Michael Moore

Brino

Banned
georges said:
Marijuana is dangerous because it affects brain cells.Not many people want to pay for some drugged fools in order to get them in good health.

But Alcohol and Tobacco are more dangerous and their both legal! So why not marijuana!?

Socialized health care means paying for the other, it is no and no:nono: Will the other pay for me when i need it ? Hellfuck no.In France, i pay for my own head and i get a big part of the amount i spent for all what concerns visit to the doc, medicaments or whatever related to health reimbursed.It is my money and i busted my @ss for earning it so why should i pay for the others?

Because their paying for you too! Free Healthcare means you too! If there was freehealthcare you would also not need to pay for your own healthcare! It's as simple as that and the amount of extra money you would need to pay would be minimal!

Guns rights.Are my family members in the us are members of the nra. Clinton aw ban thankfully expires. THe police will not always be there to protect you.The main problems comes from illegal owned weapons often baught by ghetto guys, bullies, scumbags and drug dealers.I don't see a problem of owning legally a galil or an m16 as defense weapons.Plus people who own them legally often shoot at range with them.Forbidding people to buy aw and shooting them will not solve the problem.

They dont need them! You dont need a weapon that shoots 300 bullets a minute to defend yourself! Period! You dont need a weapon that shoots 300 bullets a minute to hunt deer! Period! And you dont need a weapon that shoots 300 bullets a minute to do ranged shooting! Even the olympic ranged shooters dont use assault weapons! 2/3 of Americans support the ban and it shouldnt have expired!

Taxation. Some people have talents are actors, other create their own firms, other make high studies in order to siucced well after.People busted their asses hard for having this situation.
If some people are dunces at school, then it is not my fucking problem.It is either they are lazy or either they are unable for higher studies. Some people who aren't ceos, succeed well like mechanics, car dealers,plumers, electricians, policemen, military and other administrative jobs.

But those mechanics, etc. are the ones paying the higher taxes when the Ceos get all the taxbreaks! You act like only people who make lots of money work hard when that's just not true! There are alot of people and I mean alot of people who work hard yet arent rich! They are the ones having to pay high taxes because these rich greedy people who have more than enough money are the ones receiving all the taxbreaks! It's not right when the rich get richer and the poor get poorer because of taxes!

Sorry for the off topic.There were a lot of dead among the usaf, usnavy and usmc pilots in vietnam.

Yeah but Bush didnt fly in Vietnam!
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
Brino said:
I'm smart enough not to fall for it, georges on the other hand.......

You don't know me well enough so conclusion shut up, clear.You are so childish sometimes.
Who started to back up Moore, describe Bush as evil and always posting childish funny pics? You .So obviously you aren't smart enough.I don't need Michael Moore for telling me who I need to vote or support.
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
Brino said:
Dont you get it! They believe he's dishonest because you keep lying in saying that he's dishonest when he's not! You do that all the time, You did it with McCain, you did it with Clinton, You did it with everybody you ran against because you had nothing else to run on! It's bullshit!

He is dishonest . Because after he came back to teh us he made a campaign against vietnam war is that a proof of honesty? No it is a proof of being a coward and being aginst your governement.
If you think that a lot of people like Mc Cain then you are wrong.
Clinton didn't do nothing the wtc was attacked the first time in 1996.Don't tell me that he did something because it is false.
You portray your Kerry as hero, something he isn't so you are lying.We all know that kerry voted against acquisition of latest weapons when he was a senator and he wanted to fuck up the army.
Conclusion you say bs
A small bonus concerning your beloved kerry

Who knows if this is true, but since its out, it's important to find out for sure.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132405,00.html

Vietnam Vet: I Lied About Atrocities
Wednesday, September 15, 2004

WASHINGTON — A veteran who testified to John Kerry (search) about atrocities he committed in the Vietnam War (search) is now claiming that the Democratic presidential candidate coerced him to tell tales.

Steven Pitkin, an Army combat veteran, told FOX News that Kerry coached him and others to say they had witnessed war crimes, even after Pitkin told Kerry that he had not.

"Before they started the camera, they told me, 'We need you to speak about the atrocities that happened over there.' The whole company line that I initially came out and said, I was coached to say that over and over again," Pitkin said.

Kerry's former brother-in-law, David Thorne, attended that Winter Soldier investigation, in which more than 100 Vietnam veterans told anti-war activists that they had either committed or witnessed unspeakable war crimes. Thorne flatly denied Pitkin's charges.

