Forced Worship

[McRocket]

Re: Parents tend to enforce views, direct or indirect ...

But he didn't, he wanted you to believe in God because -- from his perspective -- he cared about you.

You don't know his father, so you have no factual idea why he did what he did. His intentions may have been good. Or not.

You have to stop and realize the intention of people, not necessarily their end-actions that may look like completely different.

I wonder if looking at Hitler's intentions help the holocaust survivors sleep better? My guess is no.
Extreme example. But I hope the point is clear.
Though I don't totally disagree with your point. But I mostly do in this case.




No offense man but, why do you think anyone cares about ALL this detail about your life? Point out one post where someone commented that they want to know THIS much about you? Just one?

No one on here tells 1/10th of the minute details of their existence that you do. Even me (and I can rant). Why? Because no one cares to know THAT much detail.

You have many interesting facts to share. The tinniest minutia of your personal life is not one of them - IMO.

 

[Imagine]

You have just struck the note why I'm a staunch American Libertarian-Capitalist, and against Liberal/Libertarian-Socialism, Communism as well as Conservative-Capitalist or even Conservative-Socialist.

Yeah... 'Cause that was, like, totally my point...

Other than that, ye Gods, Prof. Can you say anything without an essay?

 

[tartanterrier]

My ex girlfriend made me go to church with her but she never made me "worship". I just faked it so she would take my pants off when we got home.

That's brilliant :1orglaugh

 

[Member2019]

Yeah... 'Cause that was, like, totally my point...
Other than that, ye Gods, Prof. Can you say anything without an essay?

Yes, but it's far more rare.
As always, you can ignore what I post, I make my points for those that care to read, and I am not offended if you do not.
I think the only time I've taken offense is when someone argued with me in an area of my expertise over and over when I explained the technical answer several times already.

Individual freedom and responsibility is very big for me, and I don't have a problem with how much parents raise their kids.
In fact, I see a bigger problem with how kids (in their 20s) treat their parents afterwards, not realize all they did for them.
As I said, any and all experiences can work to a good if you let them, even if it's indirect.

It's all about how you let things affect you, not so much whether it was "right" or "wrong" or anything as subjective as the original "act' either.
There were a lot of things that my parents made me do that was more about discipline and control than any direct benefit.
But I still got some benefit out of them, and I don't consider myself brainwashed, denied, hurt or otherwise taking issue with it.

One of the reasons I'm an extremely effective consultant is that I don't let things affect me unless I want them to.
I don't get upset with clients or situations, even when I'm getting screwed pretty hard, I just push through it and "work the problem."
I've seen way too many people cause themselves to lose their own jobs because they reacted instead of not letting something effect them.

 

[Legzman]

I think it's perfectly acceptable if parents expose their children to religion, but I think it's wrong for parents to force their children to think a certain way.

My parents took me to church when I was younger and when I said I didn't want to go anymore, they didn't make me.

Best response right there! No more discussion needed!
*Thread Closed*

 

[McRocket]

In fact, I see a bigger problem with how kids (in their 20s) treat their parents afterwards, not realize all they did for them.
As I said, any and all experiences can work to a good if you let them, even if it's indirect.

Yes, it is amazing how much being beaten and/or molested and/or unloved and/or ignored and/or insulted by your parents can help make your life better.
And darn those kids that don't come to appreciate when they are adults just what all those abuses did for them and how they should be grateful to their parents for trying to 'help' them.

NOT!!!

 

[calpoon]

My ex girlfriend made me go to church with her but she never made me "worship". I just faked it so she would take my pants off when we got home.

I'm a good christian with the sodomy, cuz it's better to give than to recieve.

 

[BlueBalls]

There will always be fanatics

 

[Member2019]

Fanatics v. abuse ...

There will always be fanatics

I still find it amazing how many people are so quick to call their parents "abusive," which minimizes the real kids who are abused.
There is a huge swing between forcing kids to go to church or work in the family business versus emotionally destroying them as worthless or beating/raping them.
Even if misguided at times, parents who try to teach their kids some positive values are at least trying, whereas those who are nothing but negative are the real abusers.

It's important to differentiate.

 

[D-rock]

I just faked it so she would take my pants off when we got home.

I guess guys really can fake it after all. :1orglaugh

 

[ChefChiTown]

Re: Fanatics v. abuse ...

