Michael Moore

[Dirty Sanchez]

Never said I believed anything. Just pointing out that there are factual flaws in Moore's movies. I can't ask someone not to believe everything they hear from Moore, while at the same time saying those sites I posted are 100% true. To get a balanced view, you have to take into account information provided from the left, and info provided from the right.

 

[MightyKrendall]

I have no use for Michael Moore after I heard some of the stuff he's said about America. He said that he's made it one his goals in life to make America more like Canada and he also said that Canada trying to be like America is like "pissing on yourself." He's also said some pretty harsh things about us in England, though I can't remember them off the top of my head. He refers to the Al Quida (sp?) and other terrorists as the true heroes and we're the enemy.

This is a man fueled by pure hatred and I, for one, will not stoke the fire by going to see one of his movies.

 

[foxfilm]

Thanks for keeping things lively, folks! (Sorry for the length, here, but ya'll have me fired up!)

MightyKrendall: You made me think. (Always painful.) And I thank you for it.

Regarding your statement: "He said that he's made it one his goals in life to make America more like Canada". Please help me understand. What exactly is bad about that? The lower crime rate? The health insurance for all? The clean countryside and cities? Stop me when I get to the worst thing...

Re: Shots at England. To the best of my knowledge he has only taken shots at obscenely wealthy and powerful people, American, English, and otherwise. Which are you? I'm wagering neither, just like me. He's fighting for us, brother.

Third: I would agree with you that Michael Moore is an angry man, but I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with saying he's "fueled by hatred".

Something that always comes back to me about Moore's body of work -- as well as his life, in many respects -- is that he has not only consistantly taken the side of the working class and the less powerful, but has literally saved people's lives in the process. I take it folks are familiar with the story of the cancer patient?

Does Michael Moore possibly hate the policies of the mostly white men in suits that have caused the country he loves to deteriorate in comparison with every other industrialized nation, in every measurable way -- from infant mortality rate to income disparity between richest and poorest, to percentage of population covered by health insurance, to life expectancy -- since the 1970's? Definitely, in my view.

And, unfortunately, even though I'm an admitted tree hugging pacifist in most ways, I find it difficult to get my brain around how "hating" a set of ideas that happen to be expressed through people who systematically disenfranchize the majority of people with their own greed, is a bad thing.

But then, I'm willing to share finite resources and space at a level that most successful, powerful white men aren't. (My grandfather would say that's because I'm neither successful, nor powerful, but that's another story.)

In short, MightyKrendall, Moore is stating factually sound information in a focussed attack that will make the world a better place for the average working stiff of ALL nations. If it takes a little anger along the way, so be it.

Dirty Sanchez: First, THANK YOU and KUDOS for actually providing links/citations. Anyone who wants to discuss this sort of thing seriously needs to be able to. Regarding factural accruracies in F911: Let's let Michael defend himself.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/mikeinthenews/index.php?id=48

For many more sources which promote Michael's progressive work, here's a site I've put together. (Looks like crap the the links work.) http://www.free-porn-vid.com/extreme_democracy/index.html

Finally, here, here, Jameswilling. (And you're right, I probably wouldn't pass a contemporary US security check. Got a master's degree, have taught at 3 universities, but I can't put my driving record in a safe and lock it under the guise of "national security".)

 

[foxfilm]

My bad, DC. I said that Moore was defending himself in the link. It's actually Bill Doskoch.

Here's an even more scrupulous and exacting review of one of Moore's detractors:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/f911facts/

A common occurrance with anti-F911 critics: They just plain don't get the facts correct and make attributions to the film that don't exist.

Sort of like Cheney saying things on videotape, then later saying he never said such a thing (see John Stewart's Daily Show), in reverse. Bushites say something, then lie and say they didn't. Many Moore datractors put words in his mouth that he must then PROVE were never said.

 

[SuzeVideo]

Dirty Sanchez, I would love to see what parts of the film you are saying aren't 100% true. The critics are having a horrid time debunking this movie because the facts he presents are there - they happened. If you could present to me the falsehoods in the film, I'd love to hear it, but from what I've read and what I know, all of Moore's points of contention are based on fact. Whether you agree with his point of view is entirely different. The arguments against moore are that he's bias and only showing one side, or likes to crack jokes, etc. but nobody has been able to say: that part about bush lying to the american public and the world to invade Iraq isn't 100% true - because it's fact. word.

