after reading a wiki article for a day??

:2 cents: ...contrary to popular belief, most people post Wikipedia articles in discussion threads not to prove where they learned the information "just that day" but rather for the benefit of the reader. A quick reference to the topic point being discussed. So that, agree or disagree, they know where you are coming from...(picture worth a thousand words ...that sort of thing..)

It is simply that to post ISBN numbers, lecture notes, and a CV with credentials would be a bit cumbersome don't you think?

Not trying to start a flaming session, just saying Wikipedia is your friend.
If you disagree with the argument, make a counter argument, don't simply dismiss the source...especially when the source is one that allows for transparent challenges.
If you believe the Wiki is inaccurate or incomplete, contribute to the Wiki or identify the source you think is questionable within the article.

I appreciate your contributions to this thread. Many interesting news articles and photos. Keep 'em coming!
 
Difference is very big:
Israel do not want this war. They know how to live normal peaceful life, and if Hamas won't attack them, they would not hit them back. As for the terrorists, they are those, who bring war and starvation.

When it comes to terrorists, yes, you need to kill them all, or at least make them stop their activity by killing half of them.

Civilian victims are not the target of Israel attacks. It is unavoidable outcome of any war. And only Hamas is guilty that this war happaned - they provoked it. And again this is the big difference between terrorists and Israel: terrorists have intention to attack civilians, while Israel aim is to attack Hamas fighters only.

Hamas is just cynicaly using civilians as a shield, hoping that it will help them to avoid punishment.

Does that make sense?

No.

Tell me how much terrorists were amongst the 500 victims?

Tell me how traditional warfare is effective against terrorists in any attempt to make war on terror?

Tell me you are objective and not ideologically blind at the big picture?

Your reasonning is a part of the problem in Isreal, not part of the solution. I'm not pro palestinian : i'm against the solution choosen by Isreal. But i'm sure it doesnt make any sense for you.
 
"In war there are no civilians"

Give it 3 years and these kids will grow up to become Hamas troops. The women are just as bad... Instead of standing out on the streets crying and screaming awhawlhalwhlahlawhlahl Why don't you tell the Israeli authorities where the fuck hamas are getting their equipment from, Who thier leaders are and where their leaders are, And don't fucking tell me they dont know because they all have their hands in the fucking cookie jar.

While you are totally wrong about civilians, you are totally right about the fact that Isreal actions will nurture more terrorists...

And i don't know where you get the idea i was pro palestinian... I'm against the solution choosen by Isreal to handle the situation. That's very different. And i explained myself countless times on that. Too subtle for a troll like you i guess...
 
Over-simplifications based on absolutes ...

I really tire of the over-simplifications in this thread. Here are some real questions to ask ...

- How many civilians die because "combatants" choose to use them as shields? How much does and can Israel go out-of-its-way to avoid civilian casualties?

- Should Israel never fire on a highly mobile rocket until after the civilians are cleared of the area? What if that's well after the rocket is fired?

And my personal favorite ...

- Can we please differentiate between the Israeli actions and the mere existence of a Jewish state? While I'm not for most of Israel's actions, I'm so tired of people being against a Jewish state at all.

The world failed the Jewish people, a people that have shown great restraint in the past, taken a lot of blame and been used as the scapegoat for everything. That's why it was founded, even if caused by European and not Arab causes, it is in the past, and the state now exists for a reason. It's not "brainwashing" for those of Jewish faith to believe in a Jewish state post-WWII, it's called mutual protection. I don't agree with Israel's actions, but the existence of the state is hardly unwarranted.

Hell, even if the US offered an entire state to the Jewish nation, and they packed up and returned, do you think it would erase everything and people would peacefully co-exist there?

At some point, people have to learn to get along. I'll criticize the Jewish state for many actions (e.g., use of clusterbombs on civilian populations in the past), but I also hold everyone accountable for what they do. I'm tired of people blaming only Israel for this load of shit that continues on. Rocket attacks will not stop and the nations where they occur, and the nations that provide them to declared terrorist organizations do not bother to even care to stop them. At what point does the restraint end?

This thing flares up every fucking time Syria, Iran and other states are able to feed in a couple thousand rockets. And it only dies down when the stockpile of rockets are finally depleted. Then we have peace for a few years until enough rockets are smuggled in again. It happens every few years regardless of whether or not Israel reacts, of which it often takes a civilian casualty or two before they do. Now I'll agree that I don't know if it's worth Israel to react, but I'm tired of the non-blame of the people who make this happen.

Until people start blaming everyone involved, it will continue, regardless of whether Israel reacts or not. It will continue until everyone agrees to prevent it from happening. That's why peace is not achievable until everyone does. And the grandstanding means jack.
 