I still find it amazing how many people are so quick to call their parents "abusive," which minimizes the real kids who are abused.
There is a huge swing between forcing kids to go to church or work in the family business versus emotionally destroying them as worthless or beating/raping them.Even if misguided at times, parents who try to teach their kids some positive values are at least trying, whereas those who are nothing but negative are the real abusers.

It's important to differentiate.

That's very true, but...although the method of abuse is different in each case, the outcome can be just the same.

Parents who force a life of religion upon their children are instantly removing any chance of those children developing a mind of their own in the future. The thoughts and beliefs that they would maintain wouldn't even be their own, as their parents would be the one's who are enforcing their own way of life upon their children. It wouldn't be their own fault, by any means, but they would be forced into a brainwashed mindset and slowly turn into Mommy and Daddy's own little personal zombies.

 

[Member2019]

Personal responsibility does not change ...

It wouldn't be their own fault, by any means, but they would be forced into a brainwashed mindset and slowly turn into Mommy and Daddy's own little personal zombies.

It is their fault in how they act, that's the problem, you see otherwise not realizing it's an "excuse mechanism" too many people use.
There are tragedies of varying degrees in the lives of children, but that does not excuse personal responsibility when they are adults.

I'm sorry, but many so called "abuses" are not "abuses," but they are the experiences that make up your life.
How you react to them is what matters or, more and better yet, how you take them and do not let them affect you.

Parenting, schooling, learning, controversy, etc...
Maybe it's because I've never drank, done drugs, given into sex I didn't want to have, etc... and "peer" (or even "parental") pressure, but I just don't understand the "excuse mechanism."

I'm not talking about rape, physical abuse or even emotional abuse where a parent or teacher utterly obliterates any "self worth" of a kid.
I'm talking about parents, teachers, etc... having different values and forcing those values on their kids, that may be misguided, but are not absolutely "wrong."

Hell, one could argue the alleged "need for the church" is just as misguided as someone has the "need to blame the church."
It's an "excuse mechanism," and I'm sorry, I don't by into it and you will get 0 compassion from me when you use it as an excuse.

 

[ChefChiTown]

Re: Personal responsibility does not change ...

It is their fault in how they act, that's the problem, you see otherwise not realizing it's an "excuse mechanism" too many people use.

If you're forced to do something, the outcome is not your fault.

If someone forces me to eat rotten eggs, it's not my fault if I get sick.

 

[Member2019]

In one ear and out the other ...

If you're forced to do something, the outcome is not your fault.
If someone forces me to eat rotten eggs, it's not my fault if I get sick.

Apparently you could not put this together because I did not even remotely refer to that!

To use your analogy ...
"If someone forced you to eat rotten eggs 10 years ago, it is your fault if you're still using it as an excuse for personal irresponsibility."

It's all about how you let it affect you, apparently people like to bitch about everything these days.
The US has become one big and fucking massive violin.

 

[Member2019]

What was her point?

My ex girlfriend made me go to church with her but she never made me "worship".

What was her point with you doing that?
Was it for appearances with her father? Parents? Others?
Or did she honestly believe you could "fool" God or, worse yet, think you were "doing good?"

I could honestly do a sermon on how God doesn't want you to do that, how God wants you to be yourself.

Classic question of (among countless questions that arise out of the Gospel) ...
"Which is the worse sinner?
The wealthy guy who doesn't give to charity, or
The wealthy guy who gives half his wealth to charity, but claims he has given all of his money to charity."

It's an interesting question based on what defines a "sin," although the Christ basically points out the reality.
Paul continually hit on this similar theme on what "sins" were, and the answer is very simple.

It's about things that don't do anything for you but harm you and/or others, including doing nothing but motions and traditions.
Especially those motions and traditions you don't believe with or, worse yet, serve no purpose to help anyone other than for appearance.

I just faked it so she would take my pants off when we got home.

Well, maybe it wasn't a sin for you, because there was something in it for you that didn't harm others.
But in her case ... oh well, I think I made my point.

 

[ChefChiTown]

Re: In one ear and out the other ...

Apparently you could not put this together because I did not even remotely refer to that!

To use your analogy ...
"If someone forced you to eat rotten eggs 10 years ago, it is your fault if you're still using it as an excuse for personal irresponsibility."

It's all about how you let it affect you, apparently people like to bitch about everything these days.
The US has become one big and fucking massive violin.

