The Blackest Day of the World History.

[Jagger69]

Actually, the Soviets declared war on Japan on August 8, two days after Hiroshima. Supposedly there was a provision agreed to at Yalta in which Stalin was to enter the war against Japan within 6 months of the end of hostilities in Europe. After the US dropped the bomb, Stalin put that plan into high gear in order to solidify Soviet claims on former Russian territories like Sakhalin Island (lost to Japan in the Russo-Japanese War in 1905) and to block further advancement by US forces in that region.

 

[pussy+dickdenice]

Thank you all for defending the most henious act of cruelty in the annals of the world history to general people of a country. Please remember all the men & women died were not soldiers. And the destructive power of the bomb was well known by the person/persons who ordered to drop it on Hiroshima.

That particular day God left the world to the Devil.

Thank you all once again. :bowdown:

dd

 

[serpentor]

Actually, the Soviets declared war on Japan on August 8, two days after Hiroshima. Supposedly there was a provision agreed to at Yalta in which Stalin was to enter the war against Japan within 6 months of the end of hostilities in Europe. After the US dropped the bomb, Stalin put that plan into high gear in order to solidify Soviet claims on former Russian territories like Sakhalin Island (lost to Japan in the Russo-Japanese War in 1905) and to block further advancement by US forces in that region.

Thanks I couldn't remember if it was the before or the day after the second bomb. I was told that the U.S. military dropped leaflets warning of the attack a couple of days before, but it was in English so the majority of the population had no idea what it meant, does anyone know if this is true, or was my prof. just bullshiting me.

 

[pussy+dickdenice]

Thanks I couldn't remember if it was the before or the day after the second bomb. I was told that the U.S. military dropped leaflets warning of the attack a couple of days before, but it was in English so the majority of the population had no idea what it meant, does anyone know if this is true, or was my prof. just bullshiting me.

A part quote: "The area of Nagasaki did not receive warning leaflets until August 10, though the leaflet campaign covering the whole country was over a month into its ..."

Another: "In response to the argument that the large-scale killing of civilians was immoral and a war crime, supporters of the bombings have argued that the Japanese government waged total war, ordering many civilians (including women and children) to work in factories and military offices and to fight against any invading force. Father John A. Siemes, professor of modern philosophy at Tokyo's Catholic University, and an eyewitness to the atomic bomb attack on Hiroshima wrote:

"We have discussed among ourselves the ethics of the use of the bomb. Some consider it in the same category as poison gas and were against its use on a civil population. Others were of the view that in total war, as carried on in Japan, there was no difference between civilians and soldiers, and that the bomb itself was an effective force tending to end the bloodshed, warning Japan to surrender and thus to avoid total destruction. It seems logical to me that he who supports total war in principle cannot complain of war against civilians."[37]

Some supporters of the bombings have emphasized the strategic significance of Hiroshima, as the Japanese 2nd army's headquarters, and of Nagasaki, as a major munitions manufacturing center.

Some historians have claimed that U.S. planners wanted to end the war quickly to minimize potential Soviet acquisition of Japanese-held territory.

Opposition
The cenotaph at the Hiroshima Peace Park is inscribed with an ambiguous sentence: "Rest in peace, for this mistake will not be repeated." This construction, natural in the Japanese language, was intended to memorialize the victims of Hiroshima without politicizing the issue.
Enlarge
The cenotaph at the Hiroshima Peace Park is inscribed with an ambiguous sentence: "Rest in peace, for this mistake will not be repeated." This construction, natural in the Japanese language, was intended to memorialize the victims of Hiroshima without politicizing the issue.

Objections to the bombings generally emphasize one or both of two points:

1. That the bombings were inherently immoral due to the massive civilian casualties.
2. The unique nature of nuclear weapons, and that the bombings were unjustified and unnecessary for tactical military reasons."

And the Full text on Wikipedia.

dd

 

[Jagger69]

Thank you all for defending the most henious act of cruelty in the annals of the world history to general people of a country. Please remember all the men & women died were not soldiers. And the destructive power of the bomb was well known by the person/persons who ordered to drop it on Hiroshima.

That particular day God left the world to the Devil.

Thank you all once again. :bowdown:

dd

Sorry, DD, but you need to get off your self-righteous high-horse for a minute. If you want to make a judgment about the morality of war in general, that's fine. As has been already mentioned here, more people (civilians) were killed in the Tokyo and Dresden firebombings than at either Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Nazi Germany slaughtered 6 million Jews and Gypsies. Some estimates say that over 20 million Soviet citizens and soldiers were killed in the war. The Japanese tortured and starved to death thousands of POWS, including my best friend's Dad. Who did God leave in charge when all that shit was going on? How is it somehow more ethical to shoot someone in the back of the head execution-style or gas them with Zyklon-B or starve them to death in a prison camp than it is to drop a nuclear weapon on them?

