My thoughts on God

Let's suppose there is a God. The point is, with the enormous amount of horrible things that happen in the world, why would anyone care whether there is a God? I mean, is God powerful enough to create a universe but not powerful or smart enough to make it so there are not a huge number of horrible things that happen? This seems hard to imagine and contradicts what people usually believe are the characteristics of God, i.e. omnipotence. If God really is not powerful enough to design a universe that has little to no suffering, I submit that God is hardly worth worshipping and should be treated as a matter of indifference.

Maybe we could say, "hey, thanks" but worship seems more sensibly directed towards a being who would have a much more positive resume of helpful intervention in our world then we can presently assume exists. If not helpful intervention, then an alternative design that would have led to more benevolent outcomes through the course of time. In other words, there is every reason to believe that if there is a God then it has abandoned us and doesn't care or that it is outright malevolent. To simply have faith that it cares is to confuse what care means. If I say there is a 3 year old little girl in Africa who has Aids and is malnourished and ask a believer in God why God let's this child suffer and die, and if they say they have faith that God cares, this is nonsensical since the definition of care is to help when you are able and willing. I don't think it makes sense to say you care about something and do nothing to help it. Like if I say i care about the War in Iraq and am against it, and then I basically do nothing to stop it, in what meaningful sense can I say I care other then in an abstract intellectual sense which means nothing for helping those who are suffering? I don't think we should throw around the word care if it is not tied to action. It allows people to get off too easily by saying, "oh, i care, but i do nothing."

Let's substitute myself for God. If I had the power and desire to help this little girl, and I did not help the little girl, someone could reasonably conclude I either don't really have the power or will. Because what other explanation would there be? That I am giving the little girl a test to see how well she can put up with suffering or see how much her parents can continue to believe in a caring god no matter how much the facts contradict that belief? If i did something like this, I would rightly be called cruel. If God does it, it somehow magically transforms into grounds for worship. If I deliberately starved my child and said I wanted to see if he continued to love me in his state of starvation, I would be considered some type of psychopath.

I could say a lot more, but that is all for now.
 

ChefChiTown

The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
Let's suppose there is a God. The point is, with the enormous amount of horrible things that happen in the world, why would anyone care whether there is a God? I mean, is God powerful enough to create a universe but not powerful or smart enough to make it so there are not a huge number of horrible things that happen? This seems hard to imagine and contradicts what people usually believe are the characteristics of God, i.e. omnipotence. If God really is not powerful enough to design a universe that has little to no suffering, I submit that God is hardly worth worshipping and should be treated as a matter of indifference.

This is exactly why religious people rely on phrases like...

"God's will be done"
"Everything happens for a reason"
"It's all part of God's plan"

...to defend God, when people start questioning why He allows us to suffer.
 
Assuming people believe in him, why would or should anybody expect God to solve all of their or even the world's problems for them? It kind of defeats the purpose of letting people have free will or growing spiritually themselves. Also, if God solved everybody's problems nobody would want to do anything for themselves. Life would become kind of meaningless if he did everything for people and they would become even more bankrupt inside then they are now. Maybe he doesn't solve all of lives problems because frankly that supposed to be our jobs and were not doing it and we need to learn how.
 

ChefChiTown

The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
Assuming people believe in him, why would or should anybody expect God to solve all of their or even the world's problems for them? It kind of defeats the purpose of letting people have free will or growing spiritually themselves. Also, if God solved everybody's problems nobody would want to do anything for themselves. Life would become kind of meaningless if he did everything for people and they would become even more bankrupt inside then they are now. Maybe he doesn't solve all of lives problems because frankly that supposed to be our jobs and were not doing it and we need to learn how.

The reason people turn to God in the first place is because life is meaningless and they're just searching for a sense of direction.
 
This is exactly why religious people rely on phrases like...

"God's will be done"
"Everything happens for a reason"
"It's all part of God's plan"

...to defend God, when people start questioning why He allows us to suffer.

understood. but if i did the same things and used the same logic, i'd be called a psychopath. if i sent a hurricane to florida and it killed 1,000 people, and if i claimed "Milton's will be done" then i would appropriately be considered cruel and subsequently imprisoned and/or executed. What sensible reason or plan would there be for sending a hurricane to kill 1,000 people in florida unless I was a sadistic and malevolent being who enjoyed telling people one thing (i love you) and then did the exact opposite (killing you, thus demonstrating i don't love you). As I said, is the plan to teach us the value of suffering and still maintaining love in god, like in the book of Job where God deliberately allows Satan to torture Job but Job still loves God?