With the mentality of "it's all about how you let it affect you", then I guess you're saying that every single person who is violently raped against their will or was forced to watch their parents get murdered should have absolutely no "excuse" or reason for being a little fucked up when they get older.

Surely, you can't be fucking serious.

Forcing a life of devoted religion upon a child is wrong, as it doesn't allow the child to make their own decisions about what, or what not to believe.

What was her point with you doing that?
Was it for appearances with her father? Parents? Others?
Or did she honestly believe you could "fool" God or, worse yet, think you were "doing good?"

I could honestly do a sermon on how God doesn't want you to do that, how God wants you to be yourself.

Her point in taking me to church with her was so we could, oh, I don't know...be together? I didn't know it was wrong to do things with the person you love.

And, I was being myself. I'm willing to sit through an extremely boring church service just so I can put a smile on my loved one's face. Getting my pants taken off was just a bonus that I enjoyed from time to time.

Well, maybe it wasn't a sin for you, because there was something in it for you that didn't harm others.
But in her case ... oh well, I think I made my point.

Are you saying it's a sin for her? If so, how?...because she didn't do anything wrong.

 

[Member2019]

For the 3rd time!

With the mentality of "it's all about how you let it affect you", then I guess you're saying that every single person who is violently raped ...

For the 3rd fucking time ...

From: http://board.freeones.com/showpost.php?p=1832207

'I still find it amazing how many people are so quick to call their parents "abusive," which minimizes the real kids who are abused.
There is a huge swing between forcing kids to go to church or work in the family business versus emotionally destroying them as worthless or beating/raping them.
Even if misguided at times, parents who try to teach their kids some positive values are at least trying, whereas those who are nothing but negative are the real abusers.'

And: http://board.freeones.com/showpost.php?p=1832279

'I'm not talking about rape, physical abuse or even emotional abuse where a parent or teacher utterly obliterates any "self worth" of a kid.
I'm talking about parents, teachers, etc... having different values and forcing those values on their kids, that may be misguided, but are not absolutely "wrong."'

If you cannot remotely maintain the context of what I actually said, and want to argue against things I did NOT say, then you are just arguing with yourself.
And continuing to miss my point.

So for the last time ...

We're talking about parents forcing their kids to go to church, go to work, do various things, etc... that parents think is a "positive" experience for their kids, even if misguided or not true for the child.
I'm not talking about parents who rape, physically abuse or even emotionally abuse the kid as "worthless" or some other, and massively and negatively reinforcing attitude that they don't deserve to live.

The kids of the former have no excuse for what they do 10 years later, sorry, but that's what I value.

Surely, you can't be fucking serious.

Surely, after the third fucking time, you can see that I was not referring to ...
- Rape
- Physical abuse
- Exposure to murder, or even just
- "Extreme/demeaning" emotional abuse

Okay? Don't argue with what I did NOT say!

Forcing a life of devoted religion upon a child is wrong, as it doesn't allow the child to make their own decisions about what, or what not to believe.

And I will continue to contend that there are so many things beyond just religion that are just as "life affecting."
But they are often based on the parent, teacher, etc... believing they are "good values" for the child.

That has nothing to do with rape, physical abuse, exposure to murder, or even just total, negative, demeaning emotional abuse.

Her point in taking me to church with her was so we could, oh, I don't know...be together? I didn't know it was wrong to do things with the person you love.

I never said you were wrong, you were doing something because you loved her and she insisted.
I even admitted that, and it is in-line with my "accept the values of others as your own."
But I said she was wrong to force it upon you, especially since she had no interest in you getting anything out of it.

I know "my way of thinking" is a little too foreign for some people, and doesn't fit that 2-axis right v. wrong.
That I approve of porn, that I approve of polygamous relationships, that I approve of alcohol, guns and even some drugs.
That I see sins very differently than most religions, churches, etc...

But you seem to miss the fact that my #1 "bitch" is that a great majority of people have no excuse for lack of personal responsibility.
In fact, every spiritual text I've read had harped on that over and over and over again, yet people miss it.
That if you want to do something that is an "alleged sin," and never repent," there's no sense in considering a sin, because you're never going to repent anyway.

And, I was being myself. I'm willing to sit through an extremely boring church service just so I can put a smile on my loved one's face. Getting my pants taken off was just a bonus that I enjoyed from time to time.

And I did not disagree with that -- please re-read my full post on that.

