Israeli Attacks Gaza Strip, Killing 200+

[Dawn]

We aren't thinking that much differently, jamrak.

I actually forgot why we were arguing (and i won't look few pages back what leaded to this confrontation) because i can't see anything to argue much in your long (and excellent :hatsoff post.

I have written few posts before what i think Isreal could do to work around the *civilian shield* strategy used by the Hamas (and why the traditional warfare is a bad idea regarding that).

I'm not overlooking that: i'm just seeing how, overall, it isnt good for neither Isreal, neither palestinians and especially not for a peaceful future in the region. That's what i mean when I say Israel is playing the Hamas game.

I'm not overlooking what Israeli citizens have to live daily. I empathise with civilians in this conflict, especially those who don't give a damn about that war and would love to live peacefully, found a family, etc and the Hamas threatens daily the life of both palestinians and israelis civilians of that kind.

We disagree on the methods, the actions - we are agreeing on everything else.

 

[Philbert]

Just curious...does anyone have any family, relatives, or friends living in either Israel or Gaza?
Lotta opinions here, but it seems as though no one has actually had any face time with the people or the area.
Just curious...
Please don't tell me you have a great viewpoint on the subject 'cause you know a Palestinian down the street who has a corner grocery.
I know maybe 100 such Palestinians, Pakistanis, Saudis, etc...all live here and aren't there 'cause it's so much better here.
I am refering to a real connection to the area.
Anyone?

 

[Dawn]

Just curious...does anyone have any family, relatives, or friends living in either Israel or Gaza?
Lotta opinions here, but it seems as though no one has actually had any face time with the people or the area.
Just curious...
Please don't tell me you have a great viewpoint on the subject 'cause you know a Palestinian down the street who has a corner grocery.
I know maybe 100 such Palestinians, Pakistanis, Saudis, etc...all live here and aren't there 'cause it's so much better here.
I am refering to a real connection to the area.
Anyone?

One of my close friends (a french canadian, not related at all with jewish or palestinian people) made his doctorate in the University of Jerusalem around 2002-2004. He is an historian. He have been able to visit a little the area while he was there and posted pictures, emailed his daily journal to me and few friends in Canada. He witnessed or heard many issues he reported us, first hand. He shared the fear of Israeli people the 18 months he spent there. It's the only years i had a (somewhat) real connection to the area.

 

[Ceska]

Re: Over-simplifications based on absolutes ...

Can we please differentiate between the Israeli actions and the mere existence of a Jewish state? While I'm not for most of Israel's actions, I'm so tired of people being against a Jewish state at all.

Sorry, I must have missed this. Can you please identify where in this thread anybody stated that Israel should not exist at all. Thanks.

Only Hamas can... (Break the freckin vicious circle of vengence).

Hamas certainly adds fuel to the fire and causes suffering...
I'm curious...

• Do you believe that Israel should return to it's pre-1967 borders?
• Does Israel's expansion of territory and settlement outside its borders as well as control of Palestinian access to water and other resources in any way reinforce the "circle of vengeance"?
• Don't other parties share responsibility in breaking this cycle?
• Doesn't Israel?

That's the problem. Until the region decides it's had enough of the violence, it won't end.

On the mark.

 

[LBP 76]

Re: Over-simplifications based on absolutes ...

That's when it becomes a forced, military engagement. Israel can choose to let themselves be overrun, which they do sometimes in the hope the attacks stop. Or they decide to commit themselves to taking out the assailants.

Assailants? With respect; more like desperate people, understandably grasping at straws.

As Sen. Ron Paul said;
'To me, I look at it (the Gaza Strip) as a concentration camp. People are making home made bombs and like their the aggressors? (last 4 words stated with sarcasm)'

Check what he said at www.campaignforliberty.com (2'nd article down)

He clearly thinks that America is at least partly to blame for this and appears to strongly believe that Israel is to blame far more then the Gazans (both points I strongly agree with).

Once again Ron Paul is a becon of common sense in a sea of political nonsense.

 

[LBP 76]

I just want to add that I agree with much of what you have said in this thread Prof Voluptuary. But I disagree with that 'assailant/aggressor' part.

