A Senseless War Begins Its 10th Year

It's been ten years already? Wow. It doesn't feel like it.

Personally, I think Michael Moore is a freakin' moron, but I do agree that this war should have ended a long time ago.

I mean, how freakin' long does it take for a military as powerful as ours to defeat an Army smaller than the population of my hometown? And why exactly are we fighting anyway? Is there actually a real reason behind all the vauge explanations? Does anyone even care anymore? Does black really go with everything? Does anyone hate non-stop questions as much as I do? ;)
 
I'm merely asking for proof. Can you provide it? Or are you as useless in that respect as every other?

Inaccuracies in Bowling for Columbine:
http://www.mooreexposed.com/bfc.html

59 "deceits" in Fahrenheit 9/11:
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

Lies in Sicko:
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/07/06/2007-07-06_more_lies_from_moore.html

Capitalism, a love story (The concept that MM is bashing capitalism is hilarious. He's a millionaire that lives in a mansion, and charges upwards of $40,000/per to speak at colleges about the wonders of liberalism and the evils of capitalism):
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/9886/lies-damn-lies-michael-moore-cinema-polemics/

Criticism and inaccuraices in Roger & Me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_%26_Me

All you have to do is google Michael Moore and this stuff comes pouring out... I love how some people claim to be so informed, yet need proof that Michael Moore is full of shit. :1orglaugh
 

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
I'm not a big fan of Michael Moore. On the other hand if the biggest fool in the world somehow got something right and figured out two plus two equals four I'm not going to then say he's wrong just because he was such a fool on so many other things.

I agree with this post, D-Rock. :thumbsup: This is not about the messenger but rather the reality. Sadly, I don't see the American military presence ever being removed from the Middle East. There will be a constant state of combat going on somewhere that will involve American lives being in harm's way from now on I fear.
 

Legzman

what the fuck you lookin at?

roronoa3000

Banned
The only thing Michael Moore does for this country is stimulating the economy by buying mass quantities of fast food and tricking liberals into paying to watch his easily debunked documentaries.

A used douche bag > Micheal Moore > George Bush >A bloody tampon > Fox News > The French
 
Bloody tampon?

Don't you mean blood-soaked underwear? As Sean Penn likes to say.
 
Really? Using Michael Moore as a source is about as credible as using Jerry Falwell; both will get recognition from a few extremist kooks, but will get scoffed at by the majority. :facepalm:
 

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
Inaccuracies in Bowling for Columbine:
http://www.mooreexposed.com/bfc.html

59 "deceits" in Fahrenheit 9/11:
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

Lies in Sicko:
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/07/06/2007-07-06_more_lies_from_moore.html

Capitalism, a love story (The concept that MM is bashing capitalism is hilarious. He's a millionaire that lives in a mansion, and charges upwards of $40,000/per to speak at colleges about the wonders of liberalism and the evils of capitalism):
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/9886/lies-damn-lies-michael-moore-cinema-polemics/

Criticism and inaccuraices in Roger & Me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_%26_Me

All you have to do is google Michael Moore and this stuff comes pouring out... I love how some people claim to be so informed, yet need proof that Michael Moore is full of shit. :1orglaugh

A: I can't know everything and knowing things about your country is really second priority for me.
B: Thank you for providing sources.
C: Well done! This is the first time I've seen you engage in anything like reasoned debate and even better you've provided reasons to back up your pitifull opinions for once! :clap:

I agree with this post, D-Rock. :thumbsup: This is not about the messenger but rather the reality. Sadly, I don't see the American military presence ever being removed from the Middle East. There will be a constant state of combat going on somewhere that will involve American lives being in harm's way from now on I fear.

As long as american troops are there, there will be combat. Withdraw to america, fight off the first few revenge attacks and then sit tight. It's your only hope. If you don't save your strength then the chinese will have even less of a challenge with you.
 

emceeemcee

Banned
As long as american troops are there, there will be combat. Withdraw to america, fight off the first few revenge attacks and then sit tight.


I think too many Americans regard that as surrender. They see it as their god given right to occupy other countrys and simply won't accept being told different.


The whole issue of terrorism is a load of shit. It's an attempt to disassociate imperialism from the violent backlash that accompanies it. For the Imperial minded, their foreign policy is always righteous thus any violence coming from the natives can't *possibly* be linked to their overseas conquests, but because of 'other' reasons ie they hate freedom

So it looks like America will probably have to learn same way every other deluded empire that has come before had to learn. It will continue to occupy the middle east until it's spent itself into bankruptcy and completely broken it's military. They aren't too far off that I think.


more on the mindset-

Imperialism is a state of mind as much as it is a structure of domination. That truth is central to understanding the attitude of those who presume to impose their will on others, to run the affairs of alien people, to superintend what they may do and what they may not do. Thinking in this way of the varied phenomena that we label imperialism helps to clarify what they share and where they diverge. It allows making finer grained discriminations that are especially valuable when analyzing the recent behavior of the United States. For its serial interventions do not fit comfortably into categories borrowed from the past. America's self decreed spheres of domination do not constitute another Roman empire, a British Empire, a Russian Empire or in fact anything the world has seen before. Yet it does share with imperial powers of another day certain features. They are most pronounced in the mindset that is permissive of actions directed at taking charge of others without their approval.

1 A strong sense of superiority is the bedrock of the imperial mindset. It enables and it justifies imposing oneself on others. The ingredients of superiority are physical, political and moral. Psychologically, they reinforce each other. They also are fungible - to varying degrees.
Military prowess, in making the practical tasks easier, feeds the ‘we are better” syndrome while emboldening the nation to pursue audacious ambition. Being able to do something shifts the balance in judging whether we ought to do it. For it promises to confer success. Political superiority manifests itself in two ways: as the factor that makes possible the projection of military power, and in the conviction that “we” can actually improve the life of the natives by providing them with the order and ‘enlightened’ institutions of which they themselves are incapable. That incapacity is manifest in their initial inability to resist us and, these days, in the conditions that allow things to happen that vex us, e.g. terrorists to plot attacks, drug dealers to operate, or pirates to raid.
Moral superiority is integral to the mix, especially for those who prize their self designated virtue – and see themselves as having a selfless interest in promoting it in other lands. These days that is a critical element. It has been true to a lesser extent since the enlightenment – thus France’s ‘mission civilisatrice’ and Britain’s vain belief in advancing the cause of progress on all fronts. A keen sense of being a ‘good’ people concerned about uplifting others salves consciences, erases doubts and permits using dubious means to accomplish virtuous ends. This self serving perspective paves the way of course for the routinization of hypocrisy.

2. For the imperial mind, the immediate reason for intervention can be insignificant relative to the response. The incident stimulates what is a strong predisposition. In some instances, it serves merely as an excuse: “Remember the Maine,” the Bey of Algiers’ flyswatter that brushed the face of the French envoy; a Chinese governor’s crackdown on opium trafficking; the phantom Tonkin Gulf attack; Saddam’s foot-dragging about allowing United Nations’ unimpeded access to all Iraqi facilities. At other times, there may be a serious provocation, 9/11 triggering the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan. In all these instances, the imperial actor is already programmed to act aggressively and to disregard possible ensuing complications – diplomatic or military.

3. The imperial mindset is comfortable with taking charge of other peoples. Doing so is not felt as odd or improper. Controlling and giving direction to the natives is, in fact, praiseworthy insofar as it carries the promise of improving things for them, as well as for oneself. Imperialist thinking arrogates to itself the right to make that judgment according to its own lights. The decision to intervene is that nation’s alone. It requires no higher authority since none is recognized or deemed qualified. Good intentions create their own legitimacy. These days, there is some sensitivity to legitimacy. So it is desirable to have partners who serve as auxiliaries to the enterprise. Their presence masks the truth of it being in essence a unilateral action. The formal laying on of hands by a collective security organization has practical advantages, too, even if it comes after the fact. But the ‘world community’ in any guise has no rightful place in making key determinations. Ur imperialists know best, and know that they know best.
Similarly, it is unnecessary to get the prior approval of the people being subjugated. After all, if they both knew what their own enlightened interests were and were free to express them, the occasion for the intervention would not have arisen. Dictatorships, especially hostile ones, lower the threshold for intervention since they are seen as preventing the latter condition from being met. Post hoc approval by the natives is inferred from their participation in whatever governing mechanisms are put in place; even acquiescence is interpreted as confirming the occupier’s righteousness and as bestowing legitimacy.