Are you saying it's a sin for her?

Yes, she was not respecting your values, and having you commit yourself to a false duty you did not believe in.
Again, I look back to the wealthy man who gave only half his money away, but claimed to have given all of it away.
Why did the Christ forgive the thief on the Cross and not that man, even though he still gave away half his money to charity?

Makes you really think about what a "sin" is.

If so, how?...because she didn't do anything wrong.

"Wrong" under who's value? "The absolute value"? Or her lack of respect for your values?
What purpose did you serve there other than to just to be with her since she required you to go?
And, again, why did she require you to go?

As I said, I could understand if it was some value of her father or parents, then she is just trying to adopt their values out of respect.
But if she just did it because she thought her values were more important than yours in that regard, when you were getting nothing out of the experience (not talking about afterwards), then yes, it was a sin for her to make you go.

I know that's "outside the box" when it comes to the thought, someone actually saying forcing someone to go to church is a sin.
But doesn't it fit the reality of what I've been saying all along about this?

 

[ChefChiTown]

Re: For the 3rd time!

Surely, after the third fucking time, you can see that I was not referring to ...
- Rape
- Physical abuse
- Exposure to murder, or even just
- "Extreme/demeaning" emotional abuse

Okay? Don't argue with what I did NOT say!

Nowhere in my posts did I indicate that you said any of those things. I was referring to your mentality of...

It's all about how you let it affect you, apparently people like to bitch about everything these days.
The US has become one big and fucking massive violin.

...which I clearly stated.

"Wrong" under who's value? "The absolute value"? Or her lack of respect for your values?
What purpose did you serve there other than to just to be with her since she required you to go?
And, again, why did she require you to go?

She wanted me to go with her, once again, so we could be together. She never disrespected me by wanting me to go along with her. I was never forced to go with her, it was just her desire, and to take a line from Vince Vaughn...

"What baby wants, baby gets."

I was acting as a loving, supportive boyfriend. That was the purpose I served. Hell, I didn't enjoy half of the things she wanted me to do with her, but making her happy meant more to me than having to do something I'm not really interested in...even going to church and listening to a bunch of crap that I don't buy into for a few hours. I especially hated going to her God damned softball games , but I digress.

Anyway, we're both king of straying away from the thread by going back and forth like this, so back on topic...

(Ironically, referring to the same girlfriend who I went to church with )

My ex girlfriend's mom was super fucking religious and tried to force her beliefs upon 99% of the people she would talk to. I fucking hated going to her house and having to listen to her Bible-thumping rants about how I need to clean up my life. She forced her daughter (my ex girlfriend) into a life of religion and to be honest...it fucked her up, A LOT.

Because of her mother's control over her childhood, my ex wasn't 100% "all there" in the head, if you know what I mean. She was forcefully pushed into a life of religion and she would struggle with it day in and day out, but she didn't know any better. She had a hard time thinking for herself and it took a long, long time for her to realize that she didn't have to live the way that her mother wanted her to.

It was extremely painful to watch her struggle while she slowly fought to break out of the mold in which her mother put her in. To this day, she's still not right in the head and I truly believe that it is all due to her mother and the brainwashing that she enforced upon her.

 

[Member2019]

Re: For the 3rd time!

Nowhere in my posts did I indicate that you said any of those things. I was referring to your mentality of...
...which I clearly stated.

And "my mentality" I explicitly stated it did not apply in cases of rape, abuse, being exposed to murder, etc...

So why did you keep responding to my statements with examples that I explicitly stated did not apply?
You seemed to agree with me, even acknowledging I said that, but then acted like I never did by taking issue with my statements which were still very much under that same context and related conditions!

I utterly agree that rape, physical abuse, etc... are extreme violations and absolute non-positive attitudes that really fuck people up for their entire life.
But when you apply that to mere people who think they are doing something positive, even if it's not in the end, but are trying to apply their values, then you minimize the extreme differences.

It's like saying torture is denying somebody the Koran which is just as bad as water boarding. Huge fucking difference!

She wanted me to go with her, once again, so we could be together. She never disrespected me by wanting me to go along with her. I was never forced to go with her,

Then just what the fuck was this post then?

http://board.freeones.com/showpost.php?p=1829350

'My ex girlfriend made me go to church with her but she never made me "worship". I just faked it so she would take my pants off when we got home.'

