War, what is it good for?

[Supafly]

Dankeschön!

But, you know, us Germans have managed, what Gazanians can't seem to do - reunite with our fellow Germans, in case of the Gazanians, they best pack up and get new identities as workers in Saudi-Arabia. Forget that crazy idea about hanging on to a concept that ended in 1949

 

[tvstrip]

@Supafly

Just curious, does this equivalency makes sense to you:
Nazis = hamas
Non-Nazi German Citizens = Palestinian Civilians
Allies = idf

Feel free to make any substitutions you feel are appropriate.

 

[Supafly]

I don't think that these substitutes into an old equation works or helps

 

[tvstrip]

I don't think that these substitutes into an old equation works or helps

Why not? I'm genuinely curious to see why you don't feel the equivalency isn't adequate, and IYO what would be a more accurate one.

 

[Supafly]

You'll have to live with that curiosity.

 

[tvstrip]

You'll have to live with that curiosity.

That says more about your position than any other response. Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/more-million-palestinians-gaza-now-120014114.html

Well this article explains why no one wants the Palestinians. Personally I think the should head towards Iran.

 

[tvstrip]

@Mr. Daystar and others suggesting that the Palestinians just move somewhere else, I think this is an interesting response:
(And it's only 2 minutes)

It also explains why pushing the Palestinians around won't work.

 

[Steve-FreeOnes]

Reading the last 10 pages of this topic is a stark reminder to myself as to why I stopped reading this section of the board altogether. Jesus christ.

Still, at least you're all being civil!

 

[Mr. Daystar]

Ok, so I don't know if you watched the video I posted, but I didn't know about a lot of what was said in it. Having watched it, it makes sense to me that, if they are to have a state, it would be better off being close to the type of regime they want for their own. Where else would the land come from? Israel isn't going to carve up their little slice. Egypt, and Jorden want nothing to do with them, and I doubt they would give up the land for a state. I also have serious doubts that giving Palestine a state, would stop them from trying to kill Jews, or destroy Israel. Iran has a shit ton of room, and they aren't right next to Israel, and they want them dead, and have threatened to do so. The fact is strip, this is going to go on forever, and no one will win.

 

[tvstrip]

Ok, so I don't know if you watched the video I posted, but I didn't know about a lot of what was said in it. Having watched it, it makes sense to me that, if they are to have a state, it would be better off being close to the type of regime they want for their own. Where else would the land come from? Israel isn't going to carve up their little slice. Egypt, and Jorden want nothing to do with them, and I doubt they would give up the land for a state. I also have serious doubts that giving Palestine a state, would stop them from trying to kill Jews, or destroy Israel. Iran has a shit ton of room, and they aren't right next to Israel, and they want them dead, and have threatened to do so. The fact is strip, this is going to go on forever, and no one will win.

One takeaway from our videos is that moving the Palestinians or Israelis out of the area and into any other country is not going to work. Period. Both are not going anywhere, and merging them into 1 country is not going to work for many obvious reasons.
So a 2-state solution is the only solution (apart from ethnic cleansing).

Let me throw this out there: In the context of current events, it benefits Israel to just follow the initial UN plan and agree to Palestinian statehood along the border drawn up at the time. If they become some militant independent country (emphasis on country) and start a conflict, at that point Israel can declare a formal war pursuant to international law. The international community (including the UN) might even side with Israel at that point, because it would be an independent country now making it's own decisions, and were also given the opportunity to start up as a new country.

But you need to give them that chance before you can make the conclusion that a Palestinian state would automatically start a war with Israel.
And before we even get to that point, they need a ceasefire. Let's start there.

 

[tvstrip]

Ok, so I don't know if you watched the video I posted,

If it's the video with Mosab Yousef, I can't be bothered to watch. He's treated like royalty by the idf because he's propaganda gold. If "normal" Palestinians got the same red carpet treatment that he gets, I'm sure their views would be much different too.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

If it's the video with Mosab Yousef, I can't be bothered to watch. He's treated like royalty by the idf because he's propaganda gold. If "normal" Palestinians got the same red carpet treatment that he gets, I'm sure their views would be much different too.

No, it's a Fox news article. It just explains why no one wants them, but obviously it's slanted. they all are.

I don't think Palestine will start war, I don't think they are willing to fight a war under the rules set forth. I don't think they're man enough to do that. I think they will commit acts of terrorism, and sponsor it where ever, and whenever they can, including on American soil, and American interests overseas. I think they will continue to act as they have in the past. They are doing all of this in the name of allah, and he apparently thinks it's acceptable to use babies and women as shields, so they feel justified, and proud of their cowardly behavior.

 

[gmase]

Gaza has become a moonscape
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/23/gaza-battles-unihabitable-israel-00128573

This provides a brief overview of 'The Day After' in Gaza. The utter destruction of infrastructure is beyond belief. We muse about certain US cities being like war zones, but the worst parts of Baltimore, Chicago, Detroit, et al. are nothing like this. A $5 billion reconstruction effort to rebuild damage from the 2014 war is not complete. The magnitude of this is almost unimaginable.

I have a prediction I would like to put out there.

I would wager that the United States is going to buy, for an outrageous sum, a chunk of land from a country over there, don't know which one, but enough to create a state for the Palestinian people. But it won't be good enough, because it doesn't include a section of, or isn't adjacent to, Jerusalem. The U.S. will strike a deal that not only involves cash, but concessions. These will include military equipment, and continuing financial support. It will eventually come back to bite us in the ass.