"Kerry never forced anyone to testify to war crimes in any way. [Kerry] went to Winter Soldier to listen to what they had to say and to investigate for himself," Thorne said.

Kerry collected the testimony ahead of his appearance during a 1971 hearing in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on widespread atrocities against Vietnamese civilians. He has said the graphic testimony he gave was merely a repetition of testimony combat veterans told him.
 
Why you don't stop talking about Vietnam... oh wait, i know why... because there's nothing else to talk about, Bush have done nothing in the last four years to get reelected !

Georges, stop crying about all the jokes and funny pictures we post about your very good friend GWB, i'm pretty that you were laughing real hard when people were making jokes about Clinton and Lewinsky, so stop blasting us for doing the same. Crybaby.

Just to add fuel to the fire, here's a site with Bushisms... a lot of them ! http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushisms.htm :D

:D
 

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georges

Moderator
Staff member
Brino said:
But Alcohol and Tobacco are more dangerous and their both legal! So why not marijuana!?

Because their paying for you too! Free Healthcare means you too! If there was freehealthcare you would also not need to pay for your own healthcare! It's as simple as that and the amount of extra money you would need to pay would be minimal!

They dont need them! You dont need a weapon that shoots 300 bullets a minute to defend yourself! Period! You dont need a weapon that shoots 300 bullets a minute to hunt deer! Period! And you dont need a weapon that shoots 300 bullets a minute to do ranged shooting! Even the olympic ranged shooters dont use assault weapons! 2/3 of Americans support the ban and it shouldnt have expired!

But those mechanics, etc. are the ones paying the higher taxes when the Ceos get all the taxbreaks! You act like only people who make lots of money work hard when that's just not true! There are alot of people and I mean alot of people who work hard yet arent rich! They are the ones having to pay high taxes because these rich greedy people who have more than enough money are the ones receiving all the taxbreaks! It's not right when the rich get richer and the poor get poorer because of taxes!

Yeah but Bush didnt fly in Vietnam!

Paying for keeping drugged idiots in good health, no way.

I am working and i pay taxes to my government. The system in France reimburses the healthcare costs to people who work.I pay for my ownself it is my money not others money.

THe problem is the weapons stolen by the ghetto guys, teh scumbags and teh drug dealers.In the early 1990 in california there were always drive by shooting opposing the bloods and the crips, they caused so much deaths that because of them there was an assault weapon ban.
What will you do for defending you home if five ghetto guys wanted to steal it and probably kill you?Calling the police ?The police can't always be there.A handgun wouldn't be enough sufficient.The solution is the assault rifle. I won't cry five ghetto guys knowing that they want to steal my house and kill my family. Thanks fully the ban expires.

Some mechanics and car dealers have a good wage look at some car dealers on teh hemmings.com or carsonline.net you will see that they make good money by selling very after saught cars. Some people were too lazy at school others didn't continue their studies so they have a low payed job.
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
bigdan1110 said:
Why you don't stop talking about Vietnam... oh wait, i know why... because there's nothing else to talk about, Bush have done nothing in the last four years to get reelected !

Georges, stop crying about all the jokes and funny pictures we post about your very good friend GWB, i'm pretty that you were laughing real hard when people were making jokes about Clinton and Lewinsky, so stop blasting us for doing the same. Crybaby.

Just to add fuel to the fire, here's a site with Bushisms... a lot of them ! http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushisms.htm :D

[Please Note: the attachement in this post will show up as soon as it has been reviewed and approved by a moderator!]:D

look at your country and see how it the situation, i don't know if it is a conservative or democrat who runs your country but fact that canada isn't going so well.

Crybaby, stop whining will you.
I am not laughing about Clinton.His unability to catch Osama during the first wtc bombing as well as the way he has fucked up the us army in somalia make me hate him more. His stupid aw ban thanksfully expires.

I know that you wouldn't like to see Bush reelected as well many people here but what will you do if Bush is reelected?You will have to deal with it.
 
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georges said:
look at your country and see how it the situation, i don't know if it is a conservative or democrat who runs your country but fact that canada isn't going so well.

Crybaby, stop whining will you.
I am not laughing about Clinton.His unability to catch Osama during the first wtc bombing as well as the way he has fucked up the us army in somalia make me hate him more. His stupid aw ban thanksfully expires.