WTF? Could you please maintain some context when you decide to take offense to my statements?
Read, explain and stick to it, not redefine repeatedly and make a very fluid stance.
Otherwise, don't bother.

My ex girlfriend's mom was super fucking religious and tried to force her beliefs upon 99% of the people she would talk to. I fucking hated going to her house and having to listen to her Bible-thumping rants about how I need to clean up my life.

Well, I don't know what you think of me at this point, but maybe this will make you think differently ...

I not only invite Jahova Witnesses into my house, but they fucking run out of my house within a few minutes!

It's called having solid values with explanations, not just falling back to "oh, well this is right or wrong."
It has to do with being able to back up your views -- which I do regularly on this board -- and I know it bothers people.

She forced her daughter (my ex girlfriend) into a life of religion and to be honest...it fucked her up, A LOT.
Because of her mother's control over her childhood, my ex wasn't 100% "all there" in the head, if you know what I mean.

Because she was weak, okay, I got it now.
Seriously, she was weak, and not solid in her own values, so she just accepted others as her own without considering if they were really hers.
Either that, or they really were her values, and instead of accepting them as her values, you blamed her mother instead.

Blame, blame, blame, deflect personal responsibility, "it's not her fault."

Then you fall back to rape and other things as if it's "no worse" than this.
Sorry, this is the crux of the problem, there is a world of difference between this "alleged" abuse, and something like rape.

Instilling positive religious values in someone else, even if the values are not positive for the other person, is still trying to "do something you think is good."
Parents, teachers, etc... do this every day, for whatever their reasons, many are not perfect, some are extremely judgmental.

But I don't sit and blame my parents or teachers for fucking things up for me at times in my life, I accepted the challenges that came with it.
I didn't let things affect me in the past, I just looked to what I had to do, even if it meant I had to do far more to reverse things if I hadn't been fucked over.
It's called personal responsibility, personal reflection, self-realization and, ultimately, working with what you have been given.

[She was forcefully pushed into a life of religion and she would struggle with it day in and day out, but she didn't know any better.

So she was weak.

[She had a hard time thinking for herself and it took a long, long time for her to realize that she didn't have to live the way that her mother wanted her to.

So she was weak.

[It was extremely painful to watch her struggle while she slowly fought to break out of the mold in which her mother put her in. To this day, she's still not right in the head and I truly believe that it is all due to her mother and the brainwashing that she enforced upon her.

So she was weak.

So the question remains, is it really her mother's fault and you blame her?
Or do you not realize that you accepted you lover's values, because she had her own which she had, regardless where ever they came from?

It sounds like you made more excuse for her than she did for herself.
I actually admire her a bit more now than yourself if this is the case.
At least she had values she was steadfast to, so maybe she wasn't so weak as I thought.

But it's clear that you're only interested in blame, not accepting reality.
Which is why the big ass violin exists in the US, and I have to fire vendors, clients and even employees far too often than I'd like.

 

[ChefChiTown]

Re: For the 3rd time!

Then just what the fuck was this post then?

http://board.freeones.com/showpost.php?p=1829350

'My ex girlfriend made me go to church with her but she never made me "worship". I just faked it so she would take my pants off when we got home.'

You are the ONLY person who took that comment seriously. Other responses to that post...

That's brilliant :1orglaugh

I'm a good christian with the sodomy, cuz it's better to give than to recieve.

I guess guys really can fake it after all. :1orglaugh

I also have some reps for that posts in which people have indicated how funny it was, but I don't believe in posting PM's on a public board, as the P in PM is for "private".

WTF? Could you please maintain some context when you decide to take offense to my statements?

I didn't take any offense to any of your statements. That is, until you chose to say this...

Because she was weak, okay, I got it now.
Seriously, she was weak, and not solid in her own values, so she just accepted others as her own without considering if they were really hers.
Either that, or they really were her values, and instead of accepting them as her values, you blamed her mother instead.

and this...

So she was weak.

and this...

So she was weak.

and, once again...

So she was weak.

My ex-girlfriend always has been and always will be a stronger person than you, no matter how "weak" you THINK she is. But, you know what, maybe you're right!!! Because, making personal attacks towards someone that you don't even know is pretty fucking weak and we all know that it takes one to know one.

I would respond more thouroughly to that, but I respect this community too much to say things that would get me banned.

I apologize to the Mod's and to the other members on this board if that last comment was over the line.