US Soldier Waterboards 4-Year-Old Daughter For Not Knowing Alphabet

Philbert

Banned
it is not an unexpected action from a soldier; whatever nationalty the soldier is :tongue:

Are you fucking kidding me? Really?

You know that he is 100% serious...it makes me wonder how some people can wake up every day, look into a mirror, realize who they actually are, and not end it all right then.
Some manage to live with the knowledge a long time, more's the shame...

I think his parents didn't believe in spanking a child...and this is the result.:nono:
 
Jane, I think you've missed a key talking point of the pro-torture guys here. There was no common "this/it" to compare between using X on terrorists vs. using X on kids. We can't compare what this man did to his daughter unless he followed the CIA guidebook on how to conduct such an act - to the letter!

Sorry, no, the only clueless tool here who has consistently fired rhetorical blanks and missed every single point is you. First, you believe that waterboarding of terrorists constitutes torture. That's fact number one that you're completely out to lunch. Second, you believe that this happened because the guy is ex-military, which is fact number two that you're on The Great Lunatic Crusade. And number three, you believe that using torture (or even non-torture) on a scumbag who has important info that could save lives somehow violates some great, noble rule of civilized sociey, and that is fact three that your head is firmly up your ass on this.

Thankfully, while bleeding hearts like you would prefer to invite murderous terrorist assholes to sit and play Uno over a tall mocha and really delve into your differences and come up with a compromising solution, we actually have a military led by intelligent people who actually grew spines to deal with the reality of terrorism. So go ahead, keep splashing your rhetorical vomit all over the place, regale us with your moronic convictions that we must treat evil people with respect and care, nauseate us all with your long sermons bashing our military and shitting on our country. No matter. Because, in the end, we'll all rest easy knowing that your babbling pablum is kept safely tucked away in message board land, where you can't actually screw up the world with your idiotic nonsense.
 
So, allow me to sum up your argument here, whoremaker:

Straw man:
"would prefer to invite murderous terrorist assholes to sit and play Uno over a tall mocha"

Ad hominem:

clueless tool
out to lunch
The Great Lunatic Crusade
your head is firmly up your ass
bleeding hearts
people who actually grew spines (implying that I, nor anyone who agrees with me, lacks a spine)
moronic
idiotic

Substantive!

One thing you did get right is that I think that torture (which waterboarding is) "violates some great, noble rule of civilized sociey."

Even Reagan got that right:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/01/shifts/
 
Well its obviously going to be mentioned because like chef said it brings readers in but even if he was 'trained' in 'waterboarding' it still has nothing to do with him being a soldier, if you google 'waterboarding' you get an in depth step by step on what it is and how to execute it so any regular ol person could use the method just as easily as a soldier, and rest assured had it been a civilian who used the 'waterboarding' method headlines would not only read MAN (instead of his profession) but also 'dunks daughters head in water' (instead of waterboarding)

Here's the thing HSS, I wouldn't have to google it..I was trained on the methods and procedures and underwent the treatment.

No one's arguing he articulated the letter of the procedure. My point is really drawing distinctions on whether or not his status as a soldier should be mentioned...was it black letter water boarding or not really is really as useful as swabbing a condemned man's arm before inserting the needle.

Who believes based on this that our soldiers are inclined to water torture their children because they are soldiers? Or that the story itself besmirches the reputation of serving men and women?? No reasonable person does IMO.

Nor has any reasonable person suggested it...It's just a story and the fine semantics really don't go anywhere.
 
So, allow me to sum up your argument here, whoremaker:

Straw man:
"would prefer to invite murderous terrorist assholes to sit and play Uno over a tall mocha"

Ad hominem:

clueless tool
out to lunch
The Great Lunatic Crusade
your head is firmly up your ass
bleeding hearts
people who actually grew spines (implying that I, nor anyone who agrees with me, lacks a spine)
moronic
idiotic

Substantive!

One thing you did get right is that I think that torture (which waterboarding is) "violates some great, noble rule of civilized sociey."

Even Reagan got that right:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/01/shifts/

Nice try, but sadly, the only straws in this thread are the one's you keep grasping for. You may have convinced yourself that your incoherent ramblings hold some truth, but I assure you, you are a zombie army of one. Keep up the effort, though! Another pudding brained anti-America/anti-military liberal troll might wander in and actually dig your senseless garbage.
 