Re: Over-simplifications based on absolutes ...

Hell, even if the US offered an entire state to the Jewish nation, and they packed up and returned, do you think it would erase everything and people would peacefully co-exist there?

At some point, people have to learn to get along. I'll criticize the Jewish state for many actions (e.g., use of clusterbombs on civilian populations in the past), but I also hold everyone accountable for what they do. I'm tired of people blaming only Israel for this load of shit that continues on. Rocket attacks will not stop and the nations where they occur, and the nations that provide them to declared terrorist organizations do not bother to even care to stop them. At what point does the restraint end?

Well said!

My friend likened this to someone being sat in a bar, with someone sat next to him and repeatedly poking him over and over. This goes on for some hours, eventually the guy being poked stands up and breaks the other guys nose.

Anyway back to Israel! The difference is also one of intent. Hamas tries to kill and maim as many people as possible with rocket attacks into populated areas, at least Israel attempts to try and destroy targets which are a threat to it while minimizing civilian casualties. Compounding this, Hamas deliberately sets up in places where they can use a human shield. Today they used a UN building which got blown up by returning fire, the Israeli's are blamed for stepping over the line.

Much of Europe is criticising Israel for this, yet its funny that during the 1st gulf war, several hospitals in Iraq were destroyed and hundreds killed by the british Airforce because Saddam had deliberately put anti aircraft missiles on them - apparently this was acceptable, but the Israeli troops defending themselves is not.
 
Re: Over-simplifications based on absolutes ...

Prof. Voluptuary, i agree with everything you write and thanks to have took time to write it. I'm not sure my writing skills in english would have allowed me to write those thoughts as much clear as you wrote them. :hatsoff:


At some point, people have to learn to get along. I'll criticize the Jewish state for many actions (e.g., use of clusterbombs on civilian populations in the past), but I also hold everyone accountable for what they do. I'm tired of people blaming only Israel for this load of shit that continues on. Rocket attacks will not stop and the nations where they occur, and the nations that provide them to declared terrorist organizations do not bother to even care to stop them. At what point does the restraint end?


I think everyone agrees on the responsability and accountability of the Hamas. But many people have problems when we are questionning the actions of Israel. I mean, i'm really tired of people thinking that we overlook at the Hamas actions when we criticise Isreal actions.


I really tire of the over-simplifications in this thread. Here are some real questions to ask ...

- How many civilians die because "combatants" choose to use them as shields? How much does and can Israel go out-of-its-way to avoid civilian casualties?

- Should Israel never fire on a highly mobile rocket until after the civilians are cleared of the area? What if that's well after the rocket is fired?

I always, always, stated that fighting terrorists by traditional warfare was an over-simplificated way to handle the situation. Terrorists are using the traditional warfare methods of their opponents to their advantage...

The civilians caught in the Israli fire will never consider the Hamas responsible of their mournings. They will nurture hate for Israel. They will even join the Hamas and become terrorists themselves.

You just cannot fight terrorists with traditional warfare.

Infiltration. Sabotage. Assassination. Put the Intelligence service at work and kill, destroy and/or arrest terrorists. Now, that could be a lot more effective, with less civilian casualities and less nurturing on the racial hate...

Bombing the civilians who are used as a shield by terrorists is not the solution. Traditional warfare is not the solution. Don't play the terrorist game: be clever then them, work around their strategies...

Break the freckin vicious circle of vengence.

Leave alone civilians: don't act like the terrorists, quit playing their game.

That have always been my stand on the question. Get rid of the fondamentalists of both sides and some peace agreement will eventually be possible.

And my personal favorite ...

- Can we please differentiate between the Israeli actions and the mere existence of a Jewish state? While I'm not for most of Israel's actions, I'm so tired of people being against a Jewish state at all.

I condamn the actions of the state of Israel. I don't question the legitimity of the Isreal state. I question the way it have been founded (pre-48 decision and events), which have less to do with Israel than USA, England and Middle-East countries. This have nothing to do with legitimity: it have all to do with the way it have been done.


Israel is as legitimate as USA, France, England, Japan, etc To condamn the action of a governement, you have to acknowledge the fact that this state exists, is legitimate and is worthy of the same respect and critical thinking as any other state on this Earth.
 
People need to realize, the US cares ...

Anyway back to Israel! The difference is also one of intent. Hamas tries to kill and maim as many people as possible with rocket attacks into populated areas, at least Israel attempts to try and destroy targets which are a threat to it while minimizing civilian casualties. Compounding this, Hamas deliberately sets up in places where they can use a human shield. Today they used a UN building which got blown up by returning fire, the Israeli's are blamed for stepping over the line.
Hamas keeps saying they do this for "the world to care, the world to notice."

