Where do you draw the line on downloading stuff illegally?

[anotherguy]

Something that sprung up when I asked on another thread about how many people have a legal copy of photoshop was where do people draw the line when it comes to downloading stuff from peer to peer programs

I know a lot of people download music illegally and that seems to be accpetable. But what about new films, computer games eg Doom 3, programs eg photoshop, books etc?

Where do you draw the line and say yeah its acceptable to get this free, but not this.....

 

[Brino]

I draw the line at Feature Films and Videogames. I'm willing to spend ten bucks to see a movie and I'm willing to spend 30$-50$ on videogames. I'm not willing to spend 10$-20$ on music.

 

[Aces&Jacks]

I draw the line at Feature Films and Videogames. I'm willing to spend ten bucks to see a movie and I'm willing to spend 30$-50$ on videogames. I'm not willing to spend 10$-20$ on music.

What's your reasoning? I don't understand the distinction between the two. All 3 are created by someone else to entertain others. Why is music different in your eyes from the other two? Because it's not visual?

 

[foxycougar]

I download music all of the time and if I like at least a few of the songs that come from a certain album then I go buy it. If I only like one song off an entire album I'm not going to pay $20 for it.

 

[member2686]

I've done a 180-degree turn on this. I used to snag everything I could get online. I don't do that anymore. Here's the thing: anything you download was CREATED and produced and has gone through God knows how many levels of revision and production and manufacture. That costs lots of money. Of course, as well, the TALENT and originality of the original creator should be recognized.

Those who have never worked or who feel jaded in our societies seem the most insouciant about file sharing. They don't understand or appreciate the value of a hard day's work, or a YEAR'S hard work, creativity, etc. Once you go through a personal crisis and make rent by "the skin of your teeth," you'll know what I mean.

Work for pay is an honorable thing, regardless of your occupation, and file "sharing" is out-and-out THEFT. NO ONE can dispute that. I challenge ANYONE to say that they DESERVE to get copywritten music, movies, games, books, etc. for FREE online. We can debate price/profits margins until the moon turns blue, but the issue is about theft of goods/intellectual property.

Some Italian member here (I forgot his username) once got into this topic with me and he failed miserably to make his argument. "I don't think I should have to pay to appreciate the arts," he said. What a pile a rubbish argument that was!!! He felt "entitled" to have everything free of charge.

I no longer file-share. I work HARD for what I have. I pay for what I have. Sharing a pic with a friend or making a mix CD is one thing (and it's within the law in the USA under the Fair Use doctrine), but opening up your hard drive to everyone online to get songs....that's just not right/legal. And you KNOW it, those of you who do it. Once you start earning a living yourselves, you'll appreciate being able to lock your doors and windows and not have the neighbors coming into your home and taking whatever they want and calling it "sharing."

Cheers. :hatsoff:

 

[anotherguy]

I stopped buying music properly ages ago when napster first came out I think. Now with broadband i can get an album in about an hour if im lucky and my mp3 player has even stopped my need for blank cd's. But when its a band I really like, or a new band, I will buy the CD

I download a lot of films as well, it took me a while to get it sorted properly but now I can be sure the films gonna be dvd quality. The only downside is I havent got a dvd writer so I have to watch them on my pc. But im getting a dvd writer soon. But same goes here as for CDs I do still buy DVDs but only the really good/special ones..

As for programs, yeah I do download some, I wont name names but I like the programs and theres no way i could afford them, but I think programs are proably a bit eaasy to trace sometimes so I dont make a habit of it...

as for game I normally dont dowload them. 2 reasons really - I like buying the games and getting the manuel these days certainly helps on some, and the newer games like HL2 are really sophiscated in piracy issues....


Im not boasting and technically I know its stealing, but my morals are still undecided if its right or wrong...

 

[anotherguy]

Those who have never worked or who feel jaded in our societies seem the most insouciant about file sharing. They don't understand or appreciate the value of a hard day's work, or a YEAR'S hard work, creativity, etc. Once you go through a personal crisis and make rent by "the skin of your teeth," you'll know what I mean.

Work for pay is an honorable thing, regardless of your occupation, and file "sharing" is out-and-out THEFT. NO ONE can dispute that. I challenge ANYONE to say that they DESERVE to get copywritten music, movies, games, books, etc. for FREE online. We can debate price/profits margins until the moon turns blue, but the issue is about theft of goods/intellectual property.

:

Good post

I think your being a bit heavy handed on the file sharres saying they dont understand a hard days work and all though. Ive scraped by so many times on rent and haveing to work my ass off to afford food.

I cant afford to go out a lot (once every 2 months ish...) downloading films effectivly allows me to go to the cinema and what money I do save i can use for other things like buy a unni text book.

I know Im not gonna convince you, but I dont think comparing it to people breaking into your house is the same, its a compleatly differnt league.