It's war itself that is the problem, my friend. The methods used to conduct it are by their very necessity inherently cruel and inhuman. It has been that way since the beginning of humankind and will always be such if we do not agree to end war forever....which, given the current state of affairs, isn't likely anytime soon.

 

[Jagger69]

Another: "In response to the argument that the large-scale killing of civilians was immoral and a war crime, supporters of the bombings have argued that the Japanese government waged total war, ordering many civilians (including women and children) to work in factories and military offices and to fight against any invading force. Father John A. Siemes, professor of modern philosophy at Tokyo's Catholic University, and an eyewitness to the atomic bomb attack on Hiroshima wrote:

"We have discussed among ourselves the ethics of the use of the bomb. Some consider it in the same category as poison gas and were against its use on a civil population. Others were of the view that in total war, as carried on in Japan, there was no difference between civilians and soldiers, and that the bomb itself was an effective force tending to end the bloodshed, warning Japan to surrender and thus to avoid total destruction. It seems logical to me that he who supports total war in principle cannot complain of war against civilians."[37]

Very well said, Father Siemes.

 

[Jagger69]

Thanks I couldn't remember if it was the before or the day after the second bomb. I was told that the U.S. military dropped leaflets warning of the attack a couple of days before, but it was in English so the majority of the population had no idea what it meant, does anyone know if this is true, or was my prof. just bullshiting me.

He's bullshitting you. The leaflets were in Japanese. I guess they thought we were bluffing. The responsibility for Nagasaki rests at the feet of Hirohito and Tojo, not the U.S.

I wonder how much warning Japan would have given us had they developed the bomb first? We'll never know but my guess is probably about as much warning as they gave us when they attacked Pearl Harbor.

Link is here:

http://***********/9wj5y

 

[pussy+dickdenice]

It's war itself that is the problem, my friend. The methods used to conduct it are by their very necessity inherently cruel and inhuman. It has been that way since the beginning of humankind and will always be such if we do not agree to end war forever....which, given the current state of affairs, isn't likely anytime soon.

You are right in saying that war itself is the problem.

Now, what I wanted to bring out is the first use of N-bomb in the war. Previously it was only conventional warfare. But the entire scenario of a war had changed the moment that A-Bomb was detonated. It was detonated at the mid sky to make it much more devastating, knowingly. That is what was cruel and dark to the extreme point of black.

People are talking about total war. Tell me what war is not total? If Japanese were guilty of the same, who was not? Was dropping napahm over nations and burning people in villages, a reaction against a non-total war?

Please introspect for a minute and say that I'm still riding on a high horse. But I assure you, whatever I am, I am not self-righteous.
Thanks.

dd

 

[Jagger69]

You stand up and say it is wrong to incinerate thousands and we should all feel ashamed, not proud, and they tell you you're self-righteous. Isn't it human nature to feel ashamed when we incinerate thousands of our own? Or are we all supposed to feel nothing, because "they're the enemy" and therefore less than human? Imagine what we're capable of if we can view our enemies as less than human. Hitler is one of many good examples of that.

Fox

Fox, just to clarify, my reply about DD's self-righteousness was in repsonse to this post:

Thank you all for defending the most henious act of cruelty in the annals of the world history to general people of a country. Please remember all the men & women died were not soldiers. And the destructive power of the bomb was well known by the person/persons who ordered to drop it on Hiroshima.

That particular day God left the world to the Devil.

Thank you all once again. :bowdown:

dd

I took these remarks as being self-righteous as if to have not dropped the bomb and to have allowed hundreds of thousands of people (a good many of them Americans) to die instead would have been a more noble option. Condemn Truman all you want for making the decision to drop the bomb but I stand convinced that it was, unquestionably, the proper decision. It saved a tremendous number of lives, both American and Japanese, by causing Japan to surrender immediately.

DD's link is great but have you read all of the repsonses to it that are below the diagrams of the destruction the bomb produced? If not, I urge you to read this reply from a Japanese citizen and then tell me that a full-scale amphibious invasion of Honshu, Shikoku and Kyushu would have been a more humaitarian act:

Mike G,

The article you posted doesn't reflect what I know of my own people. It is unlikely that Japan would have capitulated without a full-scale invasion or something as catastrophic as an A-bomb. Keep in mind that surrender did not come after Hiroshima. It only came after Nagasaki and the threat to use more a-bombs (though the United States did not have other bombs ready, the Japanese military did not know that). This fits with the picture we saw of Japan throughout WWII.

