The Blackest Day of the World History.

Legzman · Dec 8, 2006

It's a sad sad day in the metal world! Darrell will be sorely missed.

georges · Dec 8, 2006

********** said:
Well I always thought that Pearl Harbour didn't make any sense at all. Why would the Japanese be so stupid to take on America. What did they have to gain by attacking Pearl Harbour? It was suicide. What was their objective? I always question everything, and that is very questionable. It happened all the way out there in Hawaii. I believe the Nazis burned down their own Reichstag to get the people on their side and seize power and I believe an attack on the U.S. was the only way the US could justify attacking Japan and getting embroiled in WWII. So I am very skeptical about it all, and none of you can say "you're insane" because although I may be - you can't prove I'm wrong. You weren't there, none of us were. And even if you were there, how do you know who was flying those planes.

To me... the nation that dropped atomic bombs on citizens is capable of doing anything. I do not trust them one single inch. The government, that is.

The Nazis burned down their own Reichstag and I believe that since then the Americans have adopted similar methods, maybe... Pearl Harbour. JFK. RFK. MLK. Impeaching Nixon. Trying to impeach Clinton. And perhaps 911. Burn down your own Reichstags, kill your own leaders, create the future. Control the future. I believe this with all of my heart. And you wonder why I despise the American government so much. Tell me I'm crazy. They all do.

But doesn't it make you think? What if?

Sorry to burst your bubble but Mitsubishi a5m, a6m zero as well as Mitsubishi g3m Nell bombed Pearl Harbour destroying 4 battle ships and killing dozen of thousands of innocents the 7th december 1941. The objective of the Japanese was to block the US Navy and its main battle ships to attack them. They thought that by causing a surprise attack they would win time to invade and conquer other territories and countries in AustralAsia, they also considered America as an arrogant and selfish nation which is also one of the reason they attacked Pearl Harbour. If you think Pearl Harbour was started by Americans then you are out of your mind. Historical proven facts are undeniable proven facts and it is not with your skeptical always questionning and always putting in doubt pinko attitude that you will win something in debate or be credible towards your interlocutors.
I don't trust Ahmadinejhad or Bachar El Hassad but I trust more a country who rebuilt most of Europe thanks to the Marschall plan.
What you say here is just confirming what I said before: you are insane.

Legzman · Dec 8, 2006

georges said:
they also considered America as an arrogant and selfish nation which is also one of the reason they attacked Pearl Harbour.

Funny I always thought that too, and I live there!

Peter Gazinya · Dec 8, 2006

Does anybody else find it ironic that this thread starts with the declaration that the incident that effectively ended World War II is being referred to as "the day that Peace ended"? I don't get it, how can you defeat peace by ending a war?

Legzman · Dec 8, 2006

^^^ Peace was defeated because as long as nukes exist, there will never be total piece. Everyone has them nowadays and the ONLY reason no one uses them is because they are afraid of the reprecutions. I truly believe that the world is in a nuclear stale mate. So we just war with every other weapon available!

dave_rhino · Dec 8, 2006

Peter Gazinya said:
Does anybody else find it ironic that this thread starts with the declaration that the incident that effectively ended World War II is being referred to as "the day that Peace ended"? I don't get it, how can you defeat peace by ending a war?

The man has a point.

KungFuDude · Dec 8, 2006

Legzman said:
^^^ Peace was defeated because as long as nukes exist, there will never be total piece. Everyone has them nowadays and the ONLY reason no one uses them is because they are afraid of the reprecutions. I truly believe that the world is in a nuclear stale mate. So we just war with every other weapon available!

Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes... "Nuclear weapons: Everybodys got 'em, nobodys got the balls to use 'em." -Innerspace :thumbsup:

sammy402002 · Dec 8, 2006

Peter Gazinya said:
Does anybody else find it ironic that this thread starts with the declaration that the incident that effectively ended World War II is being referred to as "the day that Peace ended"? I don't get it, how can you defeat peace by ending a war?

You are exactly right.Good point Peter.

pickles&cumquat · Dec 9, 2006

********** said:
Maybe so. Maybe I just don't believe everything I'm told. Maybe I question things too much. Is that insane? Is that more insane than saying you would slash someone's face with a knife if they tried to steal your watch? I wonder if we had a poll to see which is more "insane" - me questioning history, or you slashing the face of a petty thief and describing the details of which weapon exactly you would like to use in order to do the most possible damage... maybe you should leave the rebuttals to members that do not have such a "dark" posting history themselves. Although I shouldn't say "dark". Because you don't like that word very much, I'm sure. Something about being dark or black-on-white interracial sex being a higher risk of transferring HIV, I forget where you said it. But like you said, I'm the one who's insane, and your head on the other hand is right on the money. Funny that no-one else is branding me as insane other than the one who fantasizes about slashing or shooting criminals' faces with high tech weaponry and who has a fear of interracial sex.

