Where do you draw the line on downloading stuff illegally?

[McRocket]

I more or less agree with what Nightfly is saying. However I do not believe that earning a paycheque, no matter what the profession is honourable.
There are MANY dishonourable professions that people do and just right it off by saying things like, 'it's my job.' Or, 'if I don't do it, someone else will.'

In terms of downloading. It is simple (imo). If you download something without the permission of those that created it - it is stealing. Period. That goes for movies, songs, video games AND porn.
Yes, I have downloaded porn. But it is still stealing. No, I do not download the rest. I guess I am a thief. An karma will, as always, catch up to me on it.

 

[jdb67]

In a nut shell, If I cant access what I want over the Net free & legally, then it is not for me......

 

[TheSleeper]

All I know is there is a lot of crappy artists out there, and I am not going to waste money on all of them. Although I do like downloading music for free just to upset Lars Ulrich. Muhahahahahaha, muhahahahahahaha!!

 

[ilikethesun2009]

It's interesting to remember that the labels and everyone complained about cassette tapes when they first came out, thinking that mass amounts of people copying off the radio would cause problems. It was taken to court, I don't know all the details, but as you can see, there are still cassette recorders. Same thing when Sony introduced the Betamaxx. It was also taken to court, again I don't know the details, but there are VHS machines today and we can copy TV shows. Now it's the Internet. I don't really care where it goes, but it will be interesting to watch. I don't believe though that it should be up to us to change, the industry should have to change with the times.
Correct me if I'm wrong too, but don't artists make the most of their money off concerts and promotion type crap like that. What percentage of their CD sales actually goto them? Again, I really don't care, the music I download cannot be found on the legal sites anyway.

 

[member2686]

Recording TV shows and radio broadcasts for your personal use is perfectly legal. Distribution of digital, perfect copies of copywritten materials from your computer to any anonymous user via P2P file sharing is NOT legal because it is not "personal use" but rather piracy.

 

[Brino]

What's your reasoning? I don't understand the distinction between the two. All 3 are created by someone else to entertain others. Why is music different in your eyes from the other two? Because it's not visual?

It's just personal preference, I just don't think music is worth 10$-20$ especially if theres only one song on the album that I want, other people might feel differently. Now if a CD was 5$-10$ then it would be different, I buy CDs that cheap all the time.

 

[Brino]

Recording TV shows and radio broadcasts for your personal use is perfectly legal. Distribution of digital, perfect copies of copywritten materials from your computer to any anonymous user via P2P file sharing is NOT legal because it is not "personal use" but rather piracy.

Not True. Take the NFL for example, (I don't know if you watch football or not but I'm going to use it as an example anyways) Before/After every broadcast it says that "This Program is Copyrighted and may not be reproduced in any fashion etc. etc." so technically it's not legal but people still do it. Now it may not be this way with every tv program but I know it is with some.

 

[tunsty]

An interesting point to note, if I were to record a film from Tv onto dvd/video - that's not theft, if I download the film over a fileshare and put on dvd, that is theft.
In either case, I might not own a copy of the film and I didn't directly pay for it, but one is legal, the other isn't. It's a fine line to tread.
Either way, the film is still being sold in stores for whatever price.. so it would seem that people will still buy movies, no matter what.
Same with music, I could sit down and record songs from say Mtv and burn them to disc, is that stealing?, or more like opportunity?
If it is the former, then I guess most people will have at some time recorded a song from tv or radio, I wouldn't expect them all to be considered thieves... just opportunists.

When the music and movie industries talk about piracy, they are talking mainly about large scale professional piracy.
Eastern Europe and particularly Asia are the main culprits for it... yet has anyone heard of the RIAA going after people in these parts of the world?... nope, thought not.
In fact, DVD'S and CD'S have been deliberately down-priced in these countries to discourage it, me and you, we still pay the full whack.
Much easier to bully lil'ole you and me with our half dozen ill-gotten songs than to stop thousands of big-time pirates.

