Where do you draw the line on downloading stuff illegally?

[anotherguy]

anotherguy, you owe me a few hundred bucks at least for the CDs and DVDs I've bought at escalated prices because of your file sharing. hehehe LOL!

I'l pay up as soon as you show me the exact effect of my (only mine) file sharing!

and technically I dont fileshare because I only download not upload. Im a selfish filesharer....... :ban:

Cheers, guys. I think this horse is dead and beaten.

Yeah its been an interesting thread but unless anyhting groundbreaking happens in the news I dont think theres anything more anyone can say... :thumbsup:

Cheers :hatsoff:

 

[member11579]

Yes stealing is stealing etc etc... but the whole reason it started was due to prices being too high, and it is quite clear to the consumer that those prices are too high! If albums and DVDs or whatever were released at more affordable prices, I imagine a whole lot less piracy would go on... and they may even shift more units!

A lot of businesses seem to focus more on market share than on profit margins currently (example - wait til the new Harry Potter book - everyone and their dog will sell it at a loss to get market share) so why they dont just have a price review of multimedia across the board is beyond me!

 

[member11579]

Apologies for double posting this thread but I saw this and had to add it here!

 

[ilikethesun2009]

Obviously, the key is to record songs off the radio (traditional or satellite), claim that you now own it or something, and then go download the very same song off a p2p. Just keep the tapes in a box under your bed for archive purposes. I'm curious, it has been said that there is nothing wrong with copying off the radio. Well, what if I make a mix tape for a friend? What if I mass produce mix tapes? Where is the cutoff of how many tapes I can legally produce without being a theif? Here's another good question, what about all the old vinyl records purchased back in the day? I purchased those songs, I own those songs, why can't I go on and get digial copies of them, legally? Ludacris. What if I hook up my satellite radio DIRECTLY to my computer and record shit off of it? What happens then, where have I wronged? Did you know that if a photographer takes pictures of you (i.e. Reunion, Graduation...) you cannot legally copy those pictures? I'm the one in the fricking picture, I should be able to copy the hell out of it if I choose. Where are my intellectual rights when it comes to my own image? Anyway, I think those are a few good points and I think there are PLENTY of gray areas, and they will, as always, be debated in the arena of ideas.

 

[member11579]

Well your radio argument is kinda pointless as, mentioned earlier, they rarely if EVER play an entire song on the radio, for exactly that reason!

I like your point though on the intellectual rights regarding the images of yourself... wonder what the law says on that shit...

 

[Dinalt]

:wave2: Interesting about the radio point - as Internet radio stations tend to play the full song. Some of these broadcast at 128k and above - good enough for near cd quality, so are these legal to copy ?

But there's no arguing with the fact that stealing's stealing. Problem is, like I said before in the thread, there are too many 'grey' areas (see point above) - and consumers are getting ripped off.

And I don't think the death of P2P would reduce prices for consumers either.

Look at most of the major record companies & film studios. Most of these are owned by a few corporations, e.g. Sony etc.
So they've got a monopoly on the market, and can dictate prices as they see fit.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but certainly Europe tends to get a bad deal on software and music pricing.
Even taking tax differences into account, there's a wide disparity in pricing between different countries. So who's ripping who off ?

I know others have commented on court rulings regarding 'grey' imports. These were fully legal copies imported from the far east, that even with shipping duties worked out cheaper than buying in England.
However, the record companies stopped this.

The same has happened with clothing and electrical products before - the company dictates a price, and the shop has to sell at that price.
A few years back, one of our supermarket chains started selling Levi's jeans at a cheaper price - only to be told not to.

So I think slightly differently about P2P. I don't use it, as I like to buy my software etc. in a box.
But it's probably helping to keep pricing down, rather than inflating it, as companies are having to realistically price goods in order to sell them.

Without P2P, companies would have no incentive to offer value for money to consumers, as there'd be no 'competition'. (As I've already said. Behind the labels, there's only a few companies running everything).

Microsoft is a good example in point. It buys everything it can, purely to eliminate competition - and can then charge whatever it likes.
It knows it can do this, as there aren't any viable alternatives for most computer users. It's a case of 'you want it, you pay our price'.
I know there's Linux (which I also use and love), but in all honesty most people want software that will run everything. (i.e. latest games etc.).