I know that you wouldn't like to see Bush reelected as well many people here but what will you do if Bush is reelected?You will have to deal with it.

Well, my dear Georges, if you must know we dont have republican and democrats in our country, we have actually four different party, and we just had election this year, we have a prime minister here, is name, Paul Martin, and guess what, i did'nt vote for him. But i don't want to embarass you with canadian politics, you seem to know so much about it already ! (sarcasm)

Guess what Georges, we can't buy assault weapon in Canada, and you know what, the isn't overun with criminals, in fact we have one of the lowest crime rate in the world... I think i will just stop talking to you, because you've got your head so far GWB ass that you can't understand any other point of view !
 

Brino

Banned
georges said:
You don't know me well enough so conclusion shut up, clear.You are so childish sometimes.
Who started to back up Moore, describe Bush as evil and always posting childish funny pics? You .So obviously you aren't smart enough.I don't need Michael Moore for telling me who I need to vote or support.

Having a sense of Humor isnt childish! Not having a sense of humor on the other hand........ :rofl:
 

Brino

Banned
georges said:
He is dishonest . Because after he came back to teh us he made a campaign against vietnam war is that a proof of honesty? No it is a proof of being a coward and being aginst your governement.
If you think that a lot of people like Mc Cain then you are wrong.
Clinton didn't do nothing the wtc was attacked the first time in 1996.Don't tell me that he did something because it is false.
You portray your Kerry as hero, something he isn't so you are lying.We all know that kerry voted against acquisition of latest weapons when he was a senator and he wanted to fuck up the army.
Conclusion you say bs
A small bonus concerning your beloved kerry

Who knows if this is true, but since its out, it's important to find out for sure.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132405,00.html

Vietnam Vet: I Lied About Atrocities
Wednesday, September 15, 2004

WASHINGTON — A veteran who testified to John Kerry (search) about atrocities he committed in the Vietnam War (search) is now claiming that the Democratic presidential candidate coerced him to tell tales.

Steven Pitkin, an Army combat veteran, told FOX News that Kerry coached him and others to say they had witnessed war crimes, even after Pitkin told Kerry that he had not.

"Before they started the camera, they told me, 'We need you to speak about the atrocities that happened over there.' The whole company line that I initially came out and said, I was coached to say that over and over again," Pitkin said.

Kerry's former brother-in-law, David Thorne, attended that Winter Soldier investigation, in which more than 100 Vietnam veterans told anti-war activists that they had either committed or witnessed unspeakable war crimes. Thorne flatly denied Pitkin's charges.

"Kerry never forced anyone to testify to war crimes in any way. [Kerry] went to Winter Soldier to listen to what they had to say and to investigate for himself," Thorne said.

Kerry collected the testimony ahead of his appearance during a 1971 hearing in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on widespread atrocities against Vietnamese civilians. He has said the graphic testimony he gave was merely a repetition of testimony combat veterans told him.

It's funny that you talk about Kerry but what about Bush! Bush was a coward becauase he got his father to get him into the guard instead of going to Vietnam! Furthur more he didnt even fulfill his guard duties because he thought he was better than them! Conclusion: Coward and an Snob!

And about Kerry voting against weapons, Cheney voted against the same weapons! Plus Kerry hasnt voted against weapon systems since 1996!

See: http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?DocID=147
 

Brino

Banned
georges said:
Paying for keeping drugged idiots in good health, no way.

Paying!? Who said you had to pay for anything? You dont have to pay for Marijuana being legal!

I am working and i pay taxes to my government. The system in France reimburses the healthcare costs to people who work.I pay for my ownself it is my money not others money.

So you want to live in a dog eat dog world! As long as I'm ok then fuck everybody else! That's hateful elitist bullshit!

THe problem is the weapons stolen by the ghetto guys, teh scumbags and teh drug dealers.In the early 1990 in california there were always drive by shooting opposing the bloods and the crips, they caused so much deaths that because of them there was an assault weapon ban.
What will you do for defending you home if five ghetto guys wanted to steal it and probably kill you?Calling the police ?The police can't always be there.A handgun wouldn't be enough sufficient.The solution is the assault rifle. I won't cry five ghetto guys knowing that they want to steal my house and kill my family. Thanks fully the ban expires.

