China - The Rise of Totalitarian Capitalism

[Luxman]

Capitalism, the intended easy without force, eliminates slavery by allowing the worker to negotiate their wages or not work, without capitalism as the tool to negotiate pay - all we have left to convince others to work is force/convincing/extortion/begging/charity/etc, but without capitalism there is no exchange of work for pay.

You're confusing capitalism with democracy.
Capitalism's primary goal is to make money by exploiting/conning customers with countless different scams.
Democracy regulates capitalism to try and minimize the amount of corruption and exploitation of customers/the public.

China's version of capitalism is more corrupt because the government owns everything and 'regulates' itself, so the customers/public have no rights and can't complain when the commie government screws them. If they complain they are imprisoned or killed.

 

[Luxman]

Game Over! Elon Musk is Getting Screwed By the US Government

 

[tvstrip]

It's just like the video said that many in China don't know anyone actually doing this less and 1/100. More like it's just wishful thinking when one guy could do it had an article written then others dream of doing same.

I agree, I don't believe the "laid back" movement is widespread or even a noticeable problem. If this somehow was going to threaten the economy of china, I'm pretty sure the government would find a way to make laziness a crime. Then they can just get those in prison to do those unpopular jobs. Literal slave labor, but somehow I doubt they (the government or regular working people) would have any qualms with that..

 

[gmase]

How would the government function without collecting taxes???

Stop bringing common sense to the argument.

 

[Theopolis Q. Hossenffer]

Stop bringing common sense to the argument.

You owe me $2 for stealing my line

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

Despite your contorted logic, it is capitalism. Slavery exists both inside and outside of capitalism. The master believes it is capitalism. The slave does not. It all depends on your perspective.

It is actually very similar. If someone owes taxes, they have earned income and chosen not to pay the taxes. It is a choice.


Taxes are not slavery.

You say taxes are not slavery, explain how you survive without income? Is that a reasonable choice for you or anyone who does not want to pay income taxes to just choose not to earn income?

Your contorted logic about the perspective of slavery is not logical - slavery means that the choice given you is use of force when you don't comply, now what examples do you suggest don't fall into this category? Be specific as I was. Choosing not to pay income tax will incur force being used on you, choosing not to earn income means you'll starve unless you get charity.

Given those choices how do you explain that income tax is not a form of slavery?

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

You can't declare bankruptcy to get rid of student loans.
Lobbying (bribes) by the predatory student loan industry made the government pass laws that force students to pay back loans, even if they can't.
Young adults are conned into those loans because they don't fully understand what they are getting into.

How would the government function without collecting taxes???

Explain what would happen to me if I don't repay student loans? If I do declare bankruptcy and don't trust them? If you can answer that You Might understand why owing student loans is not slavery.

As for your question about how government can function without taxes, what does this question have to do with whether student loans or income taxes are slavery or not?

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

You're confusing capitalism with democracy.
Capitalism's primary goal is to make money by exploiting/conning customers with countless different scams.
Democracy regulates capitalism to try and minimize the amount of corruption and exploitation of customers/the public.

China's version of capitalism is more corrupt because the government owns everything and 'regulates' itself, so the customers/public have no rights and can't complain when the commie government screws them. If they complain they are imprisoned or killed.

You're actually confusing what democracy is...remember that democracy just means the majority chooses the leaders...so imagine if the majority voted for hitler like Germany did - in that case democracy did not regulate capitalism but instead democracy helped empower a worse dictatorship than China is now.

Democracy empowered trump and the current retrumplicans into steering American into near civil war.

So, you really are confusing what democracy with your ideal of what you want democracy to be.

Also, capitalism primary goal is not exploitation, why did you post that video in your capitalism thread in your original post explaining that capitalism is a tool if you think capitalism is so bad?

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

I agree, I don't believe the "laid back" movement is widespread or even a noticeable problem. If this somehow was going to threaten the economy of china, I'm pretty sure the government would find a way to make laziness a crime. Then they can just get those in prison to do those unpopular jobs. Literal slave labor, but somehow I doubt they (the government or regular working people) would have any qualms with that..

I can't think of any countries in ask history where it's citizens ever had any qualms with using prisoners as literal slave labour, nazi Germany/America/China included, can you?

Haha, I think this is because most citizens agree with slave labor, after all - HOW WOULD THE GOVERNMENT FUNCTION WITHOUT COLLECTING TAXES???

As @gmase and @Luxman have already posted, because never mind that some people don't agree - they need government to force people to help government function.

 

[gmase]

You say taxes are not slavery, explain how you survive without income? Is that a reasonable choice for you or anyone who does not want to pay income taxes to just choose not to earn income?

Tax rates are a fraction of earned income. I make x and pay 0.25x in income taxes. The remainder stays with me. No slavery.

Your contorted logic about the perspective of slavery is not logical - slavery means that the choice given you is use of force when you don't comply, now what examples do you suggest don't fall into this category? Be specific as I was. Choosing not to pay income tax will incur force being used on you, choosing not to earn income means you'll starve unless you get charity.

Given those choices how do you explain that income tax is not a form of slavery?

See above. Unless the tax rate exceeds 100% of income, it is not slavery.

Some reality:

• In 2017, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.
• The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent).
• The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent).

(https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2020-update/)

You seem to be suggesting the top 1% of taxpayers are slaves and the bottom 50% of taxpayers are more free?

 

[Luxman]

Every system has pros and cons, capitalism is the best economic system invented so far, but if it is not regulated capitalism inherently becomes corrupt.
Democracy also has pros and cons, that's why there are checks and balances to prevent corruption and evil aholes like Trump becoming a dictator.