As for the rest of you... you can call it "ending a war" but I call it what it was: dropping two nuclear weapons on cities full of unarmed civilians. That is why it's the blackest day. It's simple. If not the single blackest day, it certainly ranks on a similar level to the inhumane way people were mass murdered earlier in Europe during the holocaust. Instantly killing thousands by insinerating them or irradiating them. What's the fucking difference. Why do we think we're so much better than them. We say we were ending a war? They said they were ending the tyranny of the Jews and the Blacks and the Gays and the Disabled and the Slavs. So we all have our beliefs. If our beliefs can justify insinerating hundreds and thousands in a few seconds then imo we are monsters, and war is just monsters and fools begetting monsters and fools.

What you fail to understand is that Nazi death camps were for extermination and nothing more. Jews were labeled as such with the star and forced to live in ghetto's, work in brutal labor camps with little food, or simply be gassed. It was organized, efficient, and directed at a particular race of people.

The bomb was not specifically developed to be used against the Japanese. The Americans were trying to develop the bomb before the Nazi's were able to perfect it.

Keep in mind that the Japanese sneak attacked the American's at Pearl Harbor, leaving over 2000 dead.
Keep in mind that the Japanese did not believe in surrender, preferring death over dishonor (surrender)
Their treatment of POW's is infamous.

The fire bombings did far more damage, and likely caused the same amount of terror as the Nuke did.

Simply put, Nukes were used on Japan to :
1 end the war
2 save American and Japanese lives (the brain trust believed the war would continue for many months at a heavy cost to both sides, right or wrong)
3 Psychological Warfare

Nazi Death camps
1 exterminate jews
2 exterminate jews
3 exterminate jews

Phaeton · Dec 9, 2006

I was reading in Popular Mechanics today that the AirForce is working on a new Triton ballistic missile that can attack anywhere on the planet in an hour. But the bright side is that it won't be nuclear, but a space based gattling cannon. Each warhead will be full of tungsten steel rods that will fall from orbit and each of the thousands of rods will back 10x the power of a .50 cal bullet.

For the first time the D.O.D found a technology I can support. I never understood nuclear weaponry, the collateral damage is so extreme, it's only good for one thing. Extermination.

pickles&cumquat · Dec 9, 2006

I am not Jewish, but you insult a horrific time in our history by comparing the ideology of the two.

War and extermination are NOT the same thing. Its one thing to battle your foe b/c you want land or title, its not even the same ballpark when you systematically start wiping out an entire civilization b/c of color, race, or politics etc.

Ask a Rwandan, Bosnian, or a Sudanese how they feel about ethnic cleansing.

sorry i was trying to edit my post two up, and I screwed up

Roughneck · Dec 10, 2006

pickles&cumquat said:
The fire bombings did far more damage, and likely caused the same amount of terror as the Nuke did.

Simply put, Nukes were used on Japan to :
1 end the war
2 save American and Japanese lives (the brain trust believed the war would continue for many months at a heavy cost to both sides, right or wrong)
3 Psychological Warfare

Nazi Death camps
1 exterminate jews
2 exterminate jews
3 exterminate jews

And theirin lies the MORAL difference.

WWII was not a war of "Good Vs Evil". The "Allies" could hardly be considered "pure good" when one considers the fact that one of the "Allies" was a murderous barbarian in the form of Stalin.

No - WWII was the war of Lesser Evil against the Greater Evil.

For all the moaning devoted to atomic bombs - you'll never hear a whimper about Nanking or "The Greater South Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere". For all the bitching about Dresden - you'll never hear as much talk about Auschwitz or the Kommissarbefehl.

The Allied bombing campaign was not about extermination of the Germans or the Japanese - it was about ending the war, with an Allied victory.
German and Japanese policy was based, defined and executed ALONG racial genocial lines.

If the War had ended in 1942 with Allied surrender, does anyone here honestly believe Hitler or Hirohito would have adopted peaceable means?
BS! To Hitler and Hirohito - killing those they deemed necessary was not a means to an end, it was an end in itself.

The Allied alliance was a "faustian pact" like no other - in order to survive the global cataclysm and emerge victorious with the fewest losses possible, the West made a pact with Stalin. The West emerged from the war relatively unscathed - but they sold the lives of millions in Eastern Europe to Stalin as a price.

No doubt that was a heavy price to pay - the results of which are apparent even today. I accept that it was an attrocious consequence of allied victory...

... but to not see the MORAL difference the Allied bombing campaign versus the genocidal policy of the Axis is fundamentally flawed reasoning of the highest order.