And now the criminals dont have to steal the weapons because they can get them legally! Assault weapons are overkill! Even if, and that's a big if, a gang broke into your house you can scare them off with a handgun, plus when the neighbors hear the shots they'll call the police and the cops will be there in 2 minutes! But in the end none of that will happen because the chances of a gang breaking into your home is extremely unlikely! There is no need for the average citizen to have an assault weapon, period!

Some mechanics and car dealers have a good wage look at some car dealers on teh hemmings.com or carsonline.net you will see that they make good money by selling very after saught cars. Some people were too lazy at school others didn't continue their studies so they have a low payed job.

Your getting offtopic again! only one percent of the american population makes more than 200,000 a year! That means that 99% of the population will receive higher taxes while barely able to feed their family! And their not lazy, I dont care what your twisted logic says but 99% of the population isnt going to be lazy! That's just bullshit!
 
I have been reading in George's posts that he has a lot of critizism against the welfare state, only based on prejudice, and no facts to back up his claims, so here I have some facts to prove how wrong Georges are.
_____________________________

Welfare states

There are three main interpretations of the idea of a "welfare state".

In the first, a welfare state is an ideal model in which the government assumes the primary responsibility for the individual and social welfare of its citizens.

Secondly, the term is used for the provision of welfare services by the state.

Third, welfare states may be identified with general systems of social protection.

In many "welfare states" welfare is not provided by the state at all, but by a combination of independent, voluntary and government services.

Critics of the welfare state in the US claim it makes citizens lazy and less inclined to work. This is unsupported by the economic evidence; there is no association between economic performance and welfare expenditure in developed countries. (See A B Atkinson, Incomes and the Welfare State, Cambridge University Press 1995.)

The Welfare State idea is also criticized as not much bang for the buck, however others point to counterexamples that may suggest otherwise. R Goodin et al, The Real Worlds of Welfare Capitalism (Cambridge University Press, 2000) show that on major economic and social indicators, the USA performs worse than the Netherlands, which has a high commitment to welfare provision.

The Welfare State is accused of resulting in high taxes in places like Denmark (Tax level of 50.4% of the GNP in 2002) and Sweden (Tax level of 50.3% of the GNP in 2002). Some do, but these countries also have high wage economies and high GNPs; high taxes do not imply poor economic performance.

Critics of the welfare state also argue that these government services are in fact inefficient and thus expensive, by contrast with nations with less welfare like the USA. In fact, the US system is substantially more expensive, especially in health care, because of its organisational diversity and heavy administrative costs. National systems like the UK National Health Service are proportionately cheaper, and have better coverage, than market-based systems.

The OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) produces international statistics on health care - http://www.oecd.org

Examples of welfare states:
  • United Kingdom: the Welfare State
  • Germany: the Social Market
  • France: Solidarity and insertion
  • Sweden: the Institutional-Redistributive model
  • Finland: social democratic welfare
  • Australia
  • Norway
 
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Originally posted by Starman
The OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) produces international statistics on health care - http://www.oecd.org
The text on the web site is available on both English and French. Check the upper right corner.
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
bigdan1110 said:
Guess what Georges, we can't buy assault weapon in Canada, and you know what, the isn't overun with criminals, in fact we have one of the lowest crime rate in the world... I think i will just stop talking to you, because you've got your head so far GWB ass that you can't understand any other point of view !

I knew that.No i am just a republican.I understand your point of view. Don't say that understand other point of views because i understand them very well.So spreading your bs
Maybe you have your head so far in john forbes kerry @ss that you see only the democrat logic as a good one.
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
Brino said:
Having a sense of Humor isnt childish! Not having a sense of humor on the other hand........ :rofl:

Depends of which humor, and if you think that sarcasm is a so good thing then you are mistaken.
I don't mix humor and sarcasm is trying to mock the person.I don't like this way of joking very much.
 
georges said:
I knew that.No i am just a republican.I understand your point of view. Don't say that understand other point of views because i understand them very well.So spreading your bs
Maybe you have your head so far in john forbes kerry @ss that you see only the democrat logic as a good one.

No i'm not, because i'm not really for Kerry, i'm against Bush, they could put a robot againt Bush and i would vote for the robot, i just want him gone because incompetence should'nt be rewarded.

I'm curious to know why you did'nt answer to Starman reply... :dunno:
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
Brino said:
It's funny that you talk about Kerry but what about Bush! Bush was a coward becauase he got his father to get him into the guard instead of going to Vietnam! Furthur more he didnt even fulfill his guard duties because he thought he was better than them! Conclusion: Coward and an Snob!