I am all for getting info out of terrorists by torture. :2 cents:

That doesn't guarantee the info is credible. People will say anything under torture. It's an entirely unreliable method of getting at the truth.

If torture was effective as a way of securing reliable evidence (by which I mean the truth, not merely a confession or denunciation), surely we should be using it in normal criminal investigations.
 
That doesn't guarantee the info is credible. People will say anything under torture. It's an entirely unreliable method of getting at the truth.

If torture was effective as a way of securing reliable evidence (by which I mean the truth, not merely a confession or denunciation), surely we should be using it in normal criminal investigations.

Where do you people come up with this stuff? Time and time again bad guys have given up loads of good intel. This whole "Torture doesn't work" crap argument is ridiculous.
 
Where do you people come up with this stuff? Time and time again bad guys have given up loads of good intel. This whole "Torture doesn't work" crap argument is ridiculous.

Says who? Lying ass Cheney?

The clown tried to legalize it for one reason...to try and get HVDs to say Saddam had some connection to AQ or 9/11.

The reality is this, if you don't know what the guy knows all you can ever do is try and get them to cop to something you want them to cop to. Like confessing to some affiliation to Iraq.

Do you honestly think American soldiers are saying what they believe when they denounce the US while they are held captive or are they simply saying what their captors have them say under threat to life and limb????

What makes you think it works any differently the other way???

The guy who tried to take down the Detroit bound plan is talking like a parrot now...not because we hung him up by his ankles but because we brought in some of his family members.
 
Says who? Lying ass Cheney?

The clown tried to legalize it for one reason...to try and get HVDs to say Saddam had some connection to AQ or 9/11.

The reality is this, if you don't know what the guy knows all you can ever do is try and get them to cop to something you want them to cop to. Like confessing to some affiliation to Iraq.

Do you honestly think American soldiers are saying what they believe when they denounce the US while they are held captive or are they simply saying what their captors have them say under threat to life and limb????

What makes you think it works any differently the other way???

The guy who tried to take down the Detroit bound plan is talking like a parrot now...not because we hung him up by his ankles but because we brought in some of his family members.

Nice try, but getting info out of a terrorist is quite different than murderers giving a guy a script to read and putting a gun to his head. Not even comparable. Find a better argument, or at least a logical one.
 

Jane Burgess

Official Checked Star Member
:rolleyes: Oh geez... spare me. [Pssst.... I had my sarcasm cranked up to 11 on that post - notice my hyperbolic language and all-caps declarations] Thank you for making my point for me. Of course PTSD is real, and of course it can adversely effect one's behavior once they're stateside again...

Be warned though, Jane. There's a particular strain of conservative who likes to brush off talk of PTSD and the like as just "psychobabble" and warm fuzzy gobbledygook.

You'll get no fight from me about PTSD. Actually, I'm thinking that it's probably integral to his condition, and part of the reason I feel pity for this guy, at least as much as I do loathing.




Sorry, I just get defensive when people talk about PTSD. I have PTSD and panic attacks. Anyone who suffers from it knows the hell it causes.

Anyone that brushes off PTSD or any other mental disorder as "psychobabble" is a fool.

I have no clue if this guy has it. It is possible, but who knows. Some people are just cruel.
 
When you have as many people in the military as we have, and the demand for bodies is greater than the need for "quality" people, guys like this are going to be in there. This is not an indictment on the military, just an observation. There were marines at Camp Lejeune who were selling Ecstacy, others have been arrested for killing a fellow Marine because she was pregnant. I know of at least one case where a Marine married a girl, then as soon as the pay increased and he got some allowances afforded married soldiers, he treated her like shit and rarely came home.

There are tons of people with a bad agenda, and there are many in the military. We have a fucked up society, the military is a microcosm of it.

Like my granny once said "The army is only for those with no where else to go" the army is a haven for all sorts. Good and bad. Particularly those who like to bully people. Imagine the problems we don't hear about that happen in the army. Things that for some reason or another get covered up.
 

Facetious

Moderated
Thanks.

Quite a different slant to that version, though. It just says the father dunked the girls head into the sink.

As horrible as that is...it's not the same as waterboarding.