Do some research on how bloody and vicious the fighting was on Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Look at the fact my people were putting teens in airplanes to conduct suicide attacks against US naval ships. Some were as young as 16. Read on how the military preparations on Kyushu and how many people had volunteered for what was the equivalent of militia. Then take some time to study Bushido and how it was applied to the Japanese military forces during WWII. One important concept: better to die gloriously or in service to one's lord (in this case, the Emperor) than to live in shame (and surrender was shameful which was why "banzai attacks" were launched when the situation was lost)

 

[lovejoy]

I always wondered why the US did not drop two hydrogen bombs at Tokyo, the Capital of Japan. It would kill millions and millions more to come !

The fact is Berlin is totally destroyed due to heavy carpet bombing at the end of WWII. And the ground Forces of Allies and Russian Troops destroyed every block in Berlin. It is no difference than dropping two H-bombs at Japan.

Both the German and the *** civilians suffered. But I did not shed a tear at all of tens of thousands of civilians died in Japan because of what the Imperial Japanese Army did in WWII killing and raping half a million in Nanking, China and salughtering millions of civilians in China and fighting to the end against the American GI (Marines) in South Pacific ! Don't forget the death march against the American Army in Phillipines. Tens of Thousands of Americans GI died during the forced march in Phillipines and the American women who served in the Army Nurses Corps were also victims too !

Death is part of our life. Sure approx. 3,000 Americans died in 9/11 but did anyone know everyday, approx. 3,000 Americans died of heart attack and over 50,000 Americans died of traffic accidents each year ! Those are preventable causes of death but we "choose" the path of death in the line of traffic or hamburgers !!!

 

[lovejoy]

Don't forget there is no difference between the Japanese Imperial Army and the Japanese civilians living in the South Pacific Islands. During the fierce fighting at the end, the American GI saw the most horrible things---Japanese women carrying their babies, young children jumped off the cliff to commit suicide instead of surrending to the American. So even the Japanese civilians women refused to surrender and instead thousands jumped off the cliff to die in the glory of their Emperor ! It is sick , sick, sick !

 

[Roughneck]

How many Americans and Brits do you think would have comitted suicide rather than live under the Nazis? If they knew, knew for sure, that the Nazis were taking over... that they had lost... I bet a lot of Americans and Brits would have "saved" their children and jumped off the cliffs just like the Japanese.

Somehow I doubt it - despite the occupation of Europe and the attrocities perpetrated by the Nazis --- there was no wholesale, mass suicide in occupied Europe.

Whole sale murder? Yes.
Whole sace suicide? Nada.

PS Always remember... in wartime... the enemy sees "us" the same way we see "them". That is very important. We are never, ever "better" than them no matter what we think, what we convince ourselves, or what our governments try to convince us.

Gee I don't know Fox. Even during WWII - it wasn't our policy to simply gas people or shoot them because they were "insert ethnic group here".

That counts for something - doesn't it?

Oh yes, our wartime propaganda was fabulous - the bucktoothed slant eyed "***" or the blood thirsty baby munching "Kraut".

But propaganda is one thing versus abominations like "Der Kommissarbefehl" or Imperial Japan's treatment of PoWs (or hell, non-Japanese in general).

Indeed, the historian Johnson in his book "Looting of Asia" notes that:

It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers — and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4 % chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30 %.

Ofcourse, the US was guilty of such dastardly practices such as the internment of all Japanese-Americans (and subsequent lack of internment of Italian and German Americans). But this was the 40s. The Army itself was still segregated. And I won't deny that at all.

But while I can empathise with your point about the propaganda duel between the two opposing factions, there is a quaint yet immortal difference between the two.

We didn't shoot stretcher bearers like the Japanese did.
We never used POWs as slave labour like the Nazis. We didn't make them undertake forced marches or death through overwork and starvation like the Japanese.


Oh we sure did a lot of dastardly things in that war, no doubt. But it was rarely, if ever, OFFICIAL POLICY.... unlike our opposing factions.

Most war is fratricide - I'll give you that. I've seen the sights, smelled the smells, felt the terror and boredom enough to come to that wry conclusion. But don't expect me to believe that all individual lives are the same value and worth - for that would equate someone like you or me with having the same worth as a racist nazi. You think that's fair?

I don't know about you but I ain't up to that at all....


cheers,

 

[Dean Wormer]

All things considered August 6, 1945 (and August 9) were very good days.

 

[Jagger69]

I always wondered why the US did not drop two hydrogen bombs at Tokyo, the Capital of Japan. It would kill millions and millions more to come !

The fact is Berlin is totally destroyed due to heavy carpet bombing at the end of WWII. And the ground Forces of Allies and Russian Troops destroyed every block in Berlin. It is no difference than dropping two H-bombs at Japan.

Both the German and the *** civilians suffered. But I did not shed a tear at all of tens of thousands of civilians died in Japan because of what the Imperial Japanese Army did in WWII killing and raping half a million in Nanking, China and salughtering millions of civilians in China and fighting to the end against the American GI (Marines) in South Pacific ! Don't forget the death march against the American Army in Phillipines. Tens of Thousands of Americans GI died during the forced march in Phillipines and the American women who served in the Army Nurses Corps were also victims too !

Death is part of our life. Sure approx. 3,000 Americans died in 9/11 but did anyone know everyday, approx. 3,000 Americans died of heart attack and over 50,000 Americans died of traffic accidents each year ! Those are preventable causes of death but we "choose" the path of death in the line of traffic or hamburgers !!!

No....we didn't need to kill "millions and millions more". That attitude is abhorrent. We needed to end the war....period. The fact that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen as targets intsead of Tokyo or Osaka illustrated this very plainly.

One note of clarification as well....the "H" bomb (hydrogen bomb) was first detonated in 1952 so we didn't, and couldn't, have deployed it against Japan in 1945.

 

[Member2019]

Sigh ...

Well, people still don't understand the real reasons. And the revisionist history is killer. But that all aside.

People think that if the US did not invent the fissionable weapon it wouldn't exist? Hardly. The US is only guilty of being first.

BTW, I have no idea what that page is talking about Japan trying to surrender. Now that's revisionist history!

 

[ThatRedWing]

It's all in the past now. The Germans were working on the bomb and so were the Russians. The only thing is the U.S. got it first. I'm tired of all the U.S. bashing. We are the Devil untill you need help from a war or a natural disaster. We Don't get a fraction of the help that we send out in emergencies.

 

[Member2019]

We Don't get a fraction of the help that we send out in emergencies.

Indeed.
We were "at fault" for the Tsunami.
Then we "deserved" New Orleans.

No one pays attention to the US DoD building a 2 million node sensor net to detect tsunamis. And no one listened to the US Army Corps of Engineers who flat out stated that the walls of New Orleans could only stand so much. In every case, the DoD apologies, the ACE apologies, and no one listens. Blame the US federal government by default.

Those who criticize the US for our using "the bomb" obviously don't know what was going on in Japan at the time. Their military was training every man, woman and child to fight an American invasion as the Emperor wept. It wasn't until we showed them we could kill every last one of them without losing a soldier that the Emperor could get the military to capitulate.

Just reading some of the stories (as well as few videos) of how Japanese civilians "acted" in the US' island hopping campaigns made me wept. They were so brainwashed that many American soldiers died at their hands rather than shoot them. Other Japanese civilians would run and jump from cliffs to avoid being caught by American soldiers. Now imagine tens of millions of Japanese like that as we invaded! No, the bombs saved lives.

Besides, the fact that someone used one is the reason why no one has ever again.

 

[pussy+dickdenice]

Indeed.
We were "at fault" for the Tsunami.
Then we "deserved" New Orleans.

Right Prof. But just for curiosity's sake find out which country sent the least aid to Sumatra, when tsunami actually struck.

Those who criticize the US for our using "the bomb" obviously don't know what was going on in Japan at the time. Their military was training every man, woman and child to fight an American invasion as the Emperor wept. It wasn't until we showed them we could kill every last one of them without losing a soldier that the Emperor could get the military to capitulate.

Right again. It really justifies mass killing. (But all others are to be termed terrorists, if the bombs/ammos used are not stamped. 'Made in USA.')

I've already said "thank you all' once. Will thousand "thank yous" will do the trick?

FO allows only five,
so,

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:​

dd

 

[Jagger69]

Indeed.
We were "at fault" for the Tsunami.
Then we "deserved" New Orleans.

No one pays attention to the US DoD building a 2 million node sensor net to detect tsunamis. And no one listened to the US Army Corps of Engineers who flat out stated that the walls of New Orleans could only stand so much. In every case, the DoD apologies, the ACE apologies, and no one listens. Blame the US federal government by default.