 

[georges]

ok people some of you like michael moore but i don't.not only he manipulates and brainwashes people brains but he also acts as a shit stirrer (that is my opinion)
georges w bush was right to fight terrorism, clinton should have done it before but no this idiot didn't. so who i can blame are all the democrats during clinton's presidence who were not enough insistant to say let's fight terrorism and see if there are any terrorists in the usa.
michael moore is an antibush that is evident but michael moore is not a patriot because if he was a true patriot he would say let's fight terrorism by all means, he is just someone who has no respect for his country so he is a coward.there wer only two good democrat president roosevelt and kennedy.clinton is far away from them.
gwb fights terrrorism and according to a newsweek review an according to a voa review the deep america would vote gwb than kerry.why? because kerry hasn't a clear position about his program and also he has a weak character.kerry wasn't that brave in vietnam and i agree with some peoplewho talked about this before he didn't desserve his medals. period.i hate john ford kerry.

those are my thaughts on this subject.

regards

georges

 

[Goblin]

He doesn't support Terrorism. He just thinks Bush went about it the wrong way.

Moore is all for kicking terrorist butt, but he thinks that Bush screwed up in his procedures of going about it.

 

[georges]

He doesn't support Terrorism. He just thinks Bush went about it the wrong way.

Moore is all for kicking terrorist butt, but he thinks that Bush screwed up in his procedures of going about it.

diplomatic talks don't help with terrorists. killing terrorists is the only solution for having a peaceful world. si vis pacem parabellum(if you want peace prepare for war).

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Dirty Sanchez, I would love to see what parts of the film you are saying aren't 100% true. The critics are having a horrid time debunking this movie because the facts he presents are there - they happened. If you could present to me the falsehoods in the film, I'd love to hear it, but from what I've read and what I know, all of Moore's points of contention are based on fact. Whether you agree with his point of view is entirely different. The arguments against moore are that he's bias and only showing one side, or likes to crack jokes, etc. but nobody has been able to say: that part about bush lying to the american public and the world to invade Iraq isn't 100% true - because it's fact. word.

Very fine line in how and what you say is 100% true. As an example, you can say you are the smartest person in your house right now. That may be 100% true, but what you are leaving out is the fact that you are the only person in your house right now. See the difference?

I have not seen either one of Moore's films (although I do plan to, just once they are out of the theater), I'm just presenting web sites that are showing not everything Moore has presented as fact, is in reality untrue.

Georges said it best, he brainwashes and manipulates people. There are 3 sides to a story. Your version, my version, and the truth. Look at both sides before making judgement.

BTW, doing some reading about the history surrounding the events that lead to the making of the film Black Hawk Down. With all this talk about how many, many military personal and their families being against Bush's decision, its ironic how and why Moore has yet to make a "film" about the decisions Clinton made that lead to the death of many Americans in Somilia.

 

[Goblin]

Probably the same reason he doesn't make one about Watergate... Its old news.

It matters... but it isn't the most current or important at the moment.

 

[georges]

Very fine line in how and what you say is 100% true. As an example, you can say you are the smartest person in your house right now. That may be 100% true, but what you are leaving out is the fact that you are the only person in your house right now. See the difference?

I have not seen either one of Moore's films (although I do plan to, just once they are out of the theater), I'm just presenting web sites that are showing not everything Moore has presented as fact, is in reality untrue.

Georges said it best, he brainwashes and manipulates people. There are 3 sides to a story. Your version, my version, and the truth. Look at both sides before making judgement.

BTW, doing some reading about the history surrounding the events that lead to the making of the film Black Hawk Down. With all this talk about how many, many military personal and their families being against Bush's decision, its ironic how and why Moore has yet to make a "film" about the decisions Clinton made that lead to the death of many Americans in Somilia.

i have to agree with you dirty sanchez you have always to analyze what is said and what are the facts on that we agree.

regards

georges

 

[SuzeVideo]

OK, Dirty S. Good point. However the fact remains: bush and his cobal are a bunch of dirty fucking liars who misled the american public into supporting an unjust war. and now the blood of american soldiers are on thier hands...

as far as georges post about bush vs. clinton. bush is clearly a fuck up. clinton was a mild fuck up. but the fact is, both of the "monsters" (bin lauden and saddam) we're fighting today were created and financed by the regan administration in the 80's - most of those jokers are in the white house again...

it all makes me fucking nuts.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't more American's dying on the streets of LA, the in Iraq? Were is the outrage over that?

Any time you go to war, people are going to die. Thousands of people died in WWI and WWII as heros. These men dying now, are heros as well. They knew full well when they signed up for the Military, there was a chance they would fight, and lose their lives. Its sad, but it is reality. I doubt it is any easier for their families, but atleast we know about these men. There are many soliders who are killed on top secret missions, that we never actually hear about. 6 this way, half dozen the other. But, as was said earlier, without war, there will never be peace. War has a cost, and the lives lost can never be replaced. It shows how important our freedoms really are.

