WWII ; Was Allied bombing of Germany a war crime?

[lurkingdirk]

Them's fightin' words where I come from. Bring it on, bitch!!!

Besides, somehow you have zero rep and nothing but red chiclets so that must say a lot about you and it ain't good!

It means I'm too awesome for FreeOnes to acknowledge.

You, on the other hand, are welcome to acknowledge my awesomeness at any point. You know you feel it. My aweseomeness.

 

[Jagger69]

It means I'm too awesome for FreeOnes to acknowledge.

You, on the other hand, are welcome to acknowledge my awesomeness at any point. You know you feel it. My aweseomeness.

Awesomeness hereby acknowledged.....even if you can't spell "awesomeness".

 

[lurkingdirk]

Awesomeness hereby acknowledged.....even if you can't spell "awesomeness".

You win this round, you magnificent bastard.

 

[assari]

Absolutely not with one possible exception:

You mean it is not wrong to drop bombs on civilian targets?

 

[Jagger69]

You mean it is not wrong to drop bombs on civilian targets?

Wrong? I really don't like the term "wrong" as it applies to strategic bombing operations where industrial or military facilities are being targeted. The fact that civilians are killed as a result is an unfortunate but very real consequence of the concept of total war, a strategic policy where all resources, populations and infrastructures are considered fair-game. In a total-war conflict (like WWII), collateral civilian damage is considered a given when combatants are engaged in battle. The difference between typical bombing of strategic targets where civilian casualties are incurred and operations like the Dresden firebombing is intent. The intent with Dresden was to strike terror into the hearts of the Germans and destroy their will by brutally laying waste to a city and its populace that otherwise had no significant strategic value. All of the rest of the Allied bombing campaigns against Germany of which I am aware had destruction of military and/or industrial facilities as the intended targets and not innocent civilians. Therein lies the difference IMO.

The only way to prevent collateral civilian casualties is to go back to the way war was traditionally fought prior to the American Civil War, the Napoleonic Wars and even the French Revolution when armies typically met on a specific field of battle and combatants would fight hand-to-hand until one side or the other was vanquished without any civilian involvement.

Now....if you want to debate whether the concept of war itself is wrong....:dunno:

 

[Sam Fisher]

When it comes to war, there can be no RULES.

 

[sean miguel]

War does suck and should be avoided at all cost.

But when the choice is between a peace with tyranny/slavery and war there really is no choice.

 

[assari]

Now....if you want to debate whether the concept of war itself is wrong....:dunno:

Thanks for your answer...

I do not know English so well that I could discuss issues such as the philosophy of war.

But this topic could be summarized like this;

Can it be said that American, British and German Air Force leaders and pilots were child murderers?

They did not see the victims, but they knew what will happen when the bombs dropped on civilian targets.

 

[Jagger69]

Can it be said that American, British and German Air Force leaders and pilots were child murderers?

Webster defines the term murder as follows: "The crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought".

The Allied (or Axis for that matter) pilots executed their orders as a matter of duty, not with "malice aforethought" for the innocent civilians who were sacrificed as an unfortunate by-product of the bombings so, no, it can not be said that they were murderers.

 

[vodkazvictim]

It is really good to have Jagger around again.

Can I get an amen?

A-cockring-men!

When it comes to war, there can be no RULES.

So 9/11 was justified? That's a mighty controversial opinion you got there, boy.

Thanks for your answer...

I do not know English so well that I could discuss issues such as the philosophy of war.

But this topic could be summarized like this;

Can it be said that American, British and German Air Force leaders and pilots were child murderers?

They did not see the victims, but they knew what will happen when the bombs dropped on civilian targets.

It could be said, albeit rather unfairly.
One of the main issues is that technology & tactics made it hard to hit targets without "collateral damage" as it's rather euphemistically called.

Webster defines the term murder as follows: "The crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought".

The Allied (or Axis for that matter) pilots executed their orders as a matter of duty, not with "malice aforethought" for the innocent civilians who were sacrificed as an unfortunate by-product of the bombings so, no, it can not be said that they were murderers.

So lawfully killing a person a person with malice aforethought is fine? So, given that Jihadis are acting in accordance with Sharia law, we must say that they're not murderers?

On a sidenote, analysts of WW2 concluded that fighterbombers (eg the Mosquito) performed rather more efficiently than heavy bombers., we should remember that one man's collateral damage is another man's child.
Also

 

[Jagger69]

So lawfully killing a person a person with malice aforethought is fine?

Evidently it is. See the Texas capital punishment statute for further clarification.

