CIA Waterboarded Mohammed 183X in 1 Month, Zubaydah 83X in 1 month

[Facial_King]

So much for the "ticking time bomb" scenario. That's a lot of ticking time-bombs!

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2...mmed-was-waterboarded-183-times-in-one-month/

Excerpt:

On page 37 of the OLC memo, in a passage discussing the differences between SERE techniques and the torture used with detainees, the memo explains:

The CIA used the waterboard "at least 83 times during August 2002" in the interrogation of Zubaydah. IG Report at 90, and 183 times during March 2003 in the interrogation of KSM, see id. at 91.

Note, the information comes from the CIA IG report which, in the case of Abu Zubaydah, is based on having viewed the torture tapes as well as other materials. So this is presumably a number that was once backed up by video evidence.

===

 

[BOOTSY]

The only thing that bothers me is that we went that easy on him...so many terrorist...so few waterboards.....

 

[Facial_King]

Well then, Bootsy, looks like we've already slipped down to the level of our Commie enemies:

"Government studies in the 1950s found that Chinese Communist interrogators had produced false confessions from captured American pilots not with some kind of sinister “brainwashing” but with crude tactics: shackling the Americans toforce them to stand for hours, keeping them in cold cells, disrupting their sleep and limiting access to food and hygiene.

“The Communists do not look upon these assaults as ‘torture,’ ” one 1956 study concluded. “But all of them produce great discomfort, and lead to serious disturbances of many bodily processes; there is no reason to differentiate them from any other form of torture.”

Worse, the study found that under such abusive treatment, a prisoner became “malleable and suggestible, and in some instances he may confabulate.”"

Hmmm.... sound familiar? Oh yeah, now torture can be part of what makes America great, too! (but, like the Commies, we just won't CALL it torture!)

from here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22detain.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&ref=us

 

[girk1]

Well then, Bootsy, looks like we've already slipped down to the level of our Commie enemies:

"Government studies in the 1950s found that Chinese Communist interrogators had produced false confessions from captured American pilots not with some kind of sinister “brainwashing” but with crude tactics: shackling the Americans toforce them to stand for hours, keeping them in cold cells, disrupting their sleep and limiting access to food and hygiene.

Or slipped to the level of our Japanese enemies (WWII)whom we accused of torture for waterboarding & punished with severe prison sentences & (even hanging according to John McCain):



http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834


According to those tortured, like McCain was, a person will give more misleading & downright false infromation if it would get the torturer to stop.

 

[Philbert]

Well then, Bootsy, looks like we've already slipped down to the level of our Commie enemies:

"Government studies in the 1950s found that Chinese Communist interrogators had produced false confessions from captured American pilots not with some kind of sinister “brainwashing” but with crude tactics: shackling the Americans toforce them to stand for hours, keeping them in cold cells, disrupting their sleep and limiting access to food and hygiene.

“The Communists do not look upon these assaults as ‘torture,’ ” one 1956 study concluded. “But all of them produce great discomfort, and lead to serious disturbances of many bodily processes; there is no reason to differentiate them from any other form of torture.”

Worse, the study found that under such abusive treatment, a prisoner became “malleable and suggestible, and in some instances he may confabulate.”"

Hmmm.... sound familiar? Oh yeah, now torture can be part of what makes America great, too! (but, like the Commies, we just won't CALL it torture!)

from here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22detain.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&ref=us

If you wanna call something torture, it don't make it so.

We're the same level as out enemies if we use anything to accomplish our goals that they also do?
OK, then you (and your family) are walking dead. Are you packing already? Better get to another place...maybe Venezuela, you'll be safe there and can speak out freely against the government. Unlike here...
Oh, wait...scratch that.
Maybe you can go underground, there are so many better places to be than the repressive "torturing their enemies" US of A.

 

[girk1]

If you wanna call something torture, it don't make it so.

We're the same level as out enemies if we use anything to accomplish our goals that they also do?
OK, then you (and your family) are walking dead. Are you packing already? Better get to another place...maybe Venezuela, you'll be safe there and can speak out freely against the government. Unlike here...
Oh, wait...scratch that.
Maybe you can go underground, there are so many better places to be than the repressive "torturing their enemies" US of A.

I doubt if anyone would 'suggest' that McCain leave the country although HE feels that waterboarding is 'torture' & 'illegal':


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imIMJjhHqQQ Mccain feels that most information gained will be misinformation & that waterboarding one time is too many.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/29/politics/main3554687.shtml?source=related_story Japanesed hanged imprisoned for waterboarding

McCain's outright claim that it is torture & that 'overall' it is counterproductive/ineffective is compelling considering his firsthand history with torture.

 

[meesterperfect]

i agree with facal 100%
the US has a history of using cruel methods of torture on its prisoners.
what they did to this freedom fighter was a terrible terrible thing.

They capture people be it military or civillian, shackle and decapitate them on video, throw them off 3 story building, just enough to break most bones, murder babies in front of parents, gang rape women, chop off body parts, electrocute, gas to death , ect ect.
And now this waterboarding has crossed the line.

The UNITED STATES is evil and needs to be crushed.

And I'm with facial about this freedom fighter.
I don't care about the pain, death and suffering this man did to the civilians of the USA.
All the people he killed.
that doesnt matter because he didnt kill me or anyone I know and because of my deep rooted guilt complex.
All they really needed to do was use calm cool reasoning with him to get info.
maybe offer him a cigarette or a pastry and I'm sure he would have co operated.