And about Kerry voting against weapons, Cheney voted against the same weapons! Plus Kerry hasnt voted against weapon systems since 1996!

See: http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?DocID=147
Wow, now all of you Moore supporters can see how you've been mislead.

http://s88251339.onlinehome.us/smartercop/archives/002017.html

and more about kerry and his way of making politics
A Moderate approach works when both sides WANT a moderate approach. Unfortunately, extremists will not eal in moderate approaches. This is how, under Clinton's Agreed Framework deal with North Korea, we "agreed" that NK could pursue nuclear power, but not nuclear weapons. In return, we would help with money and manpower to produce safe modern nuclear powerplants for them. Now lookat NK. they have nuclear weapons.

Being "non-confrontational" with Iran apparently means not raising troubling matters, such as Iran's ongoing support for terrorism. In outlining his proposed "grand bargain" with the Iranian government, Edwards completely ignored the fact that a number of senior ranking al Qaeda officials now live and operate in Iran under the Iranian government's protection. Richard Clarke has stated that he regards the connection between Iran and al Qaeda as very dangerous. Yet John Edwards does not insist that his "grand bargain" must include a promise by Iran to cut off all ties with al Qaeda and to turn over those al Qaeda operatives on Iranian soil. Undoubtedly, this is all part of Kerry's and Edwards's strategy for waging a "more sensitive" war on global terrorism.
Kerry and Edwards believe the failed policies of the 1990s remain suitable to the post-September 11 era.
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
Avoiding Genocid: The right to bear arms could have saved Sudan.
By Dave Kopel, Paul Gallant, & Joanne Eisen
[T]he sovereign territorial state claims, as an integral part of its sovereignty, the right to commit genocide, or engage in genocidal massacres, against peoples under its rule, and...the United Nations, for all practical purposes, defends this right. To be sure, no state explicitly claims the right to commit genocide — this would not be morally acceptable even in international circles — but the right is exercised under other more acceptable rubrics.... — Leo Kuper, Genocide: Its Political Use in the Twentieth Century
On July 22, 2004, both houses of Congress upped the ante in Darfur, Sudan, by calling the situation there genocide instead of "ethnic cleansing." That legal change in terminology was inspired by the 1948 U.N. Convention on Genocide, in which all the signatories promise to prevent and punish the crime of genocide. The definition of "genocide" was very tightly written. According to Matthew Lippman ("A Road Map to the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide," Journal of Genocide Research, 2002), "measures directed towards forcing members of a group to abandon their homes in order to escape ill-treatment" — what we now know as ethnic cleansing — is not considered genocide according to the U.N. definition. For months, the world has bickered over what to call the situation in Darfur. According to Article 8 of the U.N. Convention: "Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide..." The U.S., which signed and ratified the Genocide Convention, is a "Contracting Party," and has forced the world to accept the fact that another genocide is taking place. If the U.N. follows its own laws, it must now intervene on the side of the victims. But the world's governments cannot agree on an effective remedy. At the heart of the U.N.'s failure is a grave misunderstanding of national sovereignty: the notion that "sovereignty" belongs to the government, not the people. And this mistaken notion of sovereignty precludes consideration of one of most effective ways to prevent genocide: arming the victims.
TOO LATE — AGAIN
As the U.N. Security Council tried to craft language every government could support, the threat of sanctions against Sudan was dropped. The final resolution that passed the Security Council on July 30, 2004, included an arms embargo. Notwithstanding the practical difficulties of imposing a successful embargo, such a policy is too late. As many as 50,000 people have been killed, and more will probably starve to death. Livestock and food have been destroyed; the dead animals have been used to poison the wells, and trees have been uprooted. Rape is used as an instrument of warfare, and, because of the Islamic culture of Darfur, it has irrevocably destroyed many families. Fifteen-year-old Aziza recalled: "Five of them raped me twice...they were armed...I am still in pain." The situation continues to deteriorate. Even if all hostilities ceased at this very moment, if all weapons were destroyed, if all aid groups could bring all the necessary food, water, and medical supplies into the refugee camps — even if it were safe for the refugees to return home — during the months that the world diddled, the culture of Darfur has been demolished. There is no going back. Despite all the platitudes about "never again," the world did let it happen — again.
ARMED RESISTANCE
Sudan is the largest country in Africa, over four times the size of Alaska. Its capital is Khartoum, and it shares its northern border and the Nile River with Egypt. Sudan became independent from the U.K. in 1956. Darfur, about the size of France, is situated in the western part and shares a border with Chad. Islamist Arabs run Sudan; Sudanese Arab nomads have been persecuting the black Muslims of Darfur, who are mostly farmers. Because of the scarcity of natural resources, and desertification in the area caused by two decades of drought and poor land management, the Arab tribesmen have, in the last few years, invaded the farming communities. Two self-defense forces arose among the black population: the SLA (Sudan Liberation Army) and the JEM (Justice and Equality Movement). Although it is very difficult for ordinary citizens to obtain firearms legally, the black self-defense groups were able to procure black-market arms, and therefore were able to protect the farming communities.
In mid-2003, the Sudanese government began to arm the Arab Janjaweed militias. Although the government claims to deplore the Arabs' war on the blacks, the government has assisted the Arabs by bombing black villages and by allowing the Janjaweed to attack the blacks at will. Approximately 100,000 refugees have been forced into Chad, and it is estimated that about one million people have been displaced internally. The destruction of black society in Darfur has made it difficult for the populace to protect and provision the self-defense groups. So the refugee camps are vulnerable and unarmed, and cannot fill basic human needs, including food and water. And the camps are guarded by the Arab Janjaweed, the very people who caused the refugee crisis in the first place. The pattern of arming Khartoum's allies began decades ago when, during the civil war against blacks in southern Sudan, the Khartoum government gave arms to the Arab militias and attempted to disarm the Christians and Animists. According to Douglas H. Johnson, the central government waged war through surrogates, so as to maintain plausible deniability. The policy continues today in Darfur.
INTERNATIONAL IMPOTENCE
The rainy season now makes roads nearly impassable, so supplies must be airlifted in. A lack of sufficient sanitation is expected to make the refugee camps breeding grounds for cholera, malaria, and dysentery. With the refugees already weakened from their ordeals, their resistance to potentially fatal diseases will be low. And while genocide includes outright murder by machete, gas, or bullet, it also includes techniques such as those used by the Turks against the Armenians, and those Pol Pot used against the Cambodians: forced migration without supplies. Genocide can be accomplished by ensuring debilitation, starvation, and disease — as it is now in Sudan. And as it denies complicity in this genocide-in-progress, the government in Khartoum continues its delaying tactics and has threatened the nations attempting to save lives.
For example, the BBC News reported that Sudan's military called the U.N. resolution "a declaration of war." The BBC also observed a placard at a public demonstration that stated, "Darfur will be a foreign graveyard."
According to the July 9, 2004, New York Times, Sudan's Foreign Minister Mustafa Osman Ismail warned: "The American and British voices that call for the imposition of sanctions on Sudan are those that dragged the world into the Iraq problem.... I hope that they will not drag the world into a new problem from which it will be difficult to extricate itself and that is the problem of Darfur."
Recently, the Arab League passed a resolution declaring its support for Khartoum, apparently under the principle that the mass murder of Muslims is not a problem when an Arab tyranny is doing the killing. Sudan's junior foreign minister, Najuid al-Khair Abdul Wahab, explained: "We regard this...[as] a violation of our country's national sovereignty."