I rank Saddam right up there with Hitler. Both are evil men, who go against the values held by the people who have been given freedom. Was Bush more interested in the money him and his buddies could make off the oil, sure? But, do the people of Iraq now have the possibility of having a much better future without Saddam, of course.

These people like Bin Laden and Saddam have been around a long time, and Regan and Clinton did nothing about them. Bush is doing something about. You can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs. Yes, it is far more complicated then that, but at a time when Americans are dying for the freedom we seem to always take for granted, we should be looking for a solution, rather then blaming the past.

I am not an American, so I do not have a vote in the election this fall. However, does John Kerry have a perfect way of dealing with Iraq? The USA will always have it's haters, we just need to give the people the knowledge and tools to keep these people from hurting innocent human beings.

 

[georges]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't more American's dying on the streets of LA, the in Iraq? Were is the outrage over that?

Any time you go to war, people are going to die. Thousands of people died in WWI and WWII as heros. These men dying now, are heros as well. They knew full well when they signed up for the Military, there was a chance they would fight, and lose their lives. Its sad, but it is reality. I doubt it is any easier for their families, but atleast we know about these men. There are many soliders who are killed on top secret missions, that we never actually hear about. 6 this way, half dozen the other. But, as was said earlier, without war, there will never be peace. War has a cost, and the lives lost can never be replaced. It shows how important our freedoms really are.

I rank Saddam right up there with Hitler. Both are evil men, who go against the values held by the people who have been given freedom. Was Bush more interested in the money him and his buddies could make off the oil, sure? But, do the people of Iraq now have the possibility of having a much better future without Saddam, of course.

These people like Bin Laden and Saddam have been around a long time, and Regan and Clinton did nothing about them. Bush is doing something about. You can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs. Yes, it is far more complicated then that, but at a time when Americans are dying for the freedom we seem to always take for granted, we should be looking for a solution, rather then blaming the past.

I am not an American, so I do not have a vote in the election this fall. However, does John Kerry have a perfect way of dealing with Iraq? The USA will always have it's haters, we just need to give the people the knowledge and tools to keep these people from hurting innocent human beings.

this is a very brilliant and realistic post and reflexion:hatsoff::thumbsup:
i say really congrats to you dirty sanchez.

now i have something to say you jameswilling.if you don't fight by all means dictature, terrorism, integrism and other criminal form you will beaten and killed by it.just face the reality and stop acting like those pacifists who don't understand what is the real situation

regards

georges

 

[Goblin]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/michaelmoore.html

 

[Durty_Dog]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't more American's dying on the streets of LA, the in Iraq? Were is the outrage over that?

Any time you go to war, people are going to die. Thousands of people died in WWI and WWII as heros. These men dying now, are heros as well. They knew full well when they signed up for the Military, there was a chance they would fight, and lose their lives. Its sad, but it is reality. I doubt it is any easier for their families, but atleast we know about these men. There are many soliders who are killed on top secret missions, that we never actually hear about. 6 this way, half dozen the other. But, as was said earlier, without war, there will never be peace. War has a cost, and the lives lost can never be replaced. It shows how important our freedoms really are.

I rank Saddam right up there with Hitler. Both are evil men, who go against the values held by the people who have been given freedom. Was Bush more interested in the money him and his buddies could make off the oil, sure? But, do the people of Iraq now have the possibility of having a much better future without Saddam, of course.

These people like Bin Laden and Saddam have been around a long time, and Regan and Clinton did nothing about them. Bush is doing something about. You can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs. Yes, it is far more complicated then that, but at a time when Americans are dying for the freedom we seem to always take for granted, we should be looking for a solution, rather then blaming the past.

I am not an American, so I do not have a vote in the election this fall. However, does John Kerry have a perfect way of dealing with Iraq? The USA will always have it's haters, we just need to give the people the knowledge and tools to keep these people from hurting innocent human beings.

Even now Saddam is trying to dictate Iraq, i personally think he should be given the death penalty for the genocide and mass killings he has done, but then again i think it was wrong to go to war with Iraq to stop one dictator as there are several across the world, for instance in Zimbabwe or south Africa where white farmers are being killed by racist dictators in a similar style to Hitler, I dont think any country in the world fully understands and knows how to challenge this threat and the threat of terroism throughout the world, i also think that the CIA really dont know what they are doing at the moment, i'm studying the war at college now and find it hard to believe the lack of respect some people my age have on the 1st/2nd world war and i think the reason the world is like it is now is due to getting our wires crossed (the west and the east) and having different ideas of what knowledge is. On your point on America having it's haters Dirty Sanchez they do mainly because of jealousy, they also call us the small America (anti Americans), i used to live in Saudi Arabia for a year i was only really young but i remember hearing of these Phillipinos who lived near us and they had being executed for singing Christmas carols and dancing near a christmas tree on xmas day so dictatorships and terrorists have'nt suddenly appeared they have being manifesting for years.

 

[Durty_Dog]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/michaelmoore.html

Like the link Goblin. :glugglug:

 

[georges]

Like the link Goblin. :glugglug:

me too thanks goblin:hatsoff::thumbsup:yes michael moore is a pig in all the senses of the term.

 

[Goblin]

I like him... But I got a sense of humor too. LOL

To each their own. I hope you all enjoy though.

 

[foxfilm]

I agree with you DS, that one should look at all available information.

One last bit about Michael Moore "truth-vs-lies" and I'll shut up.

Moore Quote from 7/04:
"Every single fact I state in "Fahrenheit 9/11" is the absolute and irrefutable truth. This movie is perhaps the most thoroughly researched and vetted documentary of our time. "

"No fewer than a dozen people, including three teams of lawyers and the venerable one-time fact-checkers from The New Yorker went through this movie with a fine-tooth comb so that we can make this guarantee to you. Do not let anyone say this or that isn't true. If they say that, they are lying."

"Let them know that the OPINIONS in the film are mine, and anyone certainly has a right to disagree with them. And the questions I pose in the movie, based on these irrefutable facts, are also mine. And I have a right to ask them. And I will continue to ask them until they are answered."

From http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-07-04

Now consider, this movie is making more money than Star Wars. And it's changing minds with every showing. It's truely a force for the administration to be faced with, yet they haven't officially attacked it for it's factual accuracy. Only websites of dubious character and Republican owned broadcast and print have argued with it's facts.

Either they're being incompetent (again), or the administration has nothing on him, or else they'd let the air out of the balloon. Of course, I guess it is a conundrum for them. The movie hammers their guy, but it makes money...

Think Enron's criminal CEO Ken Lay will come out with a follow up expose? He was probably pretty upset when George II denied knowing him after he was the largest contributor to the Bush political fortunes. He could get back at George, do something weasely, AND make a ton of money! Right up his ally!

Re: THE WAR ON TERROR

Georges, et. al., I love you like a human, but I hope you don't own firearms.

It takes no courage whatsoever to send others off to die for you. The courage is in staying strong and looking danger in the eye yourself, and asking "Why it is these people supposedly hate us so much?"

They don't hate everyday folks, by the way. And they sure as hell aren't "jealous", Durty_Dog. (Not to be flippant, but may I ask where you go to school? I've taught at 3 universities and I can't imagine any college professor pushing such an egotistical motivation for why people are willing to die. What, they wish they had cable so bad they blow themselves up?)

They hate the guys with ties who are trying to steal their resources and opportunities at self rule. They don't have it now, by a long shot, and don't believe they're ever going to get it. And frankly, I'm not so sure that I blame them. "The Ties" are not true citizens of any country, just money grubbing elites whose only real allegiance is to cash and thier own tight circle.

What if we weren't in the Middle East right now. Think your corner grocery store would blow up? That's paranoia and I'm brave enough to call their bluff to save a few thousand American soldeirs sent to fight under false pretenses with no exit strategy along with countless Iraqi civilians. Are you?

On 911 we lost less than 5,000 Americans. No small number, but the odds of you being killed by a drunk driver are dramatically higher than the odds that Muhammad will strike your cul de sac. Most tragically, our casualties pale by comparison to the Iraqi and Afghani losses, the vast majority of whom have been civilians.

It's the kind of disproportionate, immoral warfare our (American) leaders pioneered in WWII, and only got more ruthless at through Viet Nam. (Don't take my word for it, take John MacNamara's, one of the most powerful and connected policy advisors of the 20th century, author of the firebombing technique that leveled most of Japan before we even dropped the nuclear bombs, and the secretary of defense during the early Viet Nam years. Here's a link to his filmed memoirs.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317910/)

If we were just a little braver as a nation our soldiers wouldn't have to die.

And DS: "Without war there will never be peace". What does that mean? When does the war stop? So I guess if I want total peace and tranquility I have to have a REALLY BIG war? Kind of makes sense. You don't have true peace until everyone but you is dead.

Bottom line, if you tell me you're a soldier on the line in this mess, my heart and my deepest respect goes out to you.

But I have little respect for warmongers who cheerlead from the sidelines.

If you think war is the answer, get in the fight, they're looking for volunteers. Or better yet, please help the rest of us try to restore sanity to the planet before we all end up losers.

Peace, health, and prosperity.