Unregulated capitalism is too corrupt, communism is too corrupt. The best solution is somewhere in the middle.
Most democracies around the world have socialist-capitalist political/economic systems, and most of them have a better standard of living for most of their citizens.

 

[gmase]

You owe me $2 for stealing my line

I'll send you $2.50 to cover your taxes.

I can't think of any countries in ask history where it's citizens ever had any qualms with using prisoners as literal slave labour, nazi Germany/America/China included, can you?

Haha, I think this is because most citizens agree with slave labor, after all - HOW WOULD THE GOVERNMENT FUNCTION WITHOUT COLLECTING TAXES???

As @gmase and @Luxman have already posted, because never mind that some people don't agree - they need government to force people to help government function.

Hopefully you can find Mulligan's Valley.

 

[Luxman]

This is why Libertarians believe taxes are slavery, and I agree.

If you believe that taxes are slavery, then what is a viable alternative to taxes?

 

[gmase]

As @gmase and @Luxman have already posted, because never mind that some people don't agree - they need government to force people to help government function.

I don't recall making that statement.

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

Tax rates are a fraction of earned income. I make x and pay 0.25x in income taxes. The remainder stays with me. No slavery.



See above. Unless the tax rate exceeds 100% of income, it is not slavery.

Some reality:

• In 2017, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.
• The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent).
• The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent).

(https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2020-update/)

You seem to be suggesting the top 1% of taxpayers are slaves and the bottom 50% of taxpayers are more free?

Let try to make this very very simple so you all can understand...just because the slavery is not as egregious as the nazis/jews or whites/blacks, does not change the fact that slavery means being forced to do something under threat of physical force - sure you agreed to pay taxes, but it doesn't matter what you feel/believe, because the fact is that if you don't pay force will be used on you.

Just like some black slaves had days off and felt grateful and willing to work and be fed did not make them any less of slaves

Now you say just because you willing pay only 25% taxes and you're happy with that you're not a slave? Try not paying that 25% and see if jail makes you feel like a slave - paying 25% just means that only 25% of your life of slavery not 100% slavery, this is still slavery whatever the percentage.

To be clear I am not suggesting I am pointing out the fact that whatever percent of your income is taxed is the percentage that you are enslaved - easy math.

Your suggestion that it takes 100% taxation to amount to slavery makes no sense at all - how about if I take 10% of your wealth at gunpoint do you feel because I left you 90% it is not robbery?

 

[gmase]

Let try to make this very very simple so you all can understand...just because the slavery is not as egregious as the nazis/jews or whites/blacks, does not change the fact that slavery means being forced to do something under threat of physical force - sure you agreed to pay taxes, but it doesn't matter what you feel/believe, because the fact is that if you don't pay force will be used on you.

Just like some black slaves had days off and felt grateful and willing to work and be fed did not make them any less of slaves

Now you say just because you willing pay only 25% taxes and you're happy with that you're not a slave? Try not paying that 25% and see if jail makes you feel like a slave - paying 25% just means that only 25% of your life of slavery not 100% slavery, this is still slavery whatever the percentage.

To be clear I am not suggesting I am pointing out the fact that whatever percent of your income is taxed is the percentage that you are enslaved - easy math.

Your suggestion that it takes 100% taxation to amount to slavery makes no sense at all - how about if I take 10% of your wealth at gunpoint do you feel because I left you 90% it is not robbery?

You act like government provides nothing in return for taking my taxes.

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

Every system has pros and cons, capitalism is the best economic system invented so far, but if it is not regulated capitalism inherently becomes corrupt.
Democracy also has pros and cons, that's why there are checks and balances to prevent corruption and evil aholes like Trump becoming a dictator.

Unregulated capitalism is too corrupt, communism is too corrupt. The best solution is somewhere in the middle.
Most democracies around the world have socialist-capitalist political/economic systems, and most of them have a better standard of living for most of their citizens.

I agree every system has pros and cons, but as your original posted video in your capitalism video stated - capitalism has always existed so never had to be invented it just exists like oxygen or the sun exists for all to use and enjoy.

A good example of unrelated capitalism would be like how the unregulated marijuana industries operated, an example of a socialist/capitalist economic system highly regulated that is bad is nazi Germany - but I agree that others like Iceland and other Western Europeans countries do have better standards of living compared to rest of world, but I attribute that to the freedoms/liberties those countries guarantee rather than their economic/political systems.

Also, trump got to power because of democracy just like hitler, of not for democracy those dictators would have never gotten there - so I think there are better political systems than Democrat, but don't know if any yet, just waiting for them to be invented/discovered.

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

If you believe that taxes are slavery, then what is a viable alternative to taxes?

I don't know what the best alternative is but exploring better alternatives is what we should be doing, the first thing I say is for governments to transition away from income/property taxes towards consumption/luxury taxes, doing this will remove the slavery from government because texts will only apply to wants not needs.

The government should explore other revenue streams others than taxes, such as banking and insurance etc that will help pay for health care etc.

But the main thing is for government to cut expenses, such as free education that most parents just as free daycare anyways - plus governments should not control education(brainwashing). Government can start by transitioning education to online courses to cut cost etc.

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

I don't recall making that statement.

I can look for your quote if your want, but you did post that you want people to pay taxes so that government can function and you support jail time for tax evaders - what else can that mean except that you support government using force on all to ensure tax collection?

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

You act like government provides nothing in return for taking my taxes.

That's not relevant what you get back in return, what's relevant is that your choices are pay or have physical force used against you.

Does it matter how well slaves are treated? A gilded cage is still a cage, an invisible/long leash is still a leash.