Also, I know you call yourself a Libertarian (of sorts) and I thought you could appreciate Ron Paul's point-of-view on this.

 

[hedonis]

Not to nitpick, but from the title of the thread, it looks like just one dude attacked the Gaza Strip :hatsoff:

H

 

[Ceska]

Not to nitpick, but from the title of the thread, it looks like just one dude attacked the Gaza Strip :hatsoff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCcK-QYJcSU

:dunno:

 

[GabberMan]

Let's see how this pans out:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7815266.stm

 

[Philbert]

Once again Ron Paul is a beacon of political nonsense in a sea of common sense.

Once again, for those who are actually objective and want to have some insight in this situation, Gaza was given to the Palestinian Arabs, for the very first time ever, a territory under complete Palestinian control. Complete with greenhouses, commercial and residential buildings and an agricultural structure left behind by Israelis living there for upwards of 30 years.
The Palestinians poured in, the population was very small before the Israeli withdrawal and is now the densest possible. A wasteland now, way before the Israeli operation, as Hamas was not interested in a thriving society but war and political posturing. It attacked Fatah, killed many Palestinians, and has attacked Israel since the last settler left Gaza.
Somehow the truth is easy for them to change, they have learned the formula for Western sympathy and play that tune every day.

 

[ShowAndTell]

No ones complained more than the Jews for what has been done to them. Then they go and do the exact same to another religion for the same reasons. Work that one out!

 

[Philbert]

No ones complained more than the Jews for what has been done to them. Then they go and do the exact same to another religion for the same reasons. Work that one out!

"Jews", as you put it, don't complain. They work and live under horrific circumstances, and move forward. Israel is an open Western society, nothing is unknown about the political or social structure. People move freely about the country, and have become a major contributor to the world community.
You are obviously ignorant of the history of Israel, millions of Americans, Russians, Brits, and Morroccans, Iraqi,Yemini, and almost every country on the planet's immigrants, living and working there.
Computer tech, produce, textiles, all exports to the world market. Their own Airline, and citizens moving freely about the world.
They don't complain, they took what they had and made something great with it.
Please continue to ignore the million plus Muslims living in Israel with more rights than any other Arab country in the world, since you believe they are anti Muslim that wouldn't fit in your skewed viewpoint.
Once again, an ignorant and uninformed anti-Israeli post has graced the discussion.

 

[jamrak]

We aren't thinking that much differently, jamrak.

I actually forgot why we were arguing (and i won't look few pages back what leaded to this confrontation) because i can't see anything to argue much in your long (and excellent :hatsoff post.
...

Thanks, dawn. I really respect that you show some kind of understanding here! I absolutely did not expect it... At least now I know that my attempts to express my thoughts were not that useless, and that people with different views still can find some kinda common language.

The sad part is that peace is yet a delusive hope. I hope that one day palestinian people will have a leader, who start to care about them, and who will try to improve economy and social sphere. Leader, who will be clever enough, not to put all the forces to fight with jews, but to struggle for better living of their own people. And if it happens, and if Israel can see their peaceful intentions, I believe, that Israeli business men even will be glad to invest money in their economy.

They need a leader, who will have enough courage to abandon hostile ideology, stop fanatic propaganda and stop advocacy of terroristic actions. Who will be dare enough to declare peace as their way of living. Something tells me, that if such a political muscle appears in Palestine, Israel will be only happy to support them, rather than to kill and bomb them.

But it is just unreal dream today, for a pity, there are quite different leaders in present time.

Who knows, maybe one day they will be able to find at least a half of mutual understanding that we did? I hope.

Just curious...does anyone have any family, relatives, or friends living in either Israel or Gaza?