For years, the U.N. has been attempting to promote the notion of a rapid-reaction constabulary force responsible only to itself — which would be triggered by warnings from genocide scholars, who are presently studying the early warning signs of impending genocide. But genocide scholar Donald Krumm described "the paralysis induced by sovereignty.... This is the fundamental difficulty to be overcome. Actions based on early warning generally would require interventions inside another nation-state, which the United Nations and its member states are loath to do." As late as June 30, 2004, the BBC News reported that "U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan refused to use the term genocide, which would carry a legal obligation to act."
Krumm's prediction was correct. The international threats, warnings, and admonitions have accomplished almost nothing. Furthermore, Sudan has rejected proposals for 2,000 soldiers to be supplied by the African Union. U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell has talked tough, but there is no force to back up his words. According to the BBC News, "Analysts say that 15-20,000 troops would be needed to secure Darfur and no one is talking about sending anything like that number."
The U.N. remains impotent against genocide.
DISARMED, THEN ABANDONED
If genocide is to be averted, it is essential to understand that once a victim population has been disarmed, those victims require protectors. If the protectors are absent or refuse to act, then the killing continues — as when the French garrison abandoned 20,000 Armenians in February 1920, and when U.N. forces stood idle in Srebrenica and Rwanda. In Rwanda, U.N. personnel knew that the victim group had been previously disarmed by laws enacted in 1964 and 1979. Early in the genocide, thousands of Rwandan civilians gathered in places where U.N. troops were stationed. The Rwandans believed the U.N.'s promise that its troops would protect them. If Rwandans had known that the U.N. troops would withdraw, the Rwandans would have fled, and some might have survived. According to the Report of the Independent Inquiry into the Actions of the United Nations During the 1994 Genocide in Rwanda: "The manner in which troops left, including attempts to pretend to the refugees that they were not, in fact, leaving, was disgraceful."
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
The victims were slaughtered.

Sometimes genocide against disarmed victims ends when another nation invades, for the invader's own interests, as when the Allies invaded Germany, when Vietnam invaded Cambodia, or when Tanzania — defending itself against incursions by Uganda's military — invaded Uganda and overthrew Idi Amin.

Unlike Hitler, Pol Pot, and Idi Amin, however, the genocidal regime in Sudan has been careful not to violate any other nation's sovereignty. Accordingly, the international community is, in practice, respecting the "sovereign" power of Sudan's dictatorship to perpetrate domestic genocide.

According to provision (1) of Article 25 of the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights, adopted on December 10, 1948: "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing, and medical care." But in Darfur, the government has been complicit in depriving its citizens of these basic necessities.



THE FIFTH AUXILIARY RIGHT
The Darfur genocide is more proof that the human rights ostensibly guaranteed by U.N. documents often disappear when the people are disarmed, and are thereby unable to prevent a tyranny from usurping their sovereignty. As the American Founders recognized, political power often does grow out of the barrel of a gun. If you are disarmed, you are at the mercy of an armed government.

In Sudan, it is virtually impossible for an average citizen to lawfully acquire and possess the means for self-defense. According to gun-control statutes, a gun licensee must be over 30 years of age, must have a specified social and economic status, and must be examined physically by a doctor. Females have even more difficulty meeting these requirements because of social and occupational limitations.

When these restrictions are finally overcome, there are additional restrictions on the amount of ammunition one may possess, making it nearly impossible for a law-abiding gun owner to achieve proficiency with firearms. A handgun owner, for example, can only purchase 15 rounds of ammunition a year. The penalties for violation of Sudan's firearms laws are severe, and can include capital punishment.

International gun-control groups complain that Sudan's gun laws are not strict enough — but the real problem with the laws is that they can be enforced arbitrarily. The government can refuse gun permits to the victims in Darfur and execute anyone who obtains a self-defense gun. Meanwhile, the Arab militias can obtain guns with government approval, or the government can simply ignore illegal gun possession by Arabs.

The blacks in Sudan therefore face a situation somewhat like that of blacks in the 19th-century American south. There, ostensibly neutral gun-control laws were enforced vigorously against blacks, amounting to de facto prohibition. Meanwhile, the governments of the post-bellum south allowed the terrorist KKK to arm with impunity, and the Sudanese government does the same for Arab terrorist militias. The result: second-class citizenship for American blacks, and genocide for Sudanese blacks.

The solution to the worldwide violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is the worldwide recognition of one more human right. As the great English jurist William Blackstone explained, core human rights would be "the dead letter of the laws" if not guarded by "auxiliary rights." So the law "has therefore established certain other auxiliary subordinate rights of the subject, which serve principally as barriers to protect and maintain inviolate the three great and primary rights, of personal security, personal liberty, and private property."

Thus, "The fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject...is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute ...and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression."

The Darfur genocide — like the genocides in Rwanda, Srebrenica, Cambodia, and so many other nations in the last century — was made possible only by the prior destruction of that fifth auxiliary right.

It is long past time for the United Nations and the rest of the international community to do more than bemoan genocide after the fact. It is time for formal international law to recognize the natural right of self-defense, and to acknowledge the universal human right of "having arms for their defense" so that, as a last resort, victims can "restrain the violence of oppression." As history has shown, as long as dictatorships exist, the only way to ensure the primary right to life is to guarantee the auxiliary right to arms.

— Dave Kopel is research director, and Paul Gallant and Joanne Eisen are senior fellows, at the Independence Institute. Their most recent academic publication is "Firearms Possession by Non-State Actors: The Question of Sovereignty."

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/kopel_gallant_eisen200408180824.asp
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
Brino said:
1)Paying!? Who said you had to pay for anything? You dont have to pay for Marijuana being legal!



2)So you want to live in a dog eat dog world! As long as I'm ok then fuck everybody else! That's hateful elitist bullshit!



3)And now the criminals dont have to steal the weapons because they can get them legally! Assault weapons are overkill! Even if, and that's a big if, a gang broke into your house you can scare them off with a handgun, plus when the neighbors hear the shots they'll call the police and the cops will be there in 2 minutes! But in the end none of that will happen because the chances of a gang breaking into your home is extremely unlikely! There is no need for the average citizen to have an assault weapon, period!



4)Your getting offtopic again! only one percent of the american population makes more than 200,000 a year! That means that 99% of the population will receive higher taxes while barely able to feed their family! And their not lazy, I dont care what your twisted logic says but 99% of the population isnt going to be lazy! That's just bullshit!

1)You Misundrestood me. I said paying for keeping drugged people in good health so it is no for legalizing marijuana because we will have pay to for the healthcare of some drugged dumb@sses

2)why not being responsible for your ownself. do you think everyone will pay money for you all your life? you dream.

3) police isn't the swat and they can't be here all the time. You told some time ago that one person was shot near your school.If the school is located is an unsafe place where the scum lives then i understand why you are against aw.
but that doesn't change the fact that some people are for the right to buy aw because they like shooting weapons at range. Police can't always be there.For self defense i don't see the rpoblem of owning an aw unless you are pacifist or afraid of guns.

4) where did you get that percentage?
Have you got something official to back it up? How do you know that not so many people earn so much money?
Do you honestely think that people who have a lower wage than 200000$ don't live happy?THat is bs.Me twisted no:nono:You always said what i din't say.
How many people are working after finishing their studies?Have you ever asked yourself the question? How many people who have finished their studies have a low wage? Ask this questions yourself and stop thinking that everyone can't succeed in their life.
 
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georges

Moderator
Staff member
Starman said:
I have been reading in George's posts that he has a lot of critizism against the welfare state, only based on prejudice, and no facts to back up his claims, so here I have some facts to prove how wrong Georges are.
_____________________________

Welfare states

There are three main interpretations of the idea of a "welfare state".

In the first, a welfare state is an ideal model in which the government assumes the primary responsibility for the individual and social welfare of its citizens.

Secondly, the term is used for the provision of welfare services by the state.

Third, welfare states may be identified with general systems of social protection.

In many "welfare states" welfare is not provided by the state at all, but by a combination of independent, voluntary and government services.

Critics of the welfare state in the US claim it makes citizens lazy and less inclined to work. This is unsupported by the economic evidence; there is no association between economic performance and welfare expenditure in developed countries. (See A B Atkinson, Incomes and the Welfare State, Cambridge University Press 1995.)

The Welfare State idea is also criticized as not much bang for the buck, however others point to counterexamples that may suggest otherwise. R Goodin et al, The Real Worlds of Welfare Capitalism (Cambridge University Press, 2000) show that on major economic and social indicators, the USA performs worse than the Netherlands, which has a high commitment to welfare provision.

The Welfare State is accused of resulting in high taxes in places like Denmark (Tax level of 50.4% of the GNP in 2002) and Sweden (Tax level of 50.3% of the GNP in 2002). Some do, but these countries also have high wage economies and high GNPs; high taxes do not imply poor economic performance.

Critics of the welfare state also argue that these government services are in fact inefficient and thus expensive, by contrast with nations with less welfare like the USA. In fact, the US system is substantially more expensive, especially in health care, because of its organisational diversity and heavy administrative costs. National systems like the UK National Health Service are proportionately cheaper, and have better coverage, than market-based systems.

The OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) produces international statistics on health care - http://www.oecd.org

Examples of welfare states:
  • United Kingdom: the Welfare State
  • Germany: the Social Market
  • France: Solidarity and insertion
  • Sweden: the Institutional-Redistributive model
  • Finland: social democratic welfare
  • Australia
  • Norway


The situation changes in France wit Chirac's goivernment decision. I am not sure things will last that long. In France the healthcare system becomes step by step privatized. Costs of healthcare rised and there were changes in the health care system,.raffarien's 1st minister has taken laws which don't favor solidarity and insertion.
 
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