 

[Aces&Jacks]

Not True. Take the NFL for example, (I don't know if you watch football or not but I'm going to use it as an example anyways) Before/After every broadcast it says that "This Program is Copyrighted and may not be reproduced in any fashion etc. etc." so technically it's not legal but people still do it. Now it may not be this way with every tv program but I know it is with some.

The warning says "This telecast is copyrighted by the NFL. Any rebroadcast without the express permission of the NFL is strictly prohibited." It's designed to keep people from profiting commercially from NFL football. It is not a warning for people to not record the program for later viewing in the privacy of their own home. I worked at a television station and this question came up often.

 

[Brino]

The warning says "This telecast is copyrighted by the NFL. Any rebroadcast without the express permission of the NFL is strictly prohibited." It's designed to keep people from profiting commercially from NFL football. It is not a warning for people to not record the program for later viewing in the privacy of their own home. I worked at a television station and this question came up often.

Thanks for clearing that up. :hatsoff:

Tunsty makes a good point. :thumbsup:

 

[member2686]

There are ongoing operations in many countries all over the world to break up piracy rings. They don't make huge news stories lots of times, but it's an ongoing thing.

As to recording stuff from TV and radio for your own personal use, that's legal (in the USA). They don't call advertisements on radio and TV "commercials" for no reason. The sponsors of the programming have paid for the broadcasting, and since they have paid for the broadcast and run their annoying ads during the programming, what you and I get as consumers is interrupted, imperfect, non-original programming. Radio stations NEVER play a song start to finish without some talk over parts of it (there are some exceptions to this), and in many cases, songs have special radio edit versions to limit the time/length.

P2P file sharing allows for PERFECT reproduction and virtually limitless redistribution, en masse, of copywritten products. No one sponsors the distribution, and it is not "broadcast."

The law is very clear in most countries on this issue. I don't understand how anyone, in good conscience, can deny that P2P file sharing of copywritten material (for which they have not paid) is theft. We can bitch and piss and moan about how retail prices are too high, sure, but in the end, it comes down to one thing -- did you PAY for it or did you steal it?

Someone above mentioned downloading porn. Let me assure you -- the galleries posted online, in the VAST majority of cases, are teaser galleries and expressly published online to GET YOU TO JOIN A SITE. Ever wonder why almost every link you click on from the FreeOnes index of models has a FreeOnes banner ad on it? It's cross-promotion and revenue sharing and advertising. FreeOnes is not a hobby site. It's a business, and a profitable one! It's virtually the same on every (adult/commercial) site. Sure, you can see hot galleries of 16-20 pics of a model, but the FULL gallery on the model's website has maybe 120 pics for the shoot. What we see is teaser material and it's EXPECTED that you don't pay for that, but hopefully you'll join the site.

Well, this discussion is getting on my nerves. "I don't want to pay $20 if the CD has just 2 good songs and the rest is crap." Fine. Buy the tracks you want using iTunes, the new Napster, MusicMatch, or one of the many other pay-per-track services. As long as people are out there stealing shit via P2P, prices will not only stay high, they'll likely go HIGHER.

Anyway...lol I have a severe case of insomnia tonight and I'm kinda edgy. My apologies. I need to sleep but I can't. Don't you just hate that?! LOL

 

[tunsty]

There are ongoing operations in many countries all over the world to break up piracy rings. They don't make huge news stories lots of times, but it's an ongoing thing.

Yes, I would agree that would be the case.
Trouble is, the countries that a bases for this sort of thing, aren't necessarily too bothered about stopping it.

As to recording stuff from TV and radio for your own personal use, that's legal (in the USA). They don't call advertisements on radio and TV "commercials" for no reason. The sponsors of the programming have paid for the broadcasting, and since they have paid for the broadcast and run their annoying ads during the programming, what you and I get as consumers is interrupted, imperfect, non-original programming. Radio stations NEVER play a song start to finish without some talk over parts of it (there are some exceptions to this), and in many cases, songs have special radio edit versions to limit the time/length.

Again, that is so true, I know from my own experience of recording from radio.
But I have recorded songs from radio, after which I have not bothered to buy it in a store.
As for MTV etc, they often do play songs from start to finish.