Im not a bad person, ive got no crimnal record, never been in trouble with the police, never had a fight, never got expelled. Im just a poor student trying to get by increasing his standard of living by downloading stuff from the internet...

 

[Goblin]

I don't download anything... but thats because my line is drawn right where the fine line is drawn.

 

[Dinalt]

:wave2: I'm still sitting on the fence over this one - I don't use P2P because I don't agree with sharing your hard drive with the world. But I can appreciate why people do.
It's a difficult moral question though, as many of us have probably broken copyright laws before (some examples below):

1) Lending a DVD or Video to a friend. (Most films have a disclaimer that you shouldn't lend the film to anyone).
2) Selling a DVD or Video (ones you already own). Again in breach of the terms & conditions of the copyright agreement.
3) Selling a book or buying a second hand book. (Check the terms in the flyleaf).
4) Taping or otherwise copying music off the radio.
5) Looking for full picture sets (or requesting them on the board), or asking for links to big movies.
6) Making a compilation CD or ripping your music to an MP3 player (Illegal copying in much of the world - think the US is slightly different, with the fair use policies).
7) Downloading music off a P2P to replace your original vinyl or tape collection. (Probably a grey area, as you already own the tracks - I don't know, but would make an interesting case).

List could go on forever, but most people have probably done at least one of the above. (Kind of blurs the issue).

As for software / games & music - I'm against illegal sharing, but can understand why some people do it:

1) Most software is vastly overpriced. Photoshop's a great piece of software, but out of the reach of most people. Maybe there should be 2 licenses - 1 for amateur use (ie CHEAP), and 1 for professional use (expensive, but can sell your work etc.) That's why I use Paint Shop Pro, it's not as powerful but it's a lot more affordable.
Microsoft Office is another example. I'm still running Office '97 (a legal licensed copy), as I'm not paying over £300 for the new version. Again, maybe there should be 2 licenses - 1 for home and one for business use.
(I know there's a student version available, but I don't qualify for it).

2) How much do you really get out of a game ? I've purchased Doom 3 recently, and finished it in 8 hours. Whilst I can appreciate the development that's gone into it, it's now gathering dust on a shelf.
It's fine to say there are demos available, but these don't let you know how much gameplay you're buying.

3) As other posts have mentioned, a lot of music albums don't justify the purchase price. The last album I purchased had 2 tracks that I liked - the rest were rubbish.

4) Although there are legal music download sites, they're overpriced in my opinion. I was comparing the cost of a download album with the retail boxed version - the boxed version was cheaper. (Where's the logic there ?).
And older songs should be a lot cheaper to download, but it's usually cheaper to buy a retail boxed version as they've been reduced.

So I think the software/film & music industry needs to look at its pricing before penalising people. It's ironic that the past financial year marked another huge growth in DVD sales - despite file sharing.

And the industry seems to penalise legitimate consumers as well, as examples below:

1) Making sure your CD won't play on your PC. (Why not, you've paid good money for an album).
2) Making you wait an obscene length of time while the software installer verifies your copy. (Happened to me with Half Life 2 which I purchased - but I'll bet pirate copies install with no problems).

So, yes - file sharing's wrong - but I guess it's human nature to want something for nothing. Just my :2 cents: :thumbsup:

 

[member2686]

Have you ever read "Les Miserables," anotherguy? Stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family and increase their "quality of life" is still stealing. In THIS case, you're stealing just for your own amusement because you don't have enough money to pay for your WANTS (not needs). That's just simply WRONG, and you know it. Get this "it's a huge company, they won't notice it" thought pattern out of your head.

As a proximate result of file sharing, CD prices and DVD and book prices will remain ridiculously elevated. Those of us who DO pay for things have to pay for what YOU'RE stealing online.

You're right. You won't convince me that theft is justified or justifiable - ever. It's wrong, and it's criminal. And I'm paying for your theft.

I know I sound pious and self-righteous about this issue. But dammit, theft is theft is theft.

 

[TonyThaTiger30]

I am not going to call anyone out, but take porn for instance, how many have looked at full sets of a star without joining their website? Basically the same thing as any of the other stuff. I don't think anyone here has done anymore than the other fellow as far as, well as some people call it "stealing"!!!!! :2 cents:

 

[member11579]

I personally do not download anything. I am quite funny about actually liking the entire product if I want something - I like to have the packaging and the manuals for games, I like the inserts in CDs etc etc.

I can see however why people do it. Yes, no matter of arguing about it will ever make it legal, but it doesnt mean they are condemned to hell.

The price of CDs and games is astronomically high considering what they are most of the time, but some do justify the tag.

Examples...

In videogames, you will get a shit new version of FIFA every year, with a few flashy gimmicks added on to the old game, and get charged $50 / £40. Complete rip-off, no wonder people would d/l it. On the other hand, you get MGS3, in development for years, is the nearest to an interactive movie you can get, has had some serious work put in to it. People will pay for that.