:cool:

Sheesh ! For cussing, I used to get my mouth washed out with a bar of soap and then get my head dunked. :D .... 'deserved it too. :1orglaugh

To this very day, I can still taste that Irish Spring on the starboard side of may palate.... or was it Ivory ? :dunno: :confused: :p
 

Facetious

Moderated
The guy who tried to take down the Detroit bound plan is talking like a parrot now...not because we hung him up by his ankles but because we brought in some of his family members.

Why do you suppose he's talking when he is a lawya-ed up and doesn't have to?
 
Nice try, but getting info out of a terrorist is quite different than murderers giving a guy a script to read and putting a gun to his head. Not even comparable. Find a better argument, or at least a logical one.

Presumably you're speaking from some wealth of experience? Or are you just talking about what you think or have seen in movies?

Didn't have to look far for a "logical" argument as you just made it in supporting what I just told you. People will say what you want them to say under threat to life or limb. You ultimately end up wasting your time and efforts.

Why do you suppose he's talking when he is a lawya-ed up and doesn't have to?

I just told you why I suppose he is. And he didn't have to be shipped off somewhere in order to have it happen.
 
Didn't have to look far for a "logical" argument as you just made it in supporting what I just told you.

Thanks. Now that I am aware of your dismal lack of reading and comprehension skills, I won't bother to reply to you, as you'll read from it whatever the voices in your head tell you to. Buh-bye.
 
Nice try, but getting info out of a terrorist is quite different than murderers giving a guy a script to read and putting a gun to his head. Not even comparable. Find a better argument, or at least a logical one.

Thanks. Now that I am aware of your dismal lack of reading and comprehension skills, I won't bother to reply to you, as you'll read from it whatever the voices in your head tell you to. Buh-bye.

Well, I'm not sure what you thought you were trying to say there but what you said translates simply to a person doing what you want them to do irrespective of what the truth is or what they believe when life or limb is threated.

Sorry....you can try to run away from what your words mean all you want but it ain't gonna work. Also, what terrorist have you gotten information out of to even know what the difference is? Have you been trained in interrogation techniques or evasion and resistance techniques?
 
Here's an interesting story that has some relevance to the issue of this thread:

http://salon.com/news/opinion/joe_conason/2010/02/09/torturedkids/index.html

Big excerpt:
The arrest of an Army sergeant (and Iraq veteran) who allegedly waterboarded his 4-year-old daughter for failing to recite the alphabet is sickening. Yet it may be the kind of news we must come to expect if, as a society, the United States determines that torture is an acceptable method of securing information and inducing obedience. Physical abuse of children is nothing new, of course, in certain right-wing quarters, as Max Blumenthal reminded us by exposing the pedagogical sadism of Focus on the Family in Republican Gomorrah.

For a sergeant who tortures his child, however, the relevant model probably comes from somewhere high in the chain of command. At the center of today’s propaganda promoting the torture state are former Vice President Dick Cheney, his family and many of his friends, working through an organization called Keeping America Safe that is run by his daughter Liz Cheney. The financier behind that outfit is one Melvin Sembler, a curious character whose résumé indicates that he is all too familiar with the "enhanced interrogation" of children.

Sembler is best known as a Florida shopping center magnate and Republican fundraiser whose success in amassing funds for the Bush family won him two ambassadorial appointments. Such patronage is a sordid aspect of national politics, but seems trivial when compared with the truly dark side of Sembler’s biography. Long before he achieved prominence in national politics, he was the driving force in the "boot camp" movement that popularized the use of psychological and physical abuse of "troubled" children and teenagers.


His own creation was a federally funded outfit known as Straight, Inc., which eventually fell apart amid multiple lawsuits and accusations of torture by teenagers abused in its secretive facilities.

The best reporting on Straight’s frightening history in recent years has appeared in Reason, the libertarian magazine, under the byline of Maia Szalavitz. Some of the techniques that eventually brought Sembler’s organization to the attention of law enforcement authorities will be eerily familiar to anyone who remembers what happened at Abu Ghraib: humiliating punishments, broken bones, starvation, sleep deprivation, stress positions, verbal assaults, eight-hour sessions of questioning, and so on.

According to Szalavitz, "Straight’s national clinical director ... admitted to authorities in 1982 that he had kept teenagers awake for 72-hour periods, put them on peanut butter-only diets, and forced them to crawl through each other’s legs to be hit in a 'spanking machine' ... Straight ultimately paid out millions of dollars in dozens of lawsuits related to abuse and even kidnapping and false imprisonment of adults."