 

[lurkingdirk]

Webster defines the term murder as follows: "The crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought".

The Allied (or Axis for that matter) pilots executed their orders as a matter of duty, not with "malice aforethought" for the innocent civilians who were sacrificed as an unfortunate by-product of the bombings so, no, it can not be said that they were murderers.

It is interesting to note that quite a few pilots who flew bombing missions did develop depression and regret following the wars. While I don't count them as murderers, they obviously have some reservations, justified or not.

 

[CptHa]

Going strictly by LOAC, yes, it was a war crime. Had Germany won, Ike would've been put on trial in the same manner as the Nuremburg Trial (though the sentence would have been a forgone conclusion).

 

[Sam Fisher]

I would have to say that regardless whether the bombs were dropped on railyards, submarine bases, ball bearing factories or, on the general population, people were going to be killed either way. Surely there were humans at all those locations. The vast majority of the German people backed Hitler in the 1930s and up to 1945. To say the German population was unaware of the mass killings that the Nazis were inflicting upon the physically handicapped, mentally retarded, seniors, and not to mention the Jews, is ludicrous. Mass genocide was taking place, and it had to be stopped. Are we to turn a blind eye to what leaders of countries do to their own people?

Mao Zedong was responsible for between 34,000,000 to 68,000,000 deaths.

Stalin: 23,000,000 - 60,000,000 deaths

Hitler: 6,000,000 deaths

Hideki Tojo: 5,000,000 deaths

Pol Pot: 2,500,000 deaths

It's a shame those German cities were bombed. But, in the big scheme of things, I imagine the decision was made in order to break the will of the German people. And, I think it worked.

 

[Sam Fisher]

If anyone has access to Netflix, there is an excellent documentary about Genocide. The title is: Worse Than War

I highly recommend it.

 

[vodkazvictim]

I would have to say that regardless whether the bombs were dropped on railyards, submarine bases, ball bearing factories or, on the general population, people were going to be killed either way. Surely there were humans at all those locations. The vast majority of the German people backed Hitler in the 1930s and up to 1945. To say the German population was unaware of the mass killings that the Nazis were inflicting upon the physically handicapped, mentally retarded, seniors, and not to mention the Jews, is ludicrous. Mass genocide was taking place, and it had to be stopped. Are we to turn a blind eye to what leaders of countries do to their own people?

Mao Zedong was responsible for between 34,000,000 to 68,000,000 deaths.

Stalin: 23,000,000 - 60,000,000 deaths

Hitler: 6,000,000 deaths

Hideki Tojo: 5,000,000 deaths

Pol Pot: 2,500,000 deaths

It's a shame those German cities were bombed. But, in the big scheme of things, I imagine the decision was made in order to break the will of the German people. And, I think it worked.

If anyone has access to Netflix, there is an excellent documentary about Genocide. The title is: Worse Than War

I highly recommend it.

I don't get it; how come shitstain sudenly makes sense?

 

[lurkingdirk]

I don't get it; how come shitstain sudenly makes sense?

He's making an effort. Let him.

 

[John_8581]

This statement is just shit. The Nazis hid military targets in the midst of civilian targets, forcing the Allies to bomb there. Look at what was happening, then decide if bombing strategic targets that were in civilian areas (by Nazi design) is a bad idea. It was evil. A necessary evil.

Agree with you Dirk 110 %. Assari's thread is not to be believed. I heard a story a long time ago that Allied Prisoners of War, Brits and Americans, were sometimes put onto Japanese warships; aircraft carriers, battleships, destroyers, cruisers.... to work in the lower depths of these ships, like in the engine rooms and such. If they didn't do the work, they were threatened with being bayonetted to death. Needless to say, many Allied POWs perished when these ships sank when bombed by U.S. Navy fighters and bombers in bombing strikes.

 

[assari]

Assari's thread is not to be believed.

This is a bit difficult topic because the Germans are too scared to tell their own opinion, but some sources claim that about 300 000 German civilians were killed in bombing 1939-1945.


http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/bombing_world_war_two.htm

 

[John_8581]

This is a bit difficult topic because the Germans are too scared to tell their own opinion, but some sources claim that about 300 000 German civilians were killed in bombing 1939-1945.


http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/bombing_world_war_two.htm

Interesting. That's about the same number of German women who died as a result of being raped by the Red Army as they stormed Berlin in 1945. Allright it is a bit less...

"Female deaths in connection with the rapes in Germany, overall, are estimated at 240,000.[9][10] Antony Beevor describes it as the "greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history", and has concluded that at least 1.4 million women were raped in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia alone.[11]" - Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

War is hell.