4. An absence of empathy for the locals and a consonant dulling of sensibilities about the duress they experience is integral to the imperial personality. Cultural knowledge is sought only on instrumental terms. It is extracted and processed as just another kind of information. To develop an understanding of the natives sufficient to allow for identification with them is to threaten the innate feelings of superiority and perhaps to heighten the awareness of being an alien intruder. That is why, nowadays, there is a preference for using native interpreters and home-grown experts as tag-ons in performing occupation missions.
Lack of cultural preparation may also can be represented as a sign that there is no intention of being a long-term occupier. A sign to the locals, to outside parties and to whomever looks askance as declarations of no imperial purpose.
In addition, containing empathy is a way of avoiding inhibition about the use of violence. For it allows for a degree of depersonalization of the civilian casualties that are an inescapable accompaniment to military action. Guilt and inhibition about committing unsavory acts are muted when dealing with a depersonalized ‘them’ rather than persons whose character and individuality emerges from a known socio-cultural context.

5. The imperial state of mind is strengthened by being a collective phenomenon. Emotions play a bigger role than does deliberate thought. This is particularly important in countries where invasion and occupation go against the grain of national self-image. A threshold of initial intensity must be crossed to fuel passions that can override habit and inhibition. 9/11 did exactly that. By providing both motivation and a blanket justification for whatever is done, the imperial mindset can grow and sustain itself whatever happens ‘out there.’ Emotions of this kind have the further effect of silencing and/or ignoring critics who may bring to the fore uncomfortable facts. In other words, group think and implicit group censorship go hand-in-hand.
Selective perception thereby becomes a constant in the imperial mind set.

6. ‘Imperial’ behavior generates momentum that is as much mental as it is political or organizational. One gets accustomed to doing certain things that may have seemed disagreeable if not unnatural at the outset. The second and third times become instinctively easier. This holds even where the first intervention/occupation has been anything but an unalloyed success. The accommodating attitudes become routinized as inertia of all kinds carries the process forward. The imperial mentality feeds on itself just as one intervention creates a military cum political dynamic that impels a nation towards subsequent interventions.

7. A companion feature of the imperial mentality is its susceptibility to
becoming prisoner of expectations. To set down the path of imposing oneself on others is to make a bet on success. For the stake is not only the stated objective but all that has been invested in the project. Beyond resources - human, financial, diplomatic –there is collective self esteem. There is the collectivity’s sense of moral worth. This last figures prominently in the mentality of a liberal democratic society that cultivates the idea of its intrinsic virtue. To come up short (much less fail outright) is bad enough. To make hostage to that failure something that one supposedly cherishes is to court a crisis of self doubt and plunging morale. Paradoxically, plowing ahead can put off that day of reckoning by keeping regrets at bay– for a time. This is so even where the ultimate consequences are more painful.

8. The imperial personality is highly judgmental. It is free and easy with criticism of the natives. The typical mode of address is to instruct, to lecture, to correct, to remonstrate, to scold and, if necessary, to coerce. The underlying sense of superiority means that if something goes badly, then ‘they’ have to be at fault – for one reason or another. To admit error, much less to apologize for it, is to undercut that image of superiority. Giving oneself license to treat the natives as subordinates is a way of defending the core premise that I have a right to take custody of you. Acceptance of equality on any plane is incompatible with the imperial mindset. Hence the importance placed on segregated, self contained residential compounds.

9. Rebellion against invasion/occupation is neither authentic more valid to the imperialist mind. It is be denounced and repressed. The more serious the rebellion, the stronger the impulse to cast its members as evil-doers. This line of thinking/feeling flows from the justification for the intervention relied on in the first place. To acknowledge that rebels have any fair reason to turn on their occupiers is to call into question the legitimacy of what the superior party is doing.