It is moral degeneracy - the world is NOT "Black Vs White".

Motive makes a hell of a difference in the commission of any crime - and war IS a crime ... but there is a difference between wounding someone to get away versus hunting someone down and killing them for the pleasure of it.

A hell of a difference.

cheers,

PS: I am yet to hear of alternative ways to end the war, given the means available at the time that would have assured allied victory at lower cost than the path chosen.

PPS: There is an entirely different argument here - but for purposes of this thread, it is too off topic. It mostly deals with states, their existence and their roles in war.

Vanilla Bear · Dec 10, 2006

Nov.9.1989

Phaeton · Dec 10, 2006

When the A-bombs fell, they destroyed hospitals, churches, schools, little kids, and irradiated the DNA of people who didn't die. The bombings were done to keep the Russians from ending the Pacific War. And after WWII nobody tried to stop Stalin from systematically exterminating his people. I have always thought that was a strange double standard. The A-bombings could have been achieved with conventional weapons, but America went with "Shock and Awe". It's a freaking miracle Japan has forgiven that.

What Hitler and the Nazis did was far worse than the A-bombings, but it's like the world has forgotten that America used the most horrible weapon ever created, TWICE!!!!. Hitler most defiantly would have nuked Britain more than we did Japan. But I think the A-bombings were a war crime, because there was no distinguishing between civilian and soldier. We stratigraphical bombed Germany cities, but we completely obliterated Japanese cities. And the Japanese didn't engineer a genocide.

Roughneck · Dec 10, 2006

Phaeton said:
And the Japanese didn't engineer a genocide.

When the A-bombs fell, they destroyed hospitals, churches, schools, little kids, and irradiated the DNA of people who didn't die. The bombings were done to keep the Russians from ending the Pacific War. And after WWII nobody tried to stop Stalin from systematically exterminating his people. I have always thought that was a strange double standard. The A-bombings could have been achieved with conventional weapons, but America went with "Shock and Awe". It's a freaking miracle Japan has forgiven that.

As has been pointed out time and again - more people were killed during conventional bombing raids than during the a-bombs over Japan.

The crime is in bombing the city itself - do you expect me to believe that Japanese civillians would much prefer to be roasted alive during conventional firebombing raids (as they did by the hundred thousand in Tokyo)? BUT --- It is a crime ALL participants of WWII were guilty off! I am NOT denying that.

But there IS a FUNDAMENTAL, MORAL difference between the policy that governed the Western Allies (end the war) Versus the policy of the fascist Axis (domination of the world and extermination of "undersirables"). I don't believe the ends justify the means - but when we are using hindsight and playing "armchair general", we must judge historical record in proper perspective.

As I said before - WWII was a battle of "Lesser evil" against "Greater Evil".

cheers,

PS: Japan "forgave" us quickly because we didn't let them starve to death as we just as easily could have....

Roughneck · Dec 10, 2006

********** said:
You're good. :bowdown:

Military history is hobby of mine. Fourteen years and counting. The web links are actually new (and there are actually many many more on the Nanking Massacre and Japanese Comfort Women that I left out)

My book collection on WWII, Korean War, Vietnam and Civil War is far more extensive.

cheers,

PS: Read some of the links. I guarantee you you'll be surprised about the big bad evil American government and her horrid armed forces.

Phaeton · Dec 10, 2006

Roughneck said:
I shouldn't bother responding to that piece of ignorant tripe, but since I don't know any better:

Holly crap, my balls hurt after that one.

Reading that fucked up my night, and got me depressed.

ÆGEAN · Dec 10, 2006

what annoys me is that the Japanese government has not apologised to the way they treated POW's of the allies, especially Australian troops and other Commonwealth forces...

that is my gripe

pickles&cumquat · Dec 10, 2006

We learned one thing from A-bombs, they are so powerful and destructive, that they cannot differentiate between military and civilian casualties. Then again, either do conventional bombs

Ethnic clensings have continued despite the Jewish Holocaust.....and like Hiroshima, the Jews have let the world know exactly how badly they were treated.

ask the people of the Sudan, Rwanada, Bosnia, Macedonia how they feel about extermination....the world doesn't seem to care ....that in itself is an atrocitie

Phaeton · Dec 10, 2006

pickles&cumquat said:
ask the people of the Sudan, Rwanda, Bosnia, Macedonia how they feel about extermination....the world doesn't seem to care ....that in itself is an atrocities

Don't forget the Cambodians and the Russians. Both faced their own leaders killing them in their own homes. Stalin almost ended an entire religion. And Pol-pot threw his people back to the bronze age.

At least A-bombings never led to H-bombings.

The Blackest Day of the World History.

Legzman

what the fuck you lookin at?

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