Many in the US feel for Palestine. Many in the US know the history, the refugees, the issues. But that was 50 years ago. If there is one thing we've learned in the US, we can't hold grudges for decades, much less centuries. We speak out against the actions of Israel at times, but we are pissed when people think we're stupid and Hamas doesn't instigate this every fucking time they smuggle enough weapons in to fight -- and only stop when they don't have many left.

That's what doomed Europe, not the US. It's how the US can fight a war, and help rebuild and embrace the very people who helped start it. If Americans didn't learn to get along with one another of different creeds, we'd just be another nation in civil war. Instead, we're more about random violence, not blaming creeds and cultures.

Those of Jewish, Islamic and other faiths live in peace in the US. They came here for a reason, like the Germans, Irish and countless others. The US became the nation of outcasts, deviants, the people who decided that they had enough of others blaming them, and did not want to being their new lives in a nation by doing the same.

Hamas, their Syrian, Iranian and other sponsors, suppliers and other organizations and nations don't want it to stop. I don't know if Israel attacking will solve it. But also understand the last time a great Jewish people ignored threads, they were quickly demonized, quitely collected and exterminated with very few knowing. The state exists so that will never happen again, regardless of what people think of it, and how many Israeli's will die trying to prevent it.

Whether or not people agree with the existence of Israel and their actions won't change that.

Much of Europe is criticising Israel for this,
Europeans have a tendency to unilaterally assign blame. It's in most of their histories.

Others would say it's also the media. But in most of the world, the media is state run and controlled. At least in the US, it's generally ignorance (most Americans roll their eyes at their own media) or ratings-related (for advertising dollars).
 
Re: Over-simplifications based on absolutes ...

I always, always, stated that fighting terrorists by traditional warfare was an over-simplificated way to handle the situation. Terrorists are using the traditional warfare methods of their opponents to their advantage ...
You just cannot fight terrorists with traditional warfare ...
Infiltration. Sabotage. Assassination. Put the Intelligence service at work and kill, destroy and/or arrest terrorists. Now, that could be a lot more effective, with less civilian casualities and less nurturing on the racial hate...
Israel does that. But at some point, small arms with close air support is required to fight squads.

Israel is targeting the combatants. They can show a video showing the actual missile launch and Israel getting a direct hit on the unit firing it. Yet civilians 25-50 feet away are indirect casualties, and that is always going to be unavoidable.

It's a battlefield. Make no mistake. Hamas chooses to fight in civilian populations. That doesn't change the fact that at some points, it becomes a battleground, by Hamas' choice.

Bombing the civilians who are used as a shield by terrorists is not the solution. Traditional warfare is not the solution. Don't play the terrorist game: be clever then them, work around their strategies...
You cannot. At some point, the terrorists force their hand. We're not talking 1-2 terrorists. We're talking hundreds of organized militant units -- an army that is organized and tactful.

That's when it becomes a forced, military engagement. Israel can choose to let themselves be overrun, which they do sometimes in the hope the attacks stop. Or they decide to commit themselves to taking out the assailants. And once they commit, you do not stop.

Break the freckin vicious circle of vengence.
Only Hamas can do that. Sorry, but truth. They stop the violence when they run out of arms. They start it again when they smuggle enough in. Syria and Iran don't give a fuck. I used to question the intelligence, it's getting too coincidental for brand new arms designs to find their way into countless organization's hands (and never of UK or US design these days).

That's the problem. Until the region decides it's had enough of the violence, it won't end. Israel doesn't strike back until the
tactical situation becomes organized enough for them to do so. It will happen over and over. The only thing Israel can do is decide to ignore it.

People forget how much they actually do, until they commit themselves to the engagement that is ... essentially ... never-ending.
 

Facetious

Moderated
This situation is probably the biggest factor in my mind for the case that religion should ba abolished, and the sooner that happens, im sure these sort of petty squabbles that cost thousands of lives will end.
Again, what happened during the Bolshevik Revolution ? The Russian Orthodox Church was crushed as were about 100 million people.

BB said:
Isreal can be as arrogant as they please and they can treat the Palistinans like some sort of underclass less than human. And generation after generation of Palistinian will be sucked into this extreamist fundermentalist view that god wants them to sacrifice themself in order to kill some unbelievers so that one day, his children or his childrens, children can one day see a Muslim run Palestine.

The cycle goes on and on....

It's not only the joos that kill Palistinians.

Black September yes I read it ! :p


Fatah all the way !
Two independent state resolution :thumbsup:
 
It's not about religion ...