Eventually Straight crumbled amid those multimillion-dollar settlements, newspaper exposés and government probes, thanks to the activism of Richard Bradbury, a young man whose experience resembles the stories of innocent Iraqis who were caught up in the torture machine over there.

Again according to Szalavitz, Bradbury "was forcibly enrolled in the program in 1983, when he was 17. His sister had had a drug problem, and Straight demanded that he be screened for one as well. After an eight-hour interrogation in a tiny room, Bradbury, who was not an addict, was nonetheless held. He later described beatings and continuous verbal assaults, which for him centered on sexual abuse he’d suffered as a young boy. Staffers and other participants called him a 'faggot,' told him he'd led his abusers on, and forced him to admit 'his part' in the abuse."
 
Here's an interesting story that has some relevance to the issue of this thread:

http://salon.com/news/opinion/joe_conason/2010/02/09/torturedkids/index.html

Big excerpt:
The arrest of an Army sergeant (and Iraq veteran) who allegedly waterboarded his 4-year-old daughter for failing to recite the alphabet is sickening. Yet it may be the kind of news we must come to expect if, as a society, the United States determines that torture is an acceptable method of securing information and inducing obedience. Physical abuse of children is nothing new, of course, in certain right-wing quarters, as Max Blumenthal reminded us by exposing the pedagogical sadism of Focus on the Family in Republican Gomorrah.

For a sergeant who tortures his child, however, the relevant model probably comes from somewhere high in the chain of command. At the center of today’s propaganda promoting the torture state are former Vice President Dick Cheney, his family and many of his friends, working through an organization called Keeping America Safe that is run by his daughter Liz Cheney. The financier behind that outfit is one Melvin Sembler, a curious character whose résumé indicates that he is all too familiar with the "enhanced interrogation" of children.

Sembler is best known as a Florida shopping center magnate and Republican fundraiser whose success in amassing funds for the Bush family won him two ambassadorial appointments. Such patronage is a sordid aspect of national politics, but seems trivial when compared with the truly dark side of Sembler’s biography. Long before he achieved prominence in national politics, he was the driving force in the "boot camp" movement that popularized the use of psychological and physical abuse of "troubled" children and teenagers.


His own creation was a federally funded outfit known as Straight, Inc., which eventually fell apart amid multiple lawsuits and accusations of torture by teenagers abused in its secretive facilities.

The best reporting on Straight’s frightening history in recent years has appeared in Reason, the libertarian magazine, under the byline of Maia Szalavitz. Some of the techniques that eventually brought Sembler’s organization to the attention of law enforcement authorities will be eerily familiar to anyone who remembers what happened at Abu Ghraib: humiliating punishments, broken bones, starvation, sleep deprivation, stress positions, verbal assaults, eight-hour sessions of questioning, and so on.

According to Szalavitz, "Straight’s national clinical director ... admitted to authorities in 1982 that he had kept teenagers awake for 72-hour periods, put them on peanut butter-only diets, and forced them to crawl through each other’s legs to be hit in a 'spanking machine' ... Straight ultimately paid out millions of dollars in dozens of lawsuits related to abuse and even kidnapping and false imprisonment of adults."

Eventually Straight crumbled amid those multimillion-dollar settlements, newspaper exposés and government probes, thanks to the activism of Richard Bradbury, a young man whose experience resembles the stories of innocent Iraqis who were caught up in the torture machine over there.

Again according to Szalavitz, Bradbury "was forcibly enrolled in the program in 1983, when he was 17. His sister had had a drug problem, and Straight demanded that he be screened for one as well. After an eight-hour interrogation in a tiny room, Bradbury, who was not an addict, was nonetheless held. He later described beatings and continuous verbal assaults, which for him centered on sexual abuse he’d suffered as a young boy. Staffers and other participants called him a 'faggot,' told him he'd led his abusers on, and forced him to admit 'his part' in the abuse."

C'mon FK. This is opinion and it is totally out of line to suspect this guys whacked out behavior lends credibly back to his service. Now what I mean by that is separate from some experience which may have caused him to snap there is nothing anyone credibly did in his chain of command that would cause a sane person to do this.
 
Top