A simple question is, wouldn't it be better to not suffer then to go through a bunch of tests that no one ever asked you if you want to take and that potentially involve enormous amounts of suffering? It seem to me religious people believe it is better to suffer then not suffer, which is masochism, which means god is a sadist. God enjoys torturing you so you can maybe "get something out of it," as with Job. But what you are getting out of suffering, whatever value it has (if any), can only be said to better then not suffering at all if you are a masochist and enjoy suffering for the lessons it teaches you. So again, why don't i just go across the street now and cut my neighbors dick off and when he says i'm cruel, i'll just say, "hey, afterall, i'm just trying to get you to understand that you can still love god even when you suffer. you should feel good about your castration because it allows you to feel a greater connection with god then if you still had your cock." i would be a psychopath. And so on and so forth....
 
The best answer that I've heard to the "why would God turn his back on us like that" statement is:

God did not turn his back on anyone. WE as a society turned our back on God and have since the beginning of time. We took prayer out of schools, mock him in media and sin like theres no hell. Then when shit hits the fan, we wonder where He is? (quoted by my parents pastor, translated by me lol...you get the jist)


But in saying that, I don't really agree with religion, and don't 100% buy that statement because even horrible things happen to the most faithful people in the world. I'm just adding my two cents lol.
 
God did not turn his back on anyone. WE as a society turned our back on God and have since the beginning of time. We took prayer out of schools, mock him in media and sin like theres no hell. Then when shit hits the fan, we wonder where He is? (quoted by my parents pastor, translated by me lol...you get the jist)

I'm sure I've heard that before?

You sure your parents pastor, hasnt been lifting quotes from The West Wing or something like that?

I know I've heard that before!!! But where :crash:
 
Assuming people believe in him, why would or should anybody expect God to solve all of their or even the world's problems for them? It kind of defeats the purpose of letting people have free will or growing spiritually themselves. Also, if God solved everybody's problems nobody would want to do anything for themselves. Life would become kind of meaningless if he did everything for people and they would become even more bankrupt inside then they are now. Maybe he doesn't solve all of lives problems because frankly that supposed to be our jobs and were not doing it and we need to learn how.

"why would or should anybody expect God to solve all of their or even the world's problems for them?" Answer: Because it is better to not suffer, whereas the current state of things involves an enormous amount of suffering.

You can have free will but not the freedom to harm others. I can be free to eat either chocolate or vanilla ice cream but not free to rape my 5 year old son. Wouldn't that be a better universe?

What do you mean nobody would want to do anything for themselves? Why would anyone have to do anything other then whatever they felt like doing as long as it didn't invovle causing suffering?

Bankrupt inside? This is just rhetoric. Would you rather live in a world where you didn't have to worry about anything but be called "bankrupt," or would you rather sit around and listen to someone tell you god loves you but lets you suffer? I wouldn't call option A "bankrupt", i'd call it a better life for all of us because to not suffer is better then to suffer.

Yeah, maybe solving problems is supposed to be our job, but we are very bad at it, and there are certain problems we probably will never be able to solve, like for example natural disasters killing people and deadly viruses killing people. Why doesn't god just make the world from the get go so there are no problems to be solved? What are you going to say, because it would be boring? So it is boring to get up every morning and play basketball (or masturbate or whatever) then it is to have to solve 1,000,000 problems in the world?
 
I'm sure I've heard that before?

You sure your parents pastor, hasnt been lifting quotes from The West Wing or something like that?

I know I've heard that before!!! But where :crash:

I'm sure it was some sort of statement that got passed around amongst religious authorities after 9/11. Everyone wanted answers and alot of people went seeking a faith or something to believe in. I'm sure one of the big name evangelists came up with it and everyone took it and used it in their sermons.
 
I'm sure it was some sort of statement that got passed around amongst religious authorities after 9/11. Everyone wanted answers and alot of people went seeking a faith or something to believe in. I'm sure one of the big name evangelists came up with it and everyone took it and used it in their sermons.

Maybe your right. I seem to remember it from a television show or a film, but I cant seem to remember which one now!?!

Anyway, it doesnt really matter :hatsoff:
 
The best answer that I've heard to the "why would God turn his back on us like that" statement is:

God did not turn his back on anyone. WE as a society turned our back on God and have since the beginning of time. We took prayer out of schools, mock him in media and sin like theres no hell. Then when shit hits the fan, we wonder where He is? (quoted by my parents pastor, translated by me lol...you get the jist)


But in saying that, I don't really agree with religion, and don't 100% buy that statement because even horrible things happen to the most faithful people in the world. I'm just adding my two cents lol.

yes, horrible things happen to the most faithful, horrible things also happen to children and animals and the retarded and the mentally ill and etc. who are not capable of faith. Also, wouldn't it be better to just create a condition of no suffering even for those who supposedly turn their back on god? If you love someone, you will help them even if they have done something you don't approve of. For example, "love your enemy". Why doesn't this then apply to god in relation to god's so-called human enemies? Why not just make the world in such a way where you don't even have the opportunity to turn your back on god? this would limit, although not eliminate, our freedom but drastically decrease suffering to the point of non-existence or almost non-existence.