Again, what happened during the Bolshevik Revolution ? The Russian Orthodox Church was crushed as were about 100 million people.
"Our science is the one and only true science!"

Seriously now, this isn't about religion. Palestine has a great number of citizens of the Christian and Jewish faiths.

It's about some people who never stopped being refugees.
It's about states that fight proxy wars no different than the US and USSR did during the Cold War.
It's about a never-ending, geo-political, "my right is greater than yours" where people are not interested in peace.

And a few are interested in genocide.

The problem is that those select few with such an attitude are fighting a state that was founded because of genocide.
 
Re: Over-simplifications based on absolutes ...

That's the problem. Until the region decides it's had enough of the violence, it won't end. Israel doesn't strike back until the tactical situation becomes organized enough for them to do so. It will happen over and over. The only thing Israel can do is decide to ignore it.

People forget how much they actually do, until they commit themselves to the engagement that is ... essentially ... never-ending.

We can argue on details but you nailed it, right there, i think. :hatsoff:

Of course, palestinians are those who can end the cycle. And i think it's clear how Isreal can keep it possible.

Palestinians arent playing their role to work on a peaceful agreement with Israel. And Israel is no longer playing it either.

I still think Israel should invest more in Intelligence than modern weaponry. It still the best way to weaken the Hamas. And especially to not let the Hamas organised enough to require a traditional warfare assault.

If palestinians against the Hamas could be more organised, get more support from outside (like the Hamas is supported from outside) that wouldn't hurt either.

"Our science is the one and only true science!"

Seriously now, this isn't about religion. Palestine has a great number of citizens of the Christian and Jewish faiths.

It's about some people who never stopped being refugees.
It's about states that fight proxy wars no different than the US and USSR did during the Cold War.
It's about a never-ending, geo-political, "my right is greater than yours" where people are not interested in peace.

And a few are interested in genocide.

The problem is that those select few with such an attitude are fighting a state that was founded because of genocide.

Again, my :hatsoff:
 
No.

Tell me how much terrorists were amongst the 500 victims?

Tell me how traditional warfare is effective against terrorists in any attempt to make war on terror?

Tell me you are objective and not ideologically blind at the big picture?

Your reasonning is a part of the problem in Isreal, not part of the solution. I'm not pro palestinian : i'm against the solution choosen by Isreal. But i'm sure it doesnt make any sense for you.

Last time I heard the newsflash, Israel said they had killed 130 Hamas fighters.

I am sad that there are many civilian victims. But it is clear for me, that Hamas is responsible for that more than Israel. I read a survey which consists of 80 pages, called "Hamas Exploitation of Civilians
as Human Shields". With a lot of evidence, photos from bird-eye view, videos, examples, particular operations, bases where they hold their rockets, places from which they launch them.

I can not see any reason why do you ignore that fact :dunno:

Since you asked me a question, let me answer you with question of my own:

If you country, day after day, month after month was attacked by rockets
and you intelligence service knew perfectly well where did the attackers hide (or better to say - stay, cuz they do not hide much), where were their ammunition depots and tunnels for smuggled weapons,
if you knew all that information - what would you do?

Would you ask them "hey, guys, please do not launch your qassams any more! your rockets tend to fall in our territory, our people have to sleep with clothes on, cuz they must be ready for the alarm 24/7, and some of your rockets blow up in the streets, and we have a few killed and injured, not to mention destroyed flats, and in general, living in danger sucks, so please, Hamas, chill out.. stop it. thanks in advance, peace."? Do you really believe it can work? :bowdown:

Sometimes I think that you expect this sorta reaction from Israel. And this is funny, but there were years of some negotiations, cease-fires, some attempts to find a peacefull solution.

well, to make things clear, let me do some lyrical digression.

Why do I support Israel? I am not a jew. I did not support the USA operation in Iraq. I have no idealogical brainwashing in my head. I think it is nothing but common sense that makes me take their side.

I agree that the whole situation is a tragedy for palestinian people. I feel special sorrow for children, cuz when child is born he is innocent. And I wish that they all live in peace, I do not think that palestinans are second rate race, and jews are superior, none of that bullshit.

So, why do I think that Israel is not the one who is responsible for the shit? Because Israel does not have any choice but to destroy Hamas. Civilian victims, as I said before, are Hamas's fault, cuz this is their unfair taktic and strategy, if you didn't believe me I can give you a link to the survey about "civilian shields", or just read about it in the google - a lot of evidence.