Just a shot in the dark. Any other thoughts akin to this?

I don't believe the US will be buying up any land, but a 21st Century Marshall Plan may be in order. The area will need security and a long-term commitment to peace. Israel and Egypt have had peaceful relations for nearly 45 years, so it is theoretically possible. A longshot for certain.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

Gaza has become a moonscape
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/23/gaza-battles-unihabitable-israel-00128573

This provides a brief overview of 'The Day After' in Gaza. The utter destruction of infrastructure is beyond belief. We muse about certain US cities being like war zones, but the worst parts of Baltimore, Chicago, Detroit, et al. are nothing like this. A $5 billion reconstruction effort to rebuild damage from the 2014 war is not complete. The magnitude of this is almost unimaginable.


I don't believe the US will be buying up any land, but a 21st Century Marshall Plan may be in order. The area will need security and a long-term commitment to peace. Israel and Egypt have had peaceful relations for nearly 45 years, so it is theoretically possible. A longshot for certain.

I guess "buying" wasn't the best way to say it. Maybe, trade this, for that kind of thing. Unless you considered that in your comment, in which case, I'm stopped in my tracks, because I have no other ideas. I just don't see any country around them, that will give them a slice of their pie, except MAYBE Iran, and that's only so they can use them in their jihadist crusades against the non believers. I also can't see them wanting to be moved from the "holy land". Everyone is concerned with being close to Jerusalem, and not everyone can. They also seem to forget it's the holy land for just about EVERY religion there is. Personally, I think we should just move the Jews to Baja California, after all, much like Israel, it's a useless chunk of desert, next to salt water, with zero oil.

 

[gmase]

I guess "buying" wasn't the best way to say it. Maybe, trade this, for that kind of thing. Unless you considered that in your comment, in which case, I'm stopped in my tracks, because I have no other ideas. I just don't see any country around them, that will give them a slice of their pie, except MAYBE Iran, and that's only so they can use them in their jihadist crusades against the non believers. I also can't see them wanting to be moved from the "holy land". Everyone is concerned with being close to Jerusalem, and not everyone can. They also seem to forget it's the holy land for just about EVERY religion there is. Personally, I think we should just move the Jews to Baja California, after all, much like Israel, it's a useless chunk of desert, next to salt water, with zero oil.

This is a Kobayashi Maru.

The reality is that Israel will likely occupy the Gaza Strip for the foreseeable future. I revert back to 'WTF did Hamas think would happen?'

 

[tvstrip]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-hamas-start-first-truce-gaza-war-2023-11-24/

Ceasefire and hostage swap is off to a good start.

It's only a four-day ceasefire, so it will be telling for both sides what happens if both sides completely abide by the agreement.

If both sides fulfill the terms within the 4 days, and then on the 5th day one side says: "Ok, back to business" and starts the fighting, then that will be quite telling.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

This is a Kobayashi Maru.

The reality is that Israel will likely occupy the Gaza Strip for the foreseeable future. I revert back to 'WTF did Hamas think would happen?'

Honestly, I don't think they did think. I personally believe they did, what the country (Iran), that sponsored this attack told them to do. I don't really believe that had any long range goal, or solution at all going into this. I think because it was the anniversary of a previous attack, it was chosen, and they got all fired up, under the influence of Iranian religious leaders. I think Iran is using Palestine, to start some major shit over there, and destabilize the whole region. To hamas, and radical iranian leaders, and clerics, ect., so they can try and start pushing more states and groups into the islam THEY want.

I would bet the farm, the original script NEVER called for Kirk to ever win, but Shatners ego just HAD to get it changed. Which is typical of his personality, but for fucks sakes, even John Wayne died in 3 of his movies. I've never been a Star Trek fan, but Shatner did do a hell of a job, as "Denny Crane".

Ceasefire and hostage swap is off to a good start.

It's only a four-day ceasefire, so it will be telling for both sides what happens if both sides completely abide by the agreement.

If both sides fulfill the terms within the 4 days, and then on the 5th day one side says: "Ok, back to business" and starts the fighting, then that will be quite telling.

Here's where I see the monkey wrench in all of this. A U.S. warship has already shot down to drones headed for Israel, coming from yeman. Now I know hamas didn't launch it, but is there intelligence that states it was SOLELY the decision of that terrorist group, or where they in communication with hamas, and providing target acquisition? There is more than just hamas involved in this cluster fuck. Groups that clearly do not want a peace that includes Israel, or even the other sect of islam. I believe Iran and Palestinians are sunni, which I think is the version that believes women are dirt, all rules are made by religion, and leaves no room to let other religions live. That's why I think they would be better off with a little chunk of Iran, as they are like minded. They also, unfortunately would be far more happy if Israel were to be eradicated, and all Jews and Christians slaughtered..

 

[tvstrip]

I'm actually hopeful that the ceasefire will hold.
hamas knows that a full land war could result in full occupation and their demise. They know they can't win a sustained war.
israel senses the world turning against them, with the US teetering on that brink. They'd love a way out too.

It's not necessarily peace, but I'd say both sides are going to be looking for more that 4 days of reprieve.

 

[Supafly]

I think you assume some views that Hamas will share with you... I am afraid that they will much rather double down and make next attacks even worse