I've been thinking about this type of shit for a good 5 years now and I have never seen someone give me a satisfactory explanation. I've read about all kinds of things religious philosophers/theologians says, like about free will and other types of things, but the bottom line for me is that to suffer is worse then to not suffer and if there is a universe that was created by a god where there is an enormous amount of suffering, and it could have contained no or minimal suffering, that god is not worth worshipping or even talking about. The only point in talking about it is to convince people who believe that they might believe in something that is real, at least possibly, but it is impossible to say it loves you given the state of reality we inhabit.
 
I remember seeing a wall plaque in a shrine given in thanks to God for the recovery of their daughter after she was run over by a bus.The same God who of course allowed the bus to run over their daughter is now praised as merciful.
I see no point in an all powerful God because this contains its own inconsistencies.Why do anything when you know what the outcome is going to be anyway?It all amounts to playing with us.I find the whole idea so full of logical contradictions that it's impossible for me to believe in such a being.
 
The reason people turn to God in the first place is because life is meaningless and they're just searching for a sense of direction.

You probably shouldn't speak for everybody that is religious for why they believe in God.

"why would or should anybody expect God to solve all of their or even the world's problems for them?" Answer: Because it is better to not suffer, whereas the current state of things involves an enormous amount of suffering.

You can have free will but not the freedom to harm others. I can be free to eat either chocolate or vanilla ice cream but not free to rape my 5 year old son. Wouldn't that be a better universe?

What do you mean nobody would want to do anything for themselves? Why would anyone have to do anything other then whatever they felt like doing as long as it didn't invovle causing suffering?

Bankrupt inside? This is just rhetoric. Would you rather live in a world where you didn't have to worry about anything but be called "bankrupt," or would you rather sit around and listen to someone tell you god loves you but lets you suffer? I wouldn't call option A "bankrupt", i'd call it a better life for all of us because to not suffer is better then to suffer.

Yeah, maybe solving problems is supposed to be our job, but we are very bad at it, and there are certain problems we probably will never be able to solve, like for example natural disasters killing people and deadly viruses killing people. Why doesn't god just make the world from the get go so there are no problems to be solved? What are you going to say, because it would be boring? So it is boring to get up every morning and play basketball (or masturbate or whatever) then it is to have to solve 1,000,000 problems in the world?

I would rather live in a world where people searched within themselves and did the right thing because of it then doing it because God or somebody else forced them to do it. I don't speak for God, but I wouldn't be surprised if God felt the same way. I have suffered pain and loss, but in still choosing to do the right things I'm a better person for it. In looking at the face of evil and recognizing it for what it is and resisting both the evil both in the world and the evil in me I have come to understand the world and other people better, and have come to realize just why the corruption in the world is so wrong. Doing the right thing in a situation like the one you described is meaningless. It's less about people doing it themselves in that situation and more like they are programmed to do it like a robot. I wouldn't want to live in that world, because existence would become meaningless. I want to live in a world where everybody chooses to treat each other with dignity. The fact some people think that’s never going to be possible is an unacceptable answer to me.
 

ChefChiTown

The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
The best answer that I've heard to the "why would God turn his back on us like that" statement is:

God did not turn his back on anyone. WE as a society turned our back on God and have since the beginning of time. We took prayer out of schools, mock him in media and sin like theres no hell. Then when shit hits the fan, we wonder where He is? (quoted by my parents pastor, translated by me lol...you get the jist)

HAHAHAHA, I've heard that sooooo many times from religious figures. I just think it's hypocritical for religious figures to say things like "God created man" or that someone has "God given talent", and then turn around and act as if God has nothing to do with the negative things about man.

Like, wait a minute...if someone who is good at basketball has a "God given talent", wouldn't that mean that people who are bad at basketball have a "God given lack of talent?"

It's almost as if God gets all the credit for all of the good things in life, but mankind has to take the blame for all of the bad things in life. Yet..."God created man", so shouldn't He be taking some of the responsibility too?

:rolleyes: This is why I don't go to church.

You probably shouldn't speak for everybody that is religious for why they believe in God.

Then give me another reason why people would believe in God and become religious...
 
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