I have to say, as a p2p user myself, I'm feeling a little guilty after reading through this thread.
Maybe it's time for me to repent.... :angels:

 

[TonyThaTiger30]

Someone above mentioned downloading porn. Let me assure you -- the galleries posted online, in the VAST majority of cases, are teaser galleries and expressly published online to GET YOU TO JOIN A SITE. Ever wonder why almost every link you click on from the FreeOnes index of models has a FreeOnes banner ad on it? It's cross-promotion and revenue sharing and advertising. FreeOnes is not a hobby site. It's a business, and a profitable one! It's virtually the same on every (adult/commercial) site. Sure, you can see hot galleries of 16-20 pics of a model, but the FULL gallery on the model's website has maybe 120 pics for the shoot. What we see is teaser material and it's EXPECTED that you don't pay for that, but hopefully you'll join the site.

Freeones is a great site, but come on, is it the only one you have ever been to? Yes I know that picture sets can have a hundred or more pictures to some of them. But there are sites out there where you can look at the whole set and not pay a dime. Someone payed and grabbed and put them on their own site. Are you saying you have never seen any full set of someone without paying for it. Even on here you get an occasional link to a ful set, what do you do when that comes up, just close it out right quick? Not trying to take any sides here and every one is entitled to their opinion, but will you please lay off with the whole everyone is a thief thing.

 

[anotherguy]

Right - bear with me on this one, try not to tak eit on face value because im not comparing the two situations at all, but.....


The french revolution (link) during 1789 - 1799 was where the democrats and the republicans overthrew the absolute monarchy in order to achieve a better life. We could take a view of this that what they were doing was against the law, no if's no buts, they did wrong. but then you could take the view that by doing this, by breaking the law, they achieved a better life, they stood up for things they believed in and opposed things they believed to be wrong.

right if we take this to the music / peer to peer industry....

Us as consumers have never had more power of companies. We are getting tired of being ripped of and technology has given us the means to fight back on a global scale a means to say enough is enough - change or we'll carry on getting music illeagally. With legal peer to peer networks such as itunes the record companies are still ripping us and artists off (link ) It says that artists still keep the same amount (about $1 I think i read on another site)

But I know what your thinking - reguardless of this people getting music for free still pushes the prices up for the rest of us ad the artists will get less.

Steven King did a interesting experiment where he cut out all his publishers / middlemen and found away to get around 100% of the books takings. How? he released the first chapter for free online on his website and said that he'l release each subsiquent chapter when people send him enough money. As I recall it didnt work and the whole book was not released so you may think it pointless me bringing it up, but the idea is interesting.

I'd happily stop downloading music if I knew the artists were going to get the vast majority of the money - if they used the above method for example. And I know its not going to happen anytime soon but I think that if we give in and say yeah its illegal so I'l stop then nothing will change.

*rant over :2 cents: *

 

[McRocket]

Freeones is a great site, but come on, is it the only one you have ever been to? Yes I know that picture sets can have a hundred or more pictures to some of them. But there are sites out there where you can look at the whole set and not pay a dime. Someone payed and grabbed and put them on their own site. Are you saying you have never seen any full set of someone without paying for it. Even on here you get an occasional link to a ful set, what do you do when that comes up, just close it out right quick? Not trying to take any sides here and every one is entitled to their opinion, but will you please lay off with the whole everyone is a thief thing.

I think you were meaning to tell that to me, not Nightfly. I was the one who was saying it is illegal or stealing or whatever.
I am referring to a woman with her own website who said that she doesn't like it when people share her photos without including links or anything. She knows it is reality. But she doesn't like it. And let's be honest. I could download just about every photo of just about every model out there who has a website for free. And I would then have no need to get a subscription to her site. And she loses out. That is why if I download say 100+ photos of a gal. I will then usually get a subscription to her site for one month just to compensate her.