Moreover, rejection is labeled ungrateful. This reaction is in direct proportion to the extent to which the occupation is described as benevolent and in the best interest of the natives. That explains why the charge of ingratitude is so heavily freighted these days. It is not an entirely novel phenomenon, as a perusal of the graphic portraits drawn of diabolical Sepoy rebels drawn in Punch and other British journals makes stunningly clear.

http://security.nationaljournal.com/2010/06/gaza-flotilla-s
trategic-blunde.php#1590695
 

emceeemcee

Banned
Collapsing empire watch:

It's easy to say and easy to document, but quite difficult to really internalize, that the United States is in the process of imperial collapse. Every now and then, however, one encounters certain facts which compellingly and viscerally highlight how real that is. Here's the latest such fact, from a new study in Health Affairs by Columbia Health Policy Professors Peter A. Muennig and Sherry A. Glied (h/t):

In 1950, the United States was fifth among the leading industrialized nations with respect to female life expectancy at birth, surpassed only by Sweden, Norway, Australia, and the Netherlands. The last available measure of female life expectancy had the United States ranked at forty-sixth in the world. As of September 23, 2010, the United States ranked forty-ninth for both male and female life expectancy combined.

Just to underscore the rapidity of the decline, as recently as 1999, the U.S. was ranked by the World Health Organization as 24th in life expectancy. It's now 49th. There are other similarly potent indicators. In 2009, the National Center for Health Statistics ranked the U.S. in 30th place in global infant mortality rates. Out of 20 "rich countries" measured by UNICEF, the U.S. ranks 19th in "child well-being." Out of 33 nations measured by the OECD, the U.S. ranks 27th for student math literacy and 22nd for student science literacy. In 2009, the World Economic Forum ranked 133 nations in terms of "soundness" of their banks, and the U.S. was ranked in 108th place, just behind Tanzania and just ahead of Venezuela.

There is, however, some good news: the U.S. is now in fifth place in total number of executions, behind only China, Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia, and comfortably ahead of Yemen and Sudan, while there are two categories in which the U.S. has been and remains the undisputed champion of the world -- this one and this one. And, of course, the U.S. is not just objectively the greatest country on the planet, but the greatest country ever to exist in all of human history -- as Dave Roberts put it in response to these life expectancy numbers: "but we're No. 1 in bestness!" -- so we're every bit as exceptional as ever.
l
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/10/11/empire/index.htm




Looks like Emmanuel Todd's predictions were spot on again.
 

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
I think too many Americans regard that as surrender. They see it as their god given right to occupy other countrys and simply won't accept being told different.


The whole issue of terrorism is a load of shit. It's an attempt to disassociate imperialism from the violent backlash that accompanies it. For the Imperial minded, their foreign policy is always righteous thus any violence coming from the natives can't *possibly* be linked to their overseas conquests, but because of 'other' reasons ie they hate freedom

So it looks like America will probably have to learn same way every other deluded empire that has come before had to learn. It will continue to occupy the middle east until it's spent itself into bankruptcy and completely broken it's military. They aren't too far off that I think.


more on the mindset

I believe it. Sadly.
I hope not, we'll need america to defeat china.
 
No. I haven't changed his name to anything. In fact I don't put his name in any of my posts.

You're thinking of the other people who call him "Helldoucher" or something else.

And there is not an ounce of whining in my post. Nice try. Move along.


Negative rep accepted. My bad, I thought you were one of those who did.
 
More arrogance from a nation that still thinks it took care of the second world war.

How quaint.

well, we did in the Pacific i must say.

and when it comes to the European Theater, its true to say that the Russians and the Brits coulda done it eventually, but it would have taken a hell of a lot longer. and if the war had gone into '46 and later the Germans would have had some terrifying technology that would have leveled the playing field by far.

not to mention the amount of planes, tanks, supplies etc we shipped over there. that alone says a lot.
 
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