 

[anotherguy]

I respect your opinion nightfly and im glad your mature enough to argue a point without throwing the neg rep around, but I do think your being heavy handed.

I admit that its wrong, but im not about to stop anytime soon, nor do I particulary feel guilty over it. I fail to see the logistics behind paying an actor upwards of £25 million ($50million) for a film then moan because profits are down becuase people are refusing to pay £20 for a dvd.

As for music you have to admit that the record companies had this coming, but if you step back and look at a bigger picture the illegall fire sharing has forced them to change their method of business offering legal peer to peer networks such as itunes which has benifited consumers willing to pay for music, while still giveing them around a 20% profit margin.

I dont want this thread to get particulary heated or for people to fall out or anything, but a nice debate would be cool....

 

[member11579]

I was going to make my post longer, but got tired! Anotherguy however has maded one point I was going to - we have been being ripped off by the big companies for too long. I am not saying the artists deserve it, but its the middle men, the people who are purely in it for the money, that have stitched the industry up, and thank fuck FINALLY they are realising it and doing something about it, even if it was only to save their own skins from piracy as opposed to doing something decent for us lot!

 

[Dinalt]

I was going to make my post longer, but got tired! Anotherguy however has maded one point I was going to - we have been being ripped off by the big companies for too long. I am not saying the artists deserve it, but its the middle men, the people who are purely in it for the money, that have stitched the industry up, and thank fuck FINALLY they are realising it and doing something about it, even if it was only to save their own skins from piracy as opposed to doing something decent for us lot!

:thumbsup: Same point I made earlier, and just as valid. We're getting conned for software & DVD's and at least P2P's been a wakeup call for the industry. I don't agree with copyright theft, but it's the consumer getting the shaft. At the end of the day they're only interested in making as much money as possible.

I'll quote software packages as an example:

Even with different taxes etc., I know I can get some computer design packages shipped from the US for half the price they are in England. It's about time companies stopped conning people, and gave everyone the same value for money.
Wtf's that about ?? The cost of a CD or DVD's the same, so these companies are just giving the finger to those of us who buy their product.

Another good idea would be to have simultaneous release dates for films - I know films premier in the US and are sometimes out on DVD BEFORE their cinema release in England.
I'm not condoning it, but of course real film fans are going to download the film if it's available before a general cinema release.
And of course, some DVD's have better US packages than the English releases - all the time this is going on, piracy & file sharing will grow and flourish.

So instead of these companies bitching & whining about how they've only made xx amount of billions of dollars, how about giving the consumer a fair deal ?

I don't use pirate software, but I find it very hard to shed a tear if Bill Gates loses a few licenses to piracy (give us software at a reasonable price).
The only people I feel sorry for are those small developers, who really do rely on the money.

Sorry to post another rant (I'm not spamming - honest) - but it's a subject I feel strongly on. If these companies treated their consumers with respect, maybe we'd have more respect for both them and the copyright laws.

Finally, why the f**k do we need to keep putting the original cd's in to play games ? Pirate copies don't need them, so again we're getting shafted!!
I know you can download patches & fixes that modify the coding, but this is also illegal - a real pain when you've got loads of games on your system.

Anyway, rant over - and I've probably gone off topic, but I feel it's related to the whole P2P thing.

Btw - great idea for a thread, it's a topic that always prompts debate. :thumbsup:

 

[member2686]

Hey, it's cool, anotherguy. I'm not gonna toss out neg rep because we have differing opinions. If you were being a prick about it, I might, but we're having a nice, cerebral, civil discussion. I enjoy that sort of thing.

While I STILL disagree with you on most or all points, I appreciate the candor of your posts and the tenor of those posts.

It's cool to be able to engage in discussions about current, hot topics, or controversial ones, without having some fool come in and post shemale pics etc. to try to make his point. LMAO

I'll give you good rep again when I can, anotherguy. Nice post, man. :hatsoff: :nanner:

 

[member11579]

I have seen topics like this on GameFAQs where I hang out on boards for some big release games once in a while. On there the average age is like 13.... you should see how fast this shit deteriorates there! Thank God it is going ok here!

 

[Dinalt]

I have seen topics like this on GameFAQs where I hang out on boards for some big release games once in a while. On there the average age is like 13.... you should see how fast this shit deteriorates there! Thank God it is going ok here!

:rofl2: Thank god they haven't found Freeones yet! Most of the games sites are full of kids who can barely put a sentence together.

 

[member11579]

0r th3y us3 teh 1337 sp33k.

Little freaks.

 

[anotherguy]

arrggh - I just typed out a huge post but pressed backspace to delete something and the browser went back a page and I lost it all

Im not gonna type it out again but the basic jist was 'yeah I like the way this threads going with people discussing what they believe in without people holding it against them....'


and its all in readable English no less.... :nanner: