Israel: Neo-Nazi in the making?

[Member2019]

Why can't there be a "No-Kill Zone" reserved for innocents? Has anyone thought of this? All the innocent men, women and children could come forward and be directed into a reserved area of the state. There, shelter would be provided, health care and food. Then at least they are out of the way.

I sure wished I lived in the world you did FullMoonWolf. Unfortunately, this isn't "normal" war. One party in this conflict purposely launches missiles in the vincinity of civilians.

Israel has continually responded to each firing by firing back where the original missile was launched. That's a US tactic as well -- because the launch point is unmistakable. Unfortunately, when Israel responded today, they hit something really bad.

Israel has repeatedly told civilians in Lebanon to leave various areas where rockets are being fired. They have now paused the bombing for at least 24 hours, possibly 48 hours, to give people time to flee the area. The majority of rockets being used against them can only travel 10 or less miles, which means to hit Israel, they have to be within 10 miles of that the Israeli border. All these civilians have to do is flee at least 10 miles from the border.

Those civilians that do not at this time -- with a break in the bombing -- have only themselves to blame, or those who have been firing thousands of rockets into Israel for the last 6 years. But they will blame Israel, because Israel should just take the rocket attacks -- just like they have over the last 6 years -- right?

People can't blame the US for supplying Israel without also blaming those who are supplying terrorist organizations in direct violation of US Resolution 1559. If anything, it shows the envy of the "advantage" Israel and the US has, not "aggression." The "aggression" has been clear, even the Arab League originally agreed it was not instigated by Israel, and Israel had shown restraint for no less than 6 years.

Israel has been "holding back" for 6 years -- after they pulled out. Now they are regretting that decision because it just gave terrorists a closer range. And we've now found out they have been very well supplied by Syria and Iran, in total violation of UN resolutions.

These are the facts. Ignore them if you wish. But they are plain and simple. The main reason why people hate Israel and the US is because we have the bigger and better toys. But damn we really do reserve using them -- until the UN just fails to make good. That's why Lebanon is in such chaos -- a terrorist state, backed by Syria and Iran -- controls the state, not the Democracy setup.

Their ploy took 6 years, but finally got Israel to react. It's just sad people don't see this. In all honesty, after the 48 hours are over, I'd carpet bomb everything within 10 miles of the Israeli border and send a message. It's inhumane, but it's the message that needs to be sent. Civilians who have not left should know better -- the rockets have a minimum range, and their presence is what this terrorist organization wants.

This will be my last message on the matter. I might be a biased American, but I actually read the words of the UN Resolutions. And so does the US -- but apparently not most others (except Japan).

 

[Member2019]

Also IMO War is the ultimate expression of schizophrenic mass delusion. It's like Mob Rule, once it get's going nothing can escape and all bets are off. This War will only spawn more Wars and more "terrorists".

This war has been raging on since the creation of the State of Israel, four (4) Arab nations declared war on it the very day it was founded. Israel fought several wars well before the US ever supplied single unit or dollar to Israel.

The US is a nation of more people of Islamic faith than those of Jewish faith, over 3:2. And even some American Jewish citizens question Israel at times -- from its creation to its current conflicts.

My question will continue to be ...
Are portions of the Arab world ready to accept any peace whereby Israel co-exists?
Or must Israel be wiped off the face of the planet?

The saddest thing is that Israel and the US sincerely want the best for the Lebanese people. The Democracy installed by Resolution 1559 has been at the mercy of a terrorist state -- a state that fired over 800 rockets into Israel within months of Israel pulling out. A terrorist state that continues to abuse its host nation and continually antagonize and attack Israel in the hope it reacts.

In the hope that Israel will react and the game can further escalate.

Israel and the US have always know it was never worth it to react. But once Israel decided to react, the goal was to destroy the terrorist state so Resolution 1559 could come a reality. Unfortunately, we under-estimated how supplied they were by the Syrians and Iranians.

 

[4G63]

The problem with The Law, is that it must be followed. Interpretation leads to conflict and conflict leads to War. War leads to death and death leads to vengeance. Vengeance becomes terrorism and terror leads to hate. I think it's just a vicious cycle and the only outcome is, we all die. You'll change your song when Hate and War come pounding at your door.

 

[Baal]

Just thought this might interest you guys - We arabs were so naive....

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~samuel/feisal2.html

 

[Member2019]

Just thought this might interest you guys - We arabs were so naive....
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~samuel/feisal2.html

The sad thing is that the majority of those of Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Hindu and many other faiths can and would live together in peace. But it's always those select individuals with power that like to prey upon the differences. Whether we are talking former European colonies where the native population were split into 2, 3, 5+ different "ethicities" to keep them focus on their differences than their conqurerors to the multiple faces of sometimes even the same religion (Northern Ireland anyone?), sometimes select people just focus on the differences, than our similarities. And that ruins it for everyone.

 

[Baal]

True professor very true - unfortunately this is the 21st century and the silent majority is very, very pissed off. To rectify this problem we either lose that element of humanity alltogether or destroy ourselves...the world is getting smaller, we are all colliding into one another - there's not enough space... The solution lies in all of our hands, to love our brothers and sisters - those who can will have done their part, those who don't will be banned from the soup forever...

We feel like we extended our hands to to the jews and they cut them off. And yet, we are being asked to forgive the unthinkable for any society and move on...

Bent but not broken, we survive - these colonists are like all the others - we're a rude rude people so we'll be fine...

We wanted to focus on the similarities - they wanted to focus on the differences - it was all in the link to the corresponse I posted - ergo my point - we didn't start this war...

But

The cockroaches always win...

The meek shall inherit the earth

And the peacemakers shall be called the children of God...

Amen...

 

[Member2019]

We feel like we extended our hands to to the jews and they cut them off. And yet, we are being asked to forgive the unthinkable for any society and move on...

And Israel feels the same.

We wanted to focus on the similarities - they wanted to focus on the differences - it was all in the link to the corresponse I posted - ergo my point - we didn't start this war...

And Israel feels the same.

The cockroaches always win...

And definitions of cockroaches differ.

As some point, people need to step back and just stop. No more antagonizing. Strict adherence to UN resolutions.

And beware, the silent majority in the US is pissed off too. W. might not be popular, but the Israeli viewpoint very much is.

 

[Baal]

How can you say israel feels the same when the correspondance I posted shows that they didn't feel the same - cooperation under one banner is very different than side-by-side living

We want them to melt back into the pot - they want to assert their identity

We realize our blood is too old and dilluted to put a label on it (if we wanted to get technical - biblically speaking they should get the southern west bank and some of central israel and us the rest - but whose splitting hairs)

The definition of "Jew" differs - of "Arab" of Levantine, Canaanite, Phillistine, etc...

Where do you think the Palestinians and some Lebanese came from??? Arabia???? he...

Reality dear professor is not the UN, reality is history and at the end of the day, none of this really matters - why?

Because a couple of kidnapped soldiers wasn't worth the destruction of a country...

Absolute power corrupts absolutely - Lets Israel come, Let America come... all we have is history, and all we have is time...

 

[Member2019]

How can you say israel feels the same when the correspondance I posted shows that they didn't feel the same - cooperation under one banner is very different than side-by-side living. We want them to melt back into the pot - they want to assert their identity. We realize our blood is too old and dilluted to put a label on it (if we wanted to get technical - biblically speaking they should get the southern west bank and some of central israel and us the rest - but whose splitting hairs). The definition of "Jew" differs - of "Arab" of Levantine, Canaanite, Phillistine, etc...

Hey man, I'm not defending anyone in this any more. I'm just saying that the statements you've made I've also heard from Israelites as well.

Where do you think the Palestinians and some Lebanese came from??? Arabia???? he...

If you read my past posts, I fully agree that probably the worst place for the creation of the Israeli state was its current location. At the same time, no one really had much of a say in that -- other than those who founded the state.

But that was 60 years ago. The question is, what do we do now? Do we just keep the rhetoric up? Or do we try to create some solutions? Yes, the state of Israel is not about to merge with any other nation. The question is, should it be forced to? Or better yet, how many times does the state of Israel have to show it will not adhere to the will of neighboring states before they give up?

Reality dear professor is not the UN, reality is history and at the end of the day, none of this really matters - why? Because a couple of kidnapped soldiers wasn't worth the destruction of a country...

I think this goes far deeper, even in just the last few years, than a few kidnapped soldiers. Israel pulled out of Lebanon (among other locations) and got rockets fired right into their terroritory, but they resisted. And

Absolute power corrupts absolutely

That's funny, because that's basically what Hezbolla is asserting over the freely elected government of Lebanon. It has set foreign policy for 6 years -- in complete defiance of UN resolution 1559.

- Lets Israel come, Let America come...

American will not come without other UN troops as well. We tried that in 1983 as well, and look what happened there. One of these days I sincerely hope the people of Lebanon will realize the subset state who sets their agenda for them, and takes them down their path of destruction.

That's really sad. Because most Americans, and very Israelite I've spoken too -- heck, even the Arab league early on -- realize that Hezbolla was undermining the freely elected government of Lebanon. And what happens when a state controlls the rest of the state? That state dictates policy, and overrides the rest of the populous.

all we have is history, and all we have is time...

Only Al Quieda has killed more Americans than Hezbolla, so do not look for sanctuary in your arguments.

The key here is that Lebanon is a freely elected government. Why Hezbolla cannot respect their authority is because they have an agenda as a state in a state that will not listen to its parent state. And that has been the problem for 6 years. And at some point, Israel decided it wasn't going to tolerate one more kidnapping or one more rocket strike.

Don't ignore the fact that both Hamas and Hezbolla have been firing rockets into Israeli before this conflict stated. And then realize where those supplies are coming from.

It would be one thing if Syria and Iran were giving weapons to Lebanon, the freely elected government. But they have been providing them to Hezbolla, in the hope in creating what just happened. And that's why the Arab League was pissed off rather quickly. And it's why the US is just rolling its eyes like, "yeah, we saw this coming 10 years ago."

The funny thing is that the technology Israel has is a heck of a lot more discrete now. And they can show in 2006 -- unlike in 1996 -- without a shadow doubt, where the rockets were fired from. And that's why people like myself -- with a background in these intelligence and sensor systems -- has absolutely no sympathy for the people who are the root cause of why civilians are dying.

The only major person I feel for right now is the freely elected President of Lebanon. He's caught between a single party that is currently controlling the entire agenda of his nation, and the fact that innocent people are dying of a result of where they choose to fire their weapons from. And he knows the cause for people dying is not Israel. God knows Israel wants the freely elected government of Lebanon to survive -- but they can't trust them to do anything about the sub-state that is currently setting their foreign policy.

This isn't like 1996, where Israel hit a building hundreds of yards away from where a rocket was fired. In 2006, the proof has been clear -- shown over and over and over again. If you wish to ignore this fact, that's your fault. But Israel is hitting rocket launchers minutes after they fire -- and civilians are purposely near-by in the hope their deaths will fuel it further.

Israel has avoided engaging Hezbolla for years since they pulled out because they know it would only fuel this type of non-sense. But at some point, after over 800 rocket attackes, numerous kidnappings and various border engagements -- it was clear the freely elected government of Lebanon was powerless to enforce Resolution 1559. And that's where we are now.

So yes, you can make countless statements, countless rhetoric, etc... on why the state of Israel should or should not exist in its current location. But the real solution is what to do now that they are there, and have shown that no one is going to displace them. Do you just want to let anyone who disagrees to continually attack them?

Or would you like to have some standing peace? That's what people won't look at. There are simple reasons why peace does not exist.

 

[Roughneck]

For anyone trying to come to grips with the Israel-Arab conflicts; I can recommend and excellent book to START.

O! Jerusalem

Sure, it's a focus of one tiny "front" of the 'conflict' - but it explores the roots and presents it's case disapssionately. There are heroes, villains and cowards on all sides.

As regards the current conflict?

Israel has blown it, I think.

A question I frequently ask is "how many have to die before a war was justified?" If, as we've been told, each human life is infinitely precious, then there is no contrast between one life or a billion, since infinity=infinity in both cases - and it is therefore impossible to act disproportionately in the face of infinite loss.

For the record, I do not believe each individual life is of infinite value. "I have a little list; they'll never be missed..."

I believe Israel has intentionally targeted Hizbollah to neuter Iran. Iran can't back Hezbollah and look like a "good guy" (after all Hezbollah is already not looked upon nicely by the rest of the Middle East). Iran can't outright aid Hezbollah and risk the upperhand they currently have (a loss against Isreal will make them look weak and negotiators will devour them).

On the other hand, Iran can't not back Hezbollah. Right now the only thing keeping the rest of the Middle East from turning their backs on Iran is the "Muslims hate Israel" thing (Iran is a persian state and hates Arabs--Arabs hate Persians, generally speaking).

The only thing Iran can do is continue to secretly fund the war and hope it doesn't result in breaking the alliance they have with Syria (which it just might). Remember Iran has no real friends--they were our friends and allowed us to use their airspace when it meant invading Iraq and Afghanistan--despite being against the war.

In a side note, the US is hypocritical in the fact that we are supposedly fighting a war against terrorism, yet our greatest ally has used it time and time again (but this is an old argument and stems from my frustration with our meddlesome foreign policy being cloaked in the guise of "democracy").

cheers,

 

[Member2019]

Both sides think they're right.

That's always the problem in every conflict.

If both sides continue to believe they are right, there will be no end ...

The problem is that Hezbolla just came out and finally said, in public without reservation, they want the state of Israel exterminated. Israel does not want the same of Lebanon.

Unlike the Prof, I don't think any specific people (on either side) are the root cause of any of this. I don't blame Hezbollah any more than the Israeli Army.

That's the crux of the issue. Hezbolla is not a state. Hezbolla is not even the political party in control of Lebanon, unlike Hamas in Palestine. But Hezbolla is setting foreign policy for Lebannon.

Israel underestimated they could take out Hezbolla. Now the US is starting to recognize this. Israel's continued action is undermining the authority of Lebanon -- just as bad as Hezbolla's actions over the past 6 years have. So they are no better.

The US, the UN, even France and just about every other country in the EU wants a democratically elected Lebanon to control all foreign policy throughout the country. Heck, even the Arab League agrees with taht. Israel has not defeated Hezbolla and with each day, they are only making the problem worse.

They are just rival armies as far as I'm concerned,

Hezbolla is not an army, it's a partisan group of a country that has set foreign policy without the authority and leadership of the country. That's the problem. That has always been the problem.

It has been the same problem with Hamas in Palestine in the past. In fact, this is far more of a political act by Hezbolla than anything -- right out of the Hamas playbook.

Defy Israel. Harrass Israel. Attack Israel, and after Israel attacks back -- and hurts those not involved -- you gain the majority of the political base. That's clearly Hezbolla's plan here.

And it's working. All the meanwhile, innocent people are dying. And Israel gets that blame -- no matter how much video they will show as evidence of their blowing up launchers and other military hardware and personnel. For each civilian that dies in the collateral, you've got more voters for Hezbolla.

There is no positive out of this for Israel. Sit back, get attacked, see people kidnapped, etc... Attack the partisans causing you issue and you get the whole country they are from against you. No win situation for Israel.

And the US knows this, and is really trying to get Israel to realize they aren't going anywhere. Unfortunately, France just renig'd on the peace agreement and now the politics really get going in the UN! Sigh.

 

[Baal]

So yes, you can make countless statements, countless rhetoric, etc... on why the state of Israel should or should not exist in its current location. But the real solution is what to do now that they are there, and have shown that no one is going to displace them. Do you just want to let anyone who disagrees to continually attack them?

Or would you like to have some standing peace? That's what people won't look at. There are simple reasons why peace does not exist.

Peace will exist when the jews realize that they cant have a solely jewish state in a land that has never been solely jewish - they dont have that state now and they never will - i.e. 20% of the population is Palestinian and is speaking out against the agression of their own government - religion is religion - not race....its as simple as that - until they figure it out like the white south africans did - there will be no peace. You cant have your cake and eat it too...

Fox - Your damn right I'm biased - I lost more people I care about at the hands of the IDF than I want to talk about on this board - I got to watch - savvy? But I dont hate jews, and I dont hate israelis. That doesn't change the fact that we - were - colonized... And we wont stand for anything less than justice in spite of the fact that this world puts a higher premium on greed and materialism than any sense of higher values - I dont want vengeance as others do - I want justice... So yes, because I want justice I am biased...and damn proud of it!

And one more thing professor - I'm not willing to roll over and play dead, not yet... neither our my people. The Cavalry can keep putting us in cages, but we'll keep going off the reservation... This isn't about religion or politics for Palestinians as it is for Israelis - at least it wasn't at the beginning - even now - its about the ground we stand on - same goes for the lebanese. Think of your house - your family, your children. My gripe with the PA leadership and the Lebanese is that they dont get their house in order.... Not excercise their legitimate right to resist - and through resistance - excercise their right to exist....

We have a right to exist - which will not be destroyed so that others can enjoy that right in the way they seem fit - we can all exist together in the same land - under one banner for all I care - but subjegation? Noone in their right mind would agree to it - And the Zionists know it....

"We can talk as much as we want about our good intentions; but they understand as well as we what is not good for them. They look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux looked upon his prairie. To think that the Arabs will voluntarily consent to the realization of Zionism in return for the cultural and economic benefits we can bestow on them is infantile. This childish fantasy of our ?Arabo-philes? comes from some kind of contempt for the Arab people, of some kind of unfounded view of this race as a rabble ready to be bribed in order to sell out their homeland for a railroad network."
- Vladamir Jabotinsky - The Iron Wall - 1927

 

[Member2019]

Peace will exist when the jews realize that they cant have a solely jewish state in a land that has never been solely jewish - they dont have that state now and they never will - i.e. 20% of the population is Palestinian and is speaking out against the agression of their own government - religion is religion - not race....its as simple as that - until they figure it out like the white south africans did - there will be no peace. You cant have your cake and eat it too...

Hey, I have never argued Israel should have a state in the middle of the Middle East. I'm just saying, 60 years after they did, if you're interested in peace, Israel is all for it if you let them remain where they are and leave them alone. That's all.

As far as the concept of a Jewish state, if various other states would have protected those of Jewish faith before and during WWII, they may have not wanted their own state. I am not Jewish nor a Jewish sympathizer in the least bit, but given the persecution they have endured in many areas of the world -- even after WWII -- I don't blame them one bit for forming their own state.

So the question becomes, they have their land. They merely want to be left alone to it. At what point is that acceptable? If it will never be, then you have your answer.

Fox - Your damn right I'm biased - I lost more people I care about at the hands of the IDF than I want to talk about on this board - I got to watch - savvy? But I dont hate jews, and I dont hate israelis. That doesn't change the fact that we - were - colonized... And we wont stand for anything less than justice in spite of the fact that this world puts a higher premium on greed and materialism than any sense of higher values - I dont want vengeance as others do - I want justice... So yes, because I want justice I am biased...and damn proud of it!

Don't blame the Jewish state for past European aggression and colonization. In fact, the state of Israel was largely founded by people trying to escape persecution by African, Asian, European and other nations. About the only nation that has never persecuted those of Jewish faith is the US -- and even we didn't support Israel until after Vietnam. And much of that was a result of our providing intelligence to the UN on middle eastern wars starting in the late '60s.

And one more thing professor - I'm not willing to roll over and play dead, not yet... neither our my people.

I wasn't saying you should. I think you're taking what I say as a vote of Jewish confidence -- quite the opposite. The problem is right now that Hezbolla is not Lebanon, yet at the same time -- to quote you -- "they want have their cake and eat it too" by letting Hezbolla make foreign policy, then argue they will defend the actions of Hezbolla when Israel moves against it.

The UN, the US and countless others want the democratically elected government of Lebanon to succeed. Hezbolla has now re-invigorated the concept of erradicating Israel. That's just sad. Because it means there will be no peace at all.

The Cavalry can keep putting us in cages, but we'll keep going off the reservation... This isn't about religion or politics for Palestinians as it is for Israelis - at least it wasn't at the beginning - even now - its about the ground we stand on - same goes for the lebanese. Think of your house - your family, your children. My gripe with the PA leadership and the Lebanese is that they dont get their house in order.... Not excercise their legitimate right to resist - and through resistance - excercise their right to exist....

Israel will be the first that the freely elected Lebanon government has the right to exist. At the same time, I have to agree with Israel, the Lebanese government has absolutely no control over Hezbolla -- who asserts an independent, foreign policy while only being a minor faction in the government. And that attitude extends into 60 year-old arguments whether Israel should exist or not -- which has absolutely nothing to do with peace and co-existence in the region.

We have a right to exist - which will not be destroyed so that others can enjoy that right in the way they seem fit - we can all exist together in the same land - under one banner for all I care - but subjegation? Noone in their right mind would agree to it - And the Zionists know it....

If the freely elected government of Lebanon could control Hezbolla, I'm sure Israel would pull out overnight. But at this point, they have shown they cannot. They are playing deniability games. And everyone knows it.

Again, I totally feel the most for the President of Lebanon. He's getting blamed for much of this, but he can do nothing about it. Hezbolla is going to get political control of his country, no matter how many dead civilians it takes. That's the exact same game Hamas played too, and it worked very well.

"We can talk as much as we want about our good intentions; but they understand as well as we what is not good for them. They look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux looked upon his prairie. To think that the Arabs will voluntarily consent to the realization of Zionism in return for the cultural and economic benefits we can bestow on them is infantile. This childish fantasy of our ?Arabo-philes? comes from some kind of contempt for the Arab people, of some kind of unfounded view of this race as a rabble ready to be bribed in order to sell out their homeland for a railroad network."
- Vladamir Jabotinsky - The Iron Wall - 1927

I hold no contempt for the various people who are commonly (and ignorantly) lumped together as "the Arab people." But allowing a small subset of a people in a country to dictate foreign policy independent of those elected and ruling is a recipe for disaster. If a US state started to attack Canada or Mexico, I would not blame Canada or Mexico for killing my fellow American citizens in those states -- even those civilians caught in the cross-fire.

It's clear that Hezbolla, like Hamas before it, has an agenda that is not about peace, but the removal of Israel from the region. They will not negotiate on this fact, and with every past peace, it is constantly violated by those two groups until Israel finally reacts at some point. But in every case, it's a losing scenario for Israel. Hamas is now the majority in Palestine. And it's very much the case that after seeing that over the last few years, it was only a matter of time before Hezbolla decided to do the same.

I completely predict that Hezbolla will gain the political majority in Lebanon by the next 2 elections. That's what many in the Arab League fear, and it's why they've been trying to warn Israel not to push Lebanon into a far graver situation. The French and US are aware of this, trust me, it's at the forefront of their mind. The question is how to do we stop this violence and get Israel to stop -- without rewarding Hezbolla with the victory they want.

I think it's rather impossible. Especially when you have an organization that will stop at nothing until Israel is removed from the region. It has nothing to do with peace, but forcing peace by the removal of another people. Again, I'll agree that I don't think Israel should have settled in the area 60 years ago. But if we're talking about peace now, given the existence of Israel in the region and not the past, what do you suggest?

 

[Baal]

Hey, I have never argued Israel should have a state in the middle of the Middle East.

And I never argued that they shouldn't live in the middle of the middle east.

As far as the concept of a Jewish state, if various other states would have protected those of Jewish faith before and during WWII, they may have not wanted their own state.

The whisperings of political Zionism began in the 1880's and Theadore Hertzl's Zionist Manifesto was written in 1896 They wanted their state for a very long time - the Jabotinsky piece I referenced is more telling in its entirety.

So the question becomes, they have their land. They merely want to be left alone to it. At what point is that acceptable? If it will never be, then you have your answer.

We can easily argue the same premise, the difference being we were there first...

Don't blame the Jewish state for past European aggression and colonization. .

I dont. I blame them for Jewish agression and colonization based on models of european agression and colonization, which by your logic wouldn't have occured had the jews not been persecuted. And who, pray tell, where they persecuted by??? Europeans of course! Now I'm not saying that thats a reason to hate europe - but why on earth would you think we would want to take responsibility for european actions??? Uhhhh we didn't do it...and still, in my first of these recent posts, I show that we initially showed compassion - fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...etc...

It's clear that Hezbolla, like Hamas before it, has an agenda that is not about peace, but the removal of Israel from the region.

No its about regaining Palestine. Again, its a matter of perspective. If the Jews had done the right thing and not opted for total domination from the beginning, we'd have a pluaralistic state (like haifa - hello) it works... In fact, it works so well that 9 months of qualitative and quantitative research for MA showed that binationalism is the optimal solution for economic growth, peace and security. However, ideological impasse makes this impossible. It's not our impasse and thus, not our problem... There was no call for a dominant Islamic state by the Arab Higher Committee in the 1930's - not even the Muslim Brotherhood was on that wavelength. Islamization began in the 50's - after the state was born. And for the record, Palestinians and lebanese were the most secular people in the Arab world, before Israel. What you see is entirely reactionary on the part of palestinians and lebanese.... And it is this reactionism that leads to terrorism, not ideology.... Westerners like to live in a very superficial world where ideas and innovation are more important than human life. Jews are from the Middle East...Zionism....Zionism is a construct of the West. Thus, the battle of sovereignty and ownership was not created in a vacuum.

what do you suggest?

One state - two people, it's going to happen eventually the easy way, or the hard way.... Neither side has the ability to destroy either and I dont call for the annihilation of jews. Ethnically speaking, Levantines (Palestinians,Syrians and Lebanese minus the bedouin), and Jews are more closely related to each other than anyone else in the world. And what draws us together, predates us - we, can recognize that - The arab world at large based its initial acceptance of zionism on it... The Zionists have acted like a doped up ungreatful relative that shows up at the front door with a gun and demands everything you own while he proceeds to humiliate you by raping your dignity at every oppurtunity. The real question should be...why do they (the zionists - hate us even more than the cowboy hated the indian) Because in this case, the cowboy used to be an indian and he refuses to admit it. He refuses to accept his family for what it is... He refuses to sit down, shut up and listen to his mother.

Why do westerners insist that just because islam's only been around since the 7th century and despite the jahaliya, - we've all forgotten how to read.... For instance, try calling a Lebanese Maronite an Arab... We've got our own version of reality - in which the Jews were a religous sect within Canaan, not the center of the universe, and to which the majority of canaanites had converted by the time of christ... (Canaanite religion was in fact the foundation for Greek and Roman mythology - not the other way around) The jews or pagans that remained after the romans either converted to christianity or remained pagan and later, all became muslims... The jews that left and were kicked out remained jews - but its the saaaame people - call it Canaan and call it a day...

 

[Member2019]

They wanted their state for a very long time - the Jabotinsky piece I referenced is more telling in its entirety.

Just like you can pick various British or even French citizens who penned the concepts 200 years before the founding of the United States that first put those ideals into government.

Revisiting a radical idea that no one gave much thought to before events happen much later is nothing new. It's always some set of circumstances that turn a few, random idealists into a full-blown nation.

We can easily argue the same premise, the difference being we were there first...

And there's a reason why a copy of the British Magna Carta is displayed in the main hall of the United States' National Archives -- right next to the [original of the] Declaration of Independence and Constitution.

But that all aside, saying "first" doesn't solve the matter of "peace" now. Unless the end-game is that there will be no peace until the state of Israel is there no more. So, again, the question is, how do you achive peace?

I dont. I blame them for Jewish agression and colonization based on models of european agression and colonization, which by your logic wouldn't have occured had the jews not been persecuted.

The Jewish people have been prosecuted by many people of many parts of the world for a long time. They fully integrated into various countries and cultures over the last millenium and where did that get them?

Ask anyone of Jewish faith that grew up in Russia, various countries of Europe, etc... in the 19th and 20th centuries. There is a reason why they finally sought their homeland. The incidents of WWII just turned from a few idealists into enough of a movement to do so.

But, again, that doesn't address the matter at hand. How do you get peace in the middle east with the state of Israel in existence? Or is the comment that Israel cannot exist? I'm still not understanding these "aggression" and "colonization" comments. Especially given the circumstances on and the incidents which have led Israel to "invaded" various countries in the past.

And who, pray tell, where they persecuted by??? Europeans of course!

Agreed. And I even said I agree with the Iranian President on some of those comments. Europe doesn't like to hear them, but privately, most Americans (including many of our 7 million Jewish Americans, as well as our 10 million Islamic Americans) have to agree!

But what does that have to do with the current issue -- 60 years after the state of Israel was founded, and Israel had fended off many attacks by other nations and, more recently, state-sponsored, but denied, partisan groups? How do you sustain peace?

Now I'm not saying that thats a reason to hate europe - but why on earth would you think we would want to take responsibility for european actions??? Uhhhh we didn't do it...and still, in my first of these recent posts, I show that we initially showed compassion - fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...etc...

Because on the first day Israel was founded, virtually every Arab state declared war on it. One of the reasons Arab states no longer even attempt to declare war on Israel is because Israel has shown itself most capable at destroying the ability of most Arab states to wage war against Israel in a matter of weeks, if not days.

So now we're left with state-sponsored, but not state-led, partisan incursions and operations against Israel. And at some point, Israel finally reacts to it -- and we all lose. That's the problem right now. The US and Arab League is trying to get Israel to realize that by attempting to take out Hezbolla will lead to the same result as it did with Hamas. Hamas is now the controlling party in Palestine. I predict the same will now become of Hezbolla in Lebanon in 2 general elections.

So the actions of Hezbolla were very calculated in this regard -- taken directly from the playbook of Hamas. Over 800 rockets and countless other infractions didn't get Israel to react over 6 years. But the border crossing that resulted in innocent civilians dead and 2 Israel soldiers finally did.

No its about regaining Palestine. Again, its a matter of perspective. If the Jews had done the right thing and not opted for total domination from the beginning, we'd have a pluaralistic state (like haifa - hello) it works... In fact, it works so well that 9 months of qualitative and quantitative research for MA showed that binationalism is the optimal solution for economic growth, peace and security. However, ideological impasse makes this impossible. It's not our impasse and thus, not our problem... There was no call for a dominant Islamic state by the Arab Higher Committee in the 1930's - not even the Muslim Brotherhood was on that wavelength. Islamization began in the 50's - after the state was born.

Hey, I don't disagree with you there. But now we're back to 60 years ago. At what point are you going to lay out some ideas for peace? Honestly, I'm not trying to argue with you. I want the killing to stop and partisan sub-states to stop declaring war on Israel while their parent state has full deniability (let alone the external states funding that terror).

And for the record, Palestinians and lebanese were the most secular people in the Arab world, before Israel. What you see is entirely reactionary on the part of palestinians and lebanese.... And it is this reactionism that leads to terrorism, not ideology.... Westerners like to live in a very superficial world where ideas and innovation are more important than human life.

Excuse me? Why do you paint us so shallow?

Jews are from the Middle East...Zionism....Zionism is a construct of the West. Thus, the battle of sovereignty and ownership was not created in a vacuum.

Zionism is an institution that has been created by those who want to make an argument -- and people disagree about what it is.

One state - two people, it's going to happen eventually the easy way, or the hard way.... Neither side has the ability to destroy either and I dont call for the annihilation of jews. Ethnically speaking, Levantines (Palestinians,Syrians and Lebanese minus the bedouin), and Jews are more closely related to each other than anyone else in the world. And what draws us together, predates us - we, can recognize that - The arab world at large based its initial acceptance of zionism on it... The Zionists have acted like a doped up ungreatful relative that shows up at the front door with a gun and demands everything you own while he proceeds to humiliate you by raping your dignity at every oppurtunity.

Because they learned it from us evil westerners I assume?

The real question should be...why do they (the zionists - hate us even more than the cowboy hated the indian)

And the cowboy hated the indian? (Huh?) I think you've been watching a bit too much of older American TV. Most American historians and most American TV tell a very different tale.

Because in this case, the cowboy used to be an indian and he refuses to admit it. He refuses to accept his family for what it is... He refuses to sit down, shut up and listen to his mother.

Get off the cowboy bit. Most Americans don't think like 1950s TV suggest.

Why do westerners insist that just because islam's only been around since the 7th century and despite the jahaliya, - we've all forgotten how to read.... For instance, try calling a Lebanese Maronite an Arab... We've got our own version of reality - in which the Jews were a religous sect within Canaan, not the center of the universe, and to which the majority of canaanites had converted by the time of christ... (Canaanite religion was in fact the foundation for Greek and Roman mythology - not the other way around) The jews or pagans that remained after the romans either converted to christianity or remained pagan and later, all became muslims... The jews that left and were kicked out remained jews - but its the saaaame people - call it Canaan and call it a day...

The thing is that you're arguing we have an ignorant viewpoint that even most Americans would say is an ignorant viewpoint as well! We're not as ignorant of history as you think.

Again, what is the peaceful solution here? All I see is a history leason I didn't need, based on the assumption that I am the ignorant US TV media -- which 80% of us Americans don't even watch. How do you achieve peace without constantly revisiting the creation of the state of Israel? Again, think 60 years later.

 

[Member2019]

In conclusion, I think we all agree that civilians dying is just unacceptable. Unfortunately, there are many parties to this whose actions disagree. I'm not going to comment on this any more. I have stated the solutions as I see them, none of them with positive results for the future. I hope others would at least suggest real solutions.

Because it's always been much easier to bitch about circumstances and results than to come up with a lasting solution that solves a problem.

I'm going to shutup now because I promised I wouldn't get into these debates anymore. I really need to stick to that.

 

[Baal]

Because it's always been much easier to bitch about circumstances and results than to come up with a lasting solution that solves a problem.

I expected more of a response from you than this and the side-stepping posted above. In fact I did provide a lasting solution in my previous posts...A "one state" solution.... A secular state option with jerusalem vaticanized and reunited, a state for "all" of gods children. A "light unto the nations" based on history rather then prejudice.

Yet, you argued that somehow, I should simply accept the fact that because jews have been persecuted, I somehow should bear the brunt of the consequences by accepting persecution - I dont buy it... It seems to be a convienant way to ignore a problem that westerners, not Arabs or Palestinians, created. Because we dont acknowledge the supposedly universal concepts of "balance of power" and/or "rational-interest" models, reality, once again, is a matter of perception...

I dont care what the jews went through in russia, or in europe, or in germany - my ancestors didn't burn them at the stake, torture them into conversion or slaughter them wholesale in gas chambers... Thats not our cross to bear - I feel no guilt because I shouldn't have to... For you to argue that I should, and therefore shut up and accept this "remedy" concocted by a group of europeans who were overjoyed at the idea of shoveling the jews off to somewhere else.... yeah ok....

You say that the Arab states declared war on Israel - you dont say that the Lehi, the Irgun and the Haganah declared war on the Arabs in the 20's and 30's committed acts of terrorism against the british and the United Nations and finally, burned 669 villages and towns to the ground and expelled 700k people - that my friend, is an act of war...

The Arabs were justified in attacking because they had been attacked by these terrorist insurgents for quite a long time...

Alas - history is always written by the victors - as it was here in america with the declaration of independence - Blowing up ships in boston harbor and hiding in the woods like a bunch of guerillas vs. a conventional army seems a little terrorist to me....

Once again, one man's terrorist in another mans freedom fighter...

Most Palestinians came to hate Jews the way American slaves hated their masters...but within every group of slaves - there are a couple of Nat Turners...

When the persecution ends, the hate will stop...

 

[pussy+dickdenice]

I expected more of a response from you than this and the side-stepping posted above. In fact I did provide a lasting solution in my previous posts...A "one state" solution.... A secular state option with jerusalem vaticanized and reunited, a state for "all" of gods children. A "light unto the nations" based on history rather then prejudice.

Yet, you argued that somehow, I should simply accept the fact that because jews have been persecuted, I somehow should bear the brunt of the consequences by accepting persecution - I dont buy it... It seems to be a convienant way to ignore a problem that westerners, not Arabs or Palestinians, created. Because we dont acknowledge the supposedly universal concepts of "balance of power" and/or "rational-interest" models, reality, once again, is a matter of perception...

I dont care what the jews went through in russia, or in europe, or in germany - my ancestors didn't burn them at the stake, torture them into conversion or slaughter them wholesale in gas chambers... Thats not our cross to bear - I feel no guilt because I shouldn't have to... For you to argue that I should, and therefore shut up and accept this "remedy" concocted by a group of europeans who were overjoyed at the idea of shoveling the jews off to somewhere else.... yeah ok....

You say that the Arab states declared war on Israel - you dont say that the Lehi, the Irgun and the Haganah declared war on the Arabs in the 20's and 30's committed acts of terrorism against the british and the United Nations and finally, burned 669 villages and towns to the ground and expelled 700k people - that my friend, is an act of war...

The Arabs were justified in attacking because they had been attacked by these terrorist insurgents for quite a long time...

Alas - history is always written by the victors - as it was here in america with the declaration of independence - Blowing up ships in boston harbor and hiding in the woods like a bunch of guerillas vs. a conventional army seems a little terrorist to me....

Once again, one man's terrorist in another mans freedom fighter...

Most Palestinians came to hate Jews the way American slaves hated their masters...but within every group of slaves - there are a couple of Nat Turners...

When the persecution ends, the hate will stop...

Thank You Baal, I couldn't have rationalised it better. Kuddos to you. But friend, you can never show light to the blinds. There are a few who are not physically challenged blind, you know.
regards, keep up the good & sane side. :thumbsup:
dd

 

[pussypoppa]

Yes, Great post!

 

[simpletool]

Good read