And this is a good time to talk a little about Hamas. This is the real piece of crap, which is as harmful for their own country as an HIV virus for the body.
What have they done for the peaceful life of palestinians? When there is a cease-fire, or just a period of not so active military operations, all they are concerned with is just how to smuggle new weapons, invent new rockets, brainwash new fighters, and propagate hatred towards jews among yound palestinians.

If Hamas used the same determination and passion to improve economical situation is Palestine, if they tried to build new schools and teach young boys to get some jobs - with obstinacy they teach them how to hate Israel, if they had done at least something to fight unemployement, I would say, hey, Hamas is doing the right thing!

But what I see is the fanatic assholes, who put in the brains of the desperate people only one idea: your life is so bad, cuz there is an Israel state, to kill a jew is a way to respect on the earth and heaven after death, they send young kids to smuggle weapons from Egypt using dangerous underground tunnels, they do not want their country to have new construction workers, farmers, doctors or whatever! The only knowledge they teach their youth is how cool is it do die in the name of Allah, they praise those who commit a suicide in Israel and so on. Hamas is the worst "government" ever, cuz they put their country deeper and deeper in the ass of hatred, devastation and despair!

If Hamas was about to fight economic dislocation, Israel would not bomb their cities. If Hamas used their peacefull time not to smuggle new, more dangerous weapons, but to set peacefull things going, but to develop civil infrastructure - Israel will not hunt for their leaders! This is why Israel is right in this conflict!

This is what differs Israel from Hamas. Israel fight Hamas just cut they are the real threat, and their ideology is to destroy jewish state and kill jews!

Hamas should know, that it is impossible to win a war against the nation. Cut what they try to do is exactly a war against all the jews. They are obsessed with that anti-semitic ideas. Israel is not obsessed. Israel have normal economy, people want just to leave in secure environment, without eveyday danger. This is obvious for me. Israel government, in opposite to Hamas, does not teach their youth to blow-up themselves in the autobus, or that the predestination of every jewish kid is to grow up and kill palestinians. They learn normal jobs, they go for the work, they have tourism, agriculture and all that normal shit which every normal country have!

After all, Gaza is so close to the sea! If Hamas leaders spent all their money and all their mad stubbornness to build hotels, to repair roads, equipping their city with services and utilities they also could become a tourist centre!

Of course, now it sounds ridiculous, but this is the guilt of palestinians leaders who AIN'T DOING A THING for normal life, they think that it is better to buy a new grad/katyusha missile system to hit Israeli cities on a long range, cuz quassam rocket is too unreliable. This is how they prefer to spend their money and determination while they have a cease-fire. This is why they are wrong.

And when it is already a war going on, it is very comfortable for them to have as much civilian victims as they can (also its a good idea to have your weapons depot in a Mosque, and later on to blame Israel in destroying sacred places), to use them in their preachs against Israel, and to convince more palestinians of how bad Zionism is.

For me the whole conflict is a fight between mad person, and a person who just need to defend himself. Again, I am really sorry for the tragedy of the palestinians, sometimes society is not responsible for the leaders they have, like not every american citizen is responsible for Bush, not every russian citizen was responsible for Stalin etc.

Like not every german citizen was responsible for Hitler, though he also was elected. Tell me please, what could stop him and his ideology exept then a war? Billions of people were killed, the whole shit was awful, but... Were the russians or allied forces of other countries giulty in that victims? Nazi ideology was giulty that time, and islamic/fanatic ideology is guilty today.

Palestinians are brainwashed, they suffer from their leaders, they are poor victims of awful and stupid preachs and radical ideas. They need to recover their sight, to understand it... They will never have good life while their leaders think about a war only!

Traditional warfare is usefull, since there are obvious targets and obvious enemies. It is not an abstract war against "terroristic evil state Palestine", but a fight with certain targets. Hamas has military infrastructure, they have depots, they have tunnels, they have military plants and so on. Their fighters are not hypothetical myths who hide somewhere in the mountains, but real people who let Israel know about themselves every day.
 
I said it before...these Israeli attacks have nothing to do with trying to stop Hamas firing rockets at Israel in the immediate future. Nothing. The rockets are too easy to produce and fire. Unless Israel kills every member of Hamas (impossible without nuking Gaza) the rocket attacks cannot be stopped. And the Israeli military knows it.

This Israeli offensive is to a) appease Israeli's calling for action. But mostly b) to cause as much suffering as they can to Gazan's as the international community (re: America) will allow so Gazan's will tire of Hamas's agenda/tactics and lose the next election.

Israel wants Hamas gone and their pathetic rocket attacks give the IDF (Israeli Defence Force) the excuse to (attempt to) blast Hamas into political oblivion.

Whether this will 'work' or not is anyone's guess.
 
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