 

[Friday on my mind]

i agree with facal 100%
the US has a history of using cruel methods of torture on its prisoners.
what they did to this freedom fighter was a terrible terrible thing.

They capture people be it military or civillian, shackle and decapitate them on video, throw them off 3 story building, just enough to break most bones, murder babies in front of parents, gang rape women, chop off body parts, electrocute, gas to death , ect ect.
And now this waterboarding has crossed the line.

The UNITED STATES is evil and needs to be crushed.

And I'm with facial about this freedom fighter.
I don't care about the pain, death and suffering this man did to the civilians of the USA.
All the people he killed.
that doesnt matter because he didnt kill me or anyone I know and because of my deep rooted guilt complex.
All they really needed to do was use calm cool reasoning with him to get info.
maybe offer him a cigarette or a pastry and I'm sure he would have co operated.

Mr P I know you said all that sarcastically but I have to tell you that almost all the experts in interrogation would say that the far more effective way of getting true infornation from a subject is what you mention at the end of your post.The only time the harsher methods should be used as they are far less reliable is when you have the situation known as the ticking time bomb scenario where time is of the esscence.Thay may not suit some who want to use the interrogation as a way to exact revenge and retribution against the subjects but really those kinds of emotional motivations have no place is such serious matters do they? When people talk of horror stories of abuses performed as an example under the saddam regime lets keep in mind those were not instances of trying to gather info but just pure examples of brutality for brutalities sake.With maybe the only real bigger message sent to some others being carefull or you may be next.Is that what you want us to be?:dunno:

 

[meesterperfect]

not at all friday.
yes you are correct that saddams examples were more for toture for tortures sake that actually to obtain info.
brutality.
And it may seem by my writing that i want revenge in the form of torture but thatis not the case.
I want whats best for national security of the people, the children
So if i must decide over the potential death of many more civilians or even military or the pain a mass murdering religious jihad kill the infidel terrorist might go through, i'll go with the torture everytime.
Its not personal,not revenge, its about getting info that may save lives.

I just can't believe that people of today would pity a terrorist mass murderer and condemn people who are trying to protect them and save lives.
What needs to happen to get people to understand?
Another attack, even bigger this time.?

And to everybody living:
This is just a democrat/media smokescreen.
nothing more.
The people of the US, many at least are not pleased with obamas actions.
So the democrat/media makes the TOP STORY this week about hating BUSH again and those evil republicans.
Taking focus off whats really happening.
Smoke screen, diversion.

 

[bustybbwlover]

torture
• noun 1 the infliction of severe pain as a punishment or a forcible means of persuasion. 2 great suffering or anxiety.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/torture?view=uk
i think waterboarding is a forcible means of persuasion

 

[Facetious]

CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

Umm, yeah, it's not like these guy don't train for this stuff. :dunno:
Oh well, at least the "shake" has been recognized in the Guinness Book of World Records for th' H2º board.

Do they get money for that ? :tongue:

 

[Shindekudasai]

torture
• noun 1 the infliction of severe pain as a punishment or a forcible means of persuasion. 2 great suffering or anxiety.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/torture?view=uk
i think waterboarding is a forcible means of persuasion

Once again, thank you very much. I'd like to rep you, but it'll have to wait till I spread some more around.

What happened there was torture, there is no discussing that. To quote a famous American: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I would call it a duck.
But lately, there is a trend in the US towards a different understanding of what is "reality". Words and meanings are twisted or ignored unscrupulously, just to be always in the right. Or to use the "duck test" again: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it could be a dragon doing a duck impersonation. (Or some programmer said once: "Don't check whether it IS-a duck: check whether it QUACKS-like-a duck, WALKS-like-a duck, etc, etc, depending on exactly what subset of duck-like behaviour you need to play your language-games with.")

What concerns me the most, is that even physicians were present during these tortures to control the effect. When confronted with the sentence "do no harm" (primum non nocere), the most important medical injunction, one actually said, he had been there to prevent greater harm for the prisoner. Well, in fact, as the protocols state, they were there to make sure the prisoners get tortured just to the point where they can't continue and not beyond that point, to make sure that the torture can be continued later. If that's not twisting reality, I don't know what is.

 

[Boothbabe]

What needs to happen to get people to understand?

It seems to me a lot of people in America still don't get it. You're not fighting against people, people are just the tool. You're fighting against a mindset, an idea. Instead of creating conditions wich allow terrorism to flourish you should be building bridges. If you really want peace, that's the only way to go.

 

[Legzman]

so...whats the problem? Waterboarding. Seriously? Thats it? You think when they capture one of our people they treat them nicely? Think again! They do much worse to their prisoners that a fucking waterboard!

 

[Mr D]

Awwwww how sad. We should all feel bad and do more to protect the terrorist, they are such nice people. Fuck these towel heads.

 

[Legzman]

Fuck these towel heads.

Now thats just downright offensive! :thefinger

they prefer to be called sheet heads...

 

[Boothbabe]

^ At least two people still don't get it.

 

[Facetious]

[ . .You're fighting against a mindset, an idea.

Not a radical religious ideology ?

[ . . you should be building bridges. If you really want peace, that's the only way to go.

For instance ?

 

[Boothbabe]

Not a radical religious ideology ?

For instance ?

A radical religious ideology consists of a set of ideas. As for building bridges, why don't you start with creating allies instead of enemies. There are a lot of muslims who want terrorism to stop just as much as you.

 

[Legzman]

^ At least two people still don't get it.

maybe you could explain to us, then, why we should give a fuck about these terrorist? And treat them like the human beings that they are not!