 

[tunsty]

I was listening to someone on the radio the other day ( someone 'in the biz', as it were), who was pointing out that any losses incurred by music companies through piracy , actually comes out of the artists royalties.
To put it another way, the record company take their cut (the full amount), then the artist gets whatever is left.
I can't take anything the music industry says at face value,
yes, piracy is hitting their profits and is not to be condoned, but those same companies would put Cd prices up and up if people didn't say anything... after all, they have the market cornered.
These same companies have gone to court to prevent 'Grey' imports from Asia coming into the west and being sold cheaply.
'Buy from us, at full price, or be damned' seems to be the motto.

 

[McRocket]

I think you were meaning to tell that to me, not Nightfly. I was the one who was saying it is illegal or stealing or whatever.
I am referring to a woman with her own website who said that she doesn't like it when people share her photos without including links or anything. She knows it is reality. But she doesn't like it. And let's be honest. I could download just about every photo of just about every model out there who has a website for free. And I would then have no need to get a subscription to her site. And she loses out. That is why if I download say 100+ photos of a gal. I will then usually get a subscription to her site for one month just to compensate her.

Actually what she actually wrote to me (this model with a website of her own);

"...There are different pictures of me outside in the net. Approved pictures for referrers to my site and stolen ones. I certainly get mad, if somebody copies the site and publishes many pictures - especially without setting a link to my site or referring to other sites to make money with them. There is not much one can do about it so...."

 

[TonyThaTiger30]

I think you were meaning to tell that to me, not Nightfly. I was the one who was saying it is illegal or stealing or whatever.
I am referring to a woman with her own website who said that she doesn't like it when people share her photos without including links or anything. She knows it is reality. But she doesn't like it. And let's be honest. I could download just about every photo of just about every model out there who has a website for free. And I would then have no need to get a subscription to her site. And she loses out. That is why if I download say 100+ photos of a gal. I will then usually get a subscription to her site for one month just to compensate her.

No I originally meant it to Nightfly, As Nightfly said it was stealing too, and I was explaining that you can look at whole sets without paying for them. As far as it was meant to you, now that I go back and read your post, yes I see you calling it theft also. Like I said before, there is nothing anyone here has done that the other person hasn't done or worse. When someone points their finger at someone, does that person doing the pointing realize how many fingers are pointing back at them?

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

Nobody works through their days just for somebody to come along and steal from them. I dont work to buy anything so someone can have it for nothing. If the particular commodity is priced, it is to be bought. Commodities are priced to achieve an objective, and that objective is for consumers to expend a quantity of their finances on that commodity to purchase it. Producers earn their living that way, and pay their employees. The consumption of goods and services and the supply of money builds economies and creates employment. That is why piracy is wrong.

 

[member2686]

Bingo, Cheeky Monkey.

Ask ANY sensible business person, or even business student. "Shrinkage" or theft is unfortunately a fact of life, and businesses price that % into the retail sticker price. Whenever you go to the store and pay $10 for a "gizmo," a certain % of that $10 is going back to the retailer for the things people have stolen from their store. They're not going to sit there and take the hit/loss. They want a positive financial report. So who pays for the thefts? You and me.

It works the same way with P2P file sharing. If there is a demand of 2 million units of a certain new CD I am releasing, but 15% of that demand will be vaporized by punk-ass college kids downloading tracks via P2P file sharing, what do you think I am going to do with the price of my remaining 1,700,000 CDs? I'm going to bump it up 15% (or more) to make up for the thefts...

This is not exquisitely complex economics, and it's not a grey area morally or ethically (or legally) either. Either you pay for it or you steal it. Some people seem to have this feeling of entitlement to things which they cannot afford, but they WANT (not need), and simply because the technology is out there that makes it dead simple for them to steal, they rationalize it and say "well, it's overpriced anyway by those big greedy companies." That's crap, and they know it. But I suppose it helps them to clear their consciences.

Whatever. Stealing is stealing, and someone has to pay for it. anotherguy, you owe me a few hundred bucks at least for the CDs and DVDs I've bought at escalated prices because of your file sharing. hehehe LOL!

Cheers, guys. I think this horse is dead and beaten.