I do not have any close friends in Israel, but a friend of my friend lives with her family with little kids in Beersheba - city which was many times attacked by different rockets. Few days ago I read a forwared letter from her, with some vivid details about everyday life... Need to underline, that before that time I did not have any personal evidence of how do they live in this area, but it turns out to be almost exactly how I imagine it from tv reports and internet. And yes, it really sucks! it is living in the atmosphere of everyday danger. She wrote about one guy who was taking a bath, when he heard the alarm. When there is an alarm, everybody need to hide in bunkers asap - they have about 20-30 seconds before the explosion. Thats why they even sleep in clothes, to be ready to get up quickly and run. But he was nude, in the bathroom, and decided not to hide this time. But when alarm repeated, his nerves told him to run out, in a bath-towel and foam all over the body. Needless to say, that when he came back from the bunker, he found his bathroom destroyed by a rocket that hit exactly into it. And many other examples like that, when a rocket falls down in the univercity where she works, or in the house of her friend...

Another friend of my family lives in Israel, and he had visited my country about 5 years ago. I remember asking him about "how does it feel" to live under such a circumstances. At that time there were many terroristic attacks in Israel, mostly on transport, a lot of buses were blown-up. When people live in such an atmosphere, usually some kind of fatalism appears in them. He also was mostly joking, and saying about god wish/fate, cuz it is impossible to take everyday threat 100% seriously, or you will become a mad one.

 

[LBP 76]

Gaza was given to the Palestinian Arabs...a territory under complete Palestinian control.z

Really?
Israel controls Gazan's food, power and medical supplies. They can; and do; starve Gazan's whenever they feel the need. They control all border crossings either physically or through blockade. They can end Gazan's control anytime. And they invade Gaza whenever the mood strikes them without any fear of international reprisals.
That's a funny idea of 'complete control'.

A wasteland now, way before the Israeli operation,

A 'concentration camp' (according to Sen. Paul). With Israel as their overseer's.
How ironic.

 

[LBP 76]

Please continue to ignore the million plus Muslims living in Israel with more rights than any other Arab country in the world,

I guess you're forgetting the 4+ million 'Muslim's' who live in the Israeli occupied territories who, according to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert; are Israeli citizen's?
They have less rights and freedom's, even during the 'ceasefire', then (I believe) any other Arab country.

 

[Marlo Manson]

Really?
Israel controls Gazan's food, power and medical supplies. They can; and do; starve Gazan's whenever they feel the need. They control all border crossings either physically or through blockade. They can end Gazan's control anytime. And they invade Gaza whenever the mood strikes them without any fear of international reprisals.
That's a funny idea of 'complete control'.
A 'concentration camp' (according to Sen. Paul). With Israel as their overseer's.
How ironic.

FFS would anybody care too address my points about the other Arab states leaving the Palestinians hung out to dry? if surrounding states in the region cared and wanted to stop the conflict they would send aid and whatever the Palestinians needed, this about Israel cutting off, patrolling and barricading the border crossings and anywhere their is access to food, water, and medical supplies, is because of sanctions enforced by israel as a message to stop the suicide bombings and terrorist attacks.

Anybody that argues the reason all the border crossings are barricaded or not accessible to the Palestinians is by their own doings are very naive!

Its only done because of the endless threat of suicide bombers and the sanctions the Palestinians have forced Israel to impose for constantly and indiscreetly firing missiles, mortars, and other exploding devices into Israel to kill Israeli citizens!

The Israeli's only crime is they have land that the Palestinians want and nothing to do with other rich Arab states in the region turning their backs on Palestine? I guess its one big lie! the Palestinians only concern is the land Israel occupies they need to accept the boundaries and live a meaningful life! cuz until Israel concedes the land or the Palestinians realize they will never beat the Israeli's they are killing themselves in the name of hopeless reality!

Their I didn't use caps, so their is nothing for anybody to criticize or beat around the bush (no pun intended) about my post and finally somebody will address the points I am making, which suggests if the rich Arab states in the region provided the Palestinians with aid, their would be no conflict with the Jews! it just makes to much sense!


I really wish you people would wake up, Israel is not a terrorist state, they have to defend themselves in a region of religious fanatic's who all want the Jews dead! why? because they occupy a small portion of land in a mostly Arab region? I am not certain but I don't think Israel has a oil reservoir under it? like most of the Arab states in the region? so why is the land Israel occupies so important that all the Arabs can't accept Israels existence? :eek:

 

[LBP 76]

I have read what you say Marlo Manson and I respect what it is you are saying. 5 years ago I probably would have agreed with almost all of it. I am afraid, I no longer do (for the most part).
However, I agree that surrounding Arab nations are not doing enough.

I also appreciate your unconfrontational style.

 

[guest111]

I have read what you say Marlo Manson and I respect what it is you are saying. 5 years ago I probably would have agreed with almost all of it. I am afraid, I no longer do (for the most part).
However, I agree that surrounding Arab nations are not doing enough.

The UN hasnt done enough.

But as far as the Arab Nations, people need to understand that just because They are both Arab does not mean they will get along. A lot of the Arab Nations dislike the Palestinians, its just they have something in common because they dislike Israel more.

Look at what Lebanon did to the Palestinian Refugee camps

 

[guest111]

Leading by example, eh?




:2 cents: ...contrary to popular belief, most people post Wikipedia articles in discussion threads not to prove where they learned the information "just that day" but rather for the benefit of the reader. A quick reference to the topic point being discussed. So that, agree or disagree, they know where you are coming from...(picture worth a thousand words ...that sort of thing..)

It is simply that to post ISBN numbers, lecture notes, and a CV with credentials would be a bit cumbersome don't you think?

Not trying to start a flaming session, just saying Wikipedia is your friend.
If you disagree with the argument, make a counter argument, don't simply dismiss the source...especially when the source is one that allows for transparent challenges.
If you believe the Wiki is inaccurate or incomplete, contribute to the Wiki or identify the source you think is questionable within the article.

I appreciate your contributions to this thread. Many interesting news articles and photos. Keep 'em coming!

I called him stupid, because he was suggestion killing all the Palestinians, for some reason I don't think that will work. And, I apologize, but that is plain dumb.

If you have been fallowing the topic(or since page 3), what I mean by "rhetoric" is the oversimplified observation that Israel=Good, Hamas/Palestinians=bad/Terrorists. I'm sorry but its all over the thread. And I have been trying to show that things are not that simple, and they have never been. That is what I meant.

And as far as wikipedia-

Posting wikipedia articles in my book is a cop out from actually doing REAL research. If you listed wikipedia as a source in a university/college. Pretty much all professors would negatively grade you. Or would ignore the paper.
I dont dislike wikipedia. I know it has its advantages. But its surveys over the subjects..

And as far as the posting of articles, Thank you.

I'm hoping you saw the site I posted about the refugees.
http://www.un.org/unrwa/publications/pdf/rr_countryandarea.pdf
http://www.un.org/unrwa/publications/index.html

 

[guest111]

They are now trying to do something. Hopefully they will be assertive, and not just give both of them a slap on the wrist.

Sarkozy urges Syria to act on Gaza
http://english.aljazeera.net//news/middleeast/2009/01/200916141444359867.html
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Arab ministers hold UN Gaza talks
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/01/20091522052418539.html
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Israel resumes Gaza raid after lull
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200917151851205482.html
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UN hosts Gaza truce talks
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/01/20091718502327179.html
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Didnt see this coming..What a Surprise! (sarcastic)

Hezbollah 'ready to fight Israel'
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200917122215939455.html
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Israel accepts truce 'principles'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7815929.stm
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Israel Warns Residents Along Gaza-Egypt Border of Air Strikes
http://voanews.com/english/2009-01-07-israel-gaza.cfm
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This below is really interesting.

For the past year, two men — one Israeli, one Palestinian — have been blogging about their lives on opposite sides of the Israeli-Gaza border.
For Israeli Blogger, Conflict Spurs Mixed Emotions
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99053041
--------------------


This is also really interesting...(below)

Israeli Novelist's View Of Gaza Conflict
The many Israelis who have been watching the conflict in Gaza include Amos Oz. The Israeli novelist is known as a dove. He co-founded a group called "Peace Now" in 1978. Yet, he tells Steve Inskeep that he initially supported Israel's air strikes on Gaza.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99071547
----------------------

Check out all their stories regarding the issue.
Middle East
http://www.npr.org/templates/topics/topic.php?topicId=1009