Those who criticize the US for our using "the bomb" obviously don't know what was going on in Japan at the time. Their military was training every man, woman and child to fight an American invasion as the Emperor wept. It wasn't until we showed them we could kill every last one of them without losing a soldier that the Emperor could get the military to capitulate.

Just reading some of the stories (as well as few videos) of how Japanese civilians "acted" in the US' island hopping campaigns made me wept. They were so brainwashed that many American soldiers died at their hands rather than shoot them. Other Japanese civilians would run and jump from cliffs to avoid being caught by American soldiers. Now imagine tens of millions of Japanese like that as we invaded! No, the bombs saved lives.

Besides, the fact that someone used one is the reason why no one has ever again.

Excellent points, Prof. I agree 100%. U.S. gets blamed for everything and gets credit for nothing. It's bullshit.

:thumbsup:

 

[Roughneck]

Right Prof. But just for curiosity's sake find out which country sent the least aid to Sumatra, when tsunami actually struck.

Naturally, "Aid projections" don't forcast the cost of operating the US 7th Fleet in the area -- which was one of the first on scene and which lent tremendous help in CSAR and MEDEVAC.

By the way: I am NOT a big fan of taxpayer funded/subsidised "foreign aid". Far too often, 'foreign aid' is used as a cover for funding favoured political parties or 'rebel groups' and other general "interference". (For more information see "National Endowment for Democracy).

Also, government "foreign aid" usually travels between governments. Talk about stupidity! An ineffectual largesse entity collecting and sending money to another ineffectual largesse entity!

The private citizens of the United States are among the most generous in the world. I'd rather citizens donate from private charity to private organizations than Governments "donating" from taxed money. (I'm a regular donor to the Christian Children's Fund. I like the organisation, it doesn't proselytise, it's record is good and I get regular updates on where my money is being spent).

And people wonder why I don't like the military. I don't. And as an American, I am ALLOWED to have that point of view.

Fair enough. I wouldn't presume otherwise.

I think the military are murderers, and anyone that signs up is allowing themselves to become murderers for the state, whether they're doing it for god or freedom or college.

Frankly, I did it because of my best friends. It wasn't so much about patriotism or "doing the right thing" or "earning money for college" in as much as it was about being faithful to a promise to 'be together - come hell or high water'. I just couldn't stand by while my brothers in all but name and blood were sent off to harms way.

I lost my brother to war.
Of the two friends I signed up with - one never made it home. Infact, he died a few hours short of his 21st birthday.

This country is still beautiful because I can still say that and I'm JUST as American as anyone else here. This country is still beautiful because I wasn't born or raised here and I'm JUST as American as anyone else here. This country is FREE, and our beliefs are FREE

and I believe that that freedom is not due to the murderers that wear khakis... not due to bombing towns and villages in Iraq and Afghanistan... I believe THOSE things are infringements on the freedom of others and don't do anything for US except make us richer and more powerful and as an American, an Englishman, and a human being, I will fight against that kind of hypocrisy, murder, injustice and exploitation until the day I die.

Fair enough.

I don't believe the Constitution grants me freedom.
I don't believe that the armed forces or a free press preserves my freedom. They make for nice speeches on the Right and the Left (respectively).

I am born free. It's up to me to live my life free. And I'll do my damnedest to die free. Nobody grants me that freedom. Freedom and liberty are my birthrights.

Don't blame the soldiers? To me, that's the same as saying, don't blame the guy with the backpack who blows up the shopping mall. They're both carrying out orders. They're both killing innocents. They both have their reasons and probably believe in them. I see nothing redeeming about either one, period.

I won't dismiss war are "irredeemable" outright. After all, this nation's liberty was wrought through the forge of blood and steel.

Don't get me wrong - I don't approve of "spreading liberty and democracy" through force and coercion. But I won't say that "nothing is worth war" either.

I try not to tell soldiers to their face, things like that, because it upsets and angers them...but if I am told what to think, if I am told what it means to be "American", if I am constantly being forcefed this bullshit about how it's okay to nuke cities full of people... I'm gonna come out and tell you what I think. If you guys are right, I'm a pretty bad American ha, pretty naive and all that crap, but still an American. If I am right, then all of you who support the US armed forces, or any other armed forces that invade or bomb other countries for any reason, can count yourselves among those you see on TV, cheering as the towers fell down. If you cheer the deaths of innocents and support the war like a sports game, you are NO DIFFERENT to the people you hate and swear to exterminate.

War is never about extermination.

Sorry Fox, you got the wrong idea about War.


cheers,