So I don't believe these organisations claims on P2P, or its impact on pricing etc. (Look at the figures for retail sales, and these are steadily increasing year on year - despite P2P).

Companies are only interested in ripping people off as much as they can, and if P2P vanishes, prices will almost certainly rise.

 

[ilikethesun2009]

Well your radio argument is kinda pointless as, mentioned earlier, they rarely if EVER play an entire song on the radio, for exactly that reason!

Thanks for the tip. From now on, I'll delete the first and last five seconds of the a song then I can file share all I want, because it's not the entire song, just like on the radio. Now everyone is happy...

 

[yogart32]

usually i only download porn from the internet

 

[McRocket]

usually i only download porn from the internet

Me too.

 

[McRocket]

Bingo, Cheeky Monkey.

Ask ANY sensible business person, or even business student. "Shrinkage" or theft is unfortunately a fact of life, and businesses price that % into the retail sticker price. Whenever you go to the store and pay $10 for a "gizmo," a certain % of that $10 is going back to the retailer for the things people have stolen from their store. They're not going to sit there and take the hit/loss. They want a positive financial report. So who pays for the thefts? You and me.

It works the same way with P2P file sharing. If there is a demand of 2 million units of a certain new CD I am releasing, but 15% of that demand will be vaporized by punk-ass college kids downloading tracks via P2P file sharing, what do you think I am going to do with the price of my remaining 1,700,000 CDs? I'm going to bump it up 15% (or more) to make up for the thefts...

This is not exquisitely complex economics, and it's not a grey area morally or ethically (or legally) either. Either you pay for it or you steal it. Some people seem to have this feeling of entitlement to things which they cannot afford, but they WANT (not need), and simply because the technology is out there that makes it dead simple for them to steal, they rationalize it and say "well, it's overpriced anyway by those big greedy companies." That's crap, and they know it. But I suppose it helps them to clear their consciences.

Whatever. Stealing is stealing, and someone has to pay for it. anotherguy, you owe me a few hundred bucks at least for the CDs and DVDs I've bought at escalated prices because of your file sharing. hehehe LOL!

Cheers, guys. I think this horse is dead and beaten.

Good points and well said...imo.

But what the person below (well below your post) typed is true also. IF music prices were cheaper, the rip offs would subside noticeably. Anytime someone selling something gets greedy with something very popular - a grey market appears. Anytime they get VERY greedy - a black market appears.
IMO, there is NO justifiable reason why CD's should cost what they do. There is no reason why artists should make SO much money on each record. Or why Sony, et al should make SO much money on each record. I don't care about marketing. If a CD is good enough. It will sell eventually. Word of mouth and the underground will see to that.
I still don't agree with downloading music for free. Especially those that do it continuously. Especially, if the artist they are downloading has publicly stated that they view it as stealing their material. But, right now, the music industry is too big and greedy. And like it or not, P2P is guaranteed to force the companies to bring the prices down. They will simply have to. Just like in Asia. And if they are able to do it there (and eventually do it here) then that just proves how big their profit margins realy are/were. and how greedy they were being.
And the artists? Well, the richer ones will have to settle for $5,000,000 homes instead of $10,000,000 ones.

 

[member2686]

It's funny how little some people know about economics and law, yet they are so ridiculously opinionated about "big greedy companies ripping us off." Come on!!! Get off your Robin Hood high horses, folks... Read the copyright laws and the Fair Use Doctrine, etc. Google it. This discussion should have ended a LONG time ago if you would have read up on the law and precedents, etc.

Dead horse. Beaten. Pulverized. Pulp. Roadkill.

Theft is theft. Pay or steal. End of story. I'm not posting any more on this topic (at least in THIS thread). It's a waste of time if people aren't willing to read up on things themselves and just want to bitch about prices and profit margins.

Cheers. :hatsoff: :nanner:

 

[McRocket]

It's funny how little some people know about economics and law, yet they are so ridiculously opinionated about "big greedy companies ripping us off." Come on!!! Get off your Robin Hood high horses, folks... Read the copyright laws and the Fair Use Doctrine, etc. Google it. This discussion should have ended a LONG time ago if you would have read up on the law and precedents, etc.

Dead horse. Beaten. Pulverized. Pulp. Roadkill.

Theft is theft. Pay or steal. End of story. I'm not posting any more on this topic (at least in THIS thread). It's a waste of time if people aren't willing to read up on things themselves and just want to bitch about prices and profit margins.

Cheers. :hatsoff: :nanner:

Well, with all due respect. I don't think it's a waste of time. I welcome the opinions and the different viewpoints. I am learning a little bit myself along the way. No way anyone is going to change their mind without inout from others.

I do think it is wrong. But one person's wrong is another person's justified action. When I was much younger there was a host of things that I thought one way on and now feel very differently about.

 

[Dinalt]

It's funny how little some people know about economics and law, yet they are so ridiculously opinionated about "big greedy companies ripping us off." Come on!!! Get off your Robin Hood high horses, folks... Read the copyright laws and the Fair Use Doctrine, etc. Google it. This discussion should have ended a LONG time ago if you would have read up on the law and precedents, etc.

Dead horse. Beaten. Pulverized. Pulp. Roadkill.

Theft is theft. Pay or steal. End of story. I'm not posting any more on this topic (at least in THIS thread). It's a waste of time if people aren't willing to read up on things themselves and just want to bitch about prices and profit margins.

Cheers. :hatsoff: :nanner:

I totally agree with this part of your statement:

Theft is theft. Pay or steal

But like most things in life, this issue isn't just black & white. As I've already said, I don't do P2P - but the other issues are intrinsically linked to the whole file sharing issue.

Let's get down to basics, and agree that much of the legal system is based on a morality code.
By this, I mean it's how we expect to be treated - and have others treat us. (In a smaller way, like the Freeones posting rules).
It's this morality system that holds a society together, and large corporations shouldn't be any different to anyone else.

The reason most corporations fear the Internet, is because it's finally given us instant access to global pricing.
At the touch of a button, I can compare prices for any DVD in any country - and see exactly how much I'm being ripped off.
So when corporations don't have a 'moral conscience', how can we expect individuals to respect their product or marketing decisions.

This isn't an excuse for P2P, merely a reason for why it's so popular. In a free market, we should be able to choose which country we want to buy from - but we're prohibited from this by large corporations stopping us.

So if people know they're being 'ripped off' by large organisations, and don't feel they're being treated fairly, then they'll turn to other sources.

So yes, theft is theft - but it isn't purely a black and white issue. Nor is the case closed.
To understand the P2P phenomena, you have to look at the underlying reasons, many of which have been stated in this thread.

Thanks one and all for keeping this an interesting thread :bowdown:

 

[ilikethesun2009]

Nobody has yet to give me a definitive answer on my question of Vinyl records....

One more thing though. There are alot of CDs that I have, that I wouldn't have had it not been for the ilegal sampling I did of the songs online...

 

[McRocket]

Good points Dinalt. Way to not be polarized. Life can be very gray at times. And I think this subject is one of those times.

 

[XanderJack]

Line??? I know no stinking line, download it all.

 

[ilikethesun2009]

lol

 

[HERO2]

hey guys, let me put it this way- illegal, schmeagal- it ain't illegal until ya get caught

 

[McRocket]

hey guys, let me put it this way- illegal, schmeagal- it ain't illegal until ya get caught

Spoken by a person who obviously never got caught.

 

[Dinalt]

Good points Dinalt. Way to not be polarized. Life can be very gray at times. And I think this subject is one of those times.

:glugglug: Cheers mcrocket!

I think there's plenty of life left in this thread, as there are so many other underlying issues.

This is a little off topic, but consider this:

If corporations like Sony (Music & Video company) are so against piracy, why do they sell the following items:

1) MP3 players.
2) CD recorders.
3) Video recorders.
4) DVD recorders.
5) Blank media, ie blank DVD's, CD's, Videos & Audio Tapes.
6) DVD players that can play back Mpeg4 coded CD-R's etc. (i.e. Xvid & Divx).

Whilst these can all be used for legitimate purposes, i.e. backing up data or home movies, how many of us use them for that purpose ?

If they're that against the spread of piracy, stop selling these consumer items. It just seems hypocritical to sell these products, and then moan when people use them for illegal purposes.