Jane Burgess
Official Checked Star Member
Everyone that is a politician lies. :2 cents:
CIA Waterboarded Mohammed 183X in 1 Month, Zubaydah 83X in 1 month
- Thread starter Facial_King
- Start date
Everyone that is a politician lies. :2 cents:
Then that a lot of people being waterboarded!
well there's the federal level, the legislative level, the state level, the county level, and local level and of just the local level there are 87,000 governments....madness! waterboarding for life!
BioDefenseGrad
Banned
It looks like things are coming down on the side of rendition/enhanced technique people. The renditions may continue and the door has been left open for most things (probably not waterboarding) if the situation gets that desperate again.
The CIA banned water boarding in '07 and it was signed off on by Bush. Which begs the obvious questions; If it's legal, effective and has allegedly saved "thousands of lives"...why in the world would Bush/Cheney allow Hayden to ban it???
I'd just like to say how disgusting it is nowadays for any country - especially a developed country and the only super-power left in the world which is a self-styled chapion of freedom, democracy and human rights - to use such tactic no matter how bad their situation.
Looking back at history though, this seems like a classic case of the kind of stupidity caused by times of extreme pressure, and crumbling power and influence. Though kids in some 100 years time when the Chinese are the super-power will be taught that these cruel tactics caused the downfall of the evil US empire.
The US is already losing badly in Iraq, with the Maliki government poised as there future puppets like the Jordanians and Saudis having back-stabbed the US and ran to the Iranian Ayatollahs, who have so much more influence and exploitation in Iraq. Now the priority is cut the loses in Iraq short and at least win in Afghanistan to not completly flat-out fail the war on terror. But that too doesn't look too promising either with Pakistan over the border.
I guess every dog has his day. As my grandfather used to say - even Pharoah's mighty empire and army had their downfall after Moses.
Oh, and it's great to be back guys :wave2: - for anyone who remmebers me. I've been bussy making the transition into uni and getting hammered senseless every night and studying like I never studied before during the day.
Looking back at history though, this seems like a classic case of the kind of stupidity caused by times of extreme pressure, and crumbling power and influence. Though kids in some 100 years time when the Chinese are the super-power will be taught that these cruel tactics caused the downfall of the evil US empire.
The US is already losing badly in Iraq, with the Maliki government poised as there future puppets like the Jordanians and Saudis having back-stabbed the US and ran to the Iranian Ayatollahs, who have so much more influence and exploitation in Iraq. Now the priority is cut the loses in Iraq short and at least win in Afghanistan to not completly flat-out fail the war on terror. But that too doesn't look too promising either with Pakistan over the border.
I guess every dog has his day. As my grandfather used to say - even Pharoah's mighty empire and army had their downfall after Moses.
Oh, and it's great to be back guys :wave2: - for anyone who remmebers me. I've been bussy making the transition into uni and getting hammered senseless every night and studying like I never studied before during the day.
Who says they are terrorists? If anyone's got any proof, why not convict them infront of any national or international tribunal?
Not that US courts hold any wieght of justice in my opinion - proven and undesputed five/six counts of murder in cold blood and raping a 12 year old, and no death sentence?
Yet tortured to hell and back men, with no proof from anybody and your calling for their blood?
Wow, just wow.
meesterperfect
Hiliary 2020
wow this thread is like an everlasting gobstopper.
this is an extremely extreme case.
this guy did plan september 11th.
september fucking 11th!
all those people, all the pain, all the ruined lives ,affected everybody, changed the country.
it doesnt get much more extreme than that.
so they waterboarded him for info on the attacks and more importantly on future attacks.
extreme times call for extreme measures.
its either that or risk a very strong possiblity of more senseless murders of civillians in the USA.
which none of us want to see, i think.
this is an extremely extreme case.
this guy did plan september 11th.
september fucking 11th!
all those people, all the pain, all the ruined lives ,affected everybody, changed the country.
it doesnt get much more extreme than that.
so they waterboarded him for info on the attacks and more importantly on future attacks.
extreme times call for extreme measures.
its either that or risk a very strong possiblity of more senseless murders of civillians in the USA.
which none of us want to see, i think.
yeaaah...abandon our principles every time things get hard, that'll show em!
OK I have read enough BS from people who have never served in our (The U.S.) military on this subject in this thread. I am not going to try and filter through another 14 pages to see if this was mentioned.
As an American Special Forces Soilder I have been trained to resist water boarding, it's no big deal to mention that because if anyone who posted a whole mess of BS on this thread actually knew anything about this issue they would have known that it has been mentioned within the media that we do get this type of training.
So it is OK for me to be waterboarded because we know that others use the method because it has been proven to actually work in getting a good and accurate result (anyone who says otherwise is full of shit) but it is not OK for a U.S. interrogator to use the method on someone that we know intends to harm innocent women, children, and other helpless individuals?
That is the very diffinition of hypocrisy.
I am just glad that in our state controled media zeal to make this sound so bad that other details of our SERE training were not revealed.
As an American Special Forces Soilder I have been trained to resist water boarding, it's no big deal to mention that because if anyone who posted a whole mess of BS on this thread actually knew anything about this issue they would have known that it has been mentioned within the media that we do get this type of training.
So it is OK for me to be waterboarded because we know that others use the method because it has been proven to actually work in getting a good and accurate result (anyone who says otherwise is full of shit) but it is not OK for a U.S. interrogator to use the method on someone that we know intends to harm innocent women, children, and other helpless individuals?
That is the very diffinition of hypocrisy.
I am just glad that in our state controled media zeal to make this sound so bad that other details of our SERE training were not revealed.
Philbert
Banned
Please...before you get upset with the "handwringing, loss-of-moral-highground lamenting, let's-waterboard-Bush/Cheney/Hannity/Limbaugh-and-other-fat-old-men-but-never-those-poor-unfairly-accused-Afghan/Syrian/Iranian-farmers-and-shopkeepers-we-keep-snatching-up-after-firefights-just-'cause-they-are-carrying-RPGs-and-AKs" concerned citizens and FreeOnes posters, remember that both Hot Mega and Mancow have testified that waterboarding is torture...just because AlQuada has been on the run and trying to just find someplace to hunker down and safely resume terror ops planning for upwards of 8 years, and we haven't had the slightest big or little BOOM here in the US, doesn't really justify using "mean" tactics if we want to wring intel from some major players.
There's no comparison between saving lives and defeating terror ops, versus acting "uncivilized"...better to clean up body parts and let our fellow citizens die than to go over that line.
I fully expect Pelosi, or Boxer, or some other Obama minion to begin revealing plenty of other secret and crippling info; Biden shared with the world where they stashed the VP during crisis mode, so that's now an easy target until they spend a few millions to create a new hiding place for our country's second in command...although I'm sure they'd gladly give the enemy strike force Biden's exact position if Pelosi wasn't the next in line.:rofl:
Now that's terrifying...a junior Senator from Illinois fumbling and bumbling his way through his first year as Commander in Chief, backed up by "Big Mouth" Joe and "No-No" Nancy...if the terrorists and Jihadis were smart, they'd just back off and let the whole "Duck Soup" scenario play out and we'd be easy pickings after a few years of Groucho, Zeppo, and Harpy.
:rofl2:
Major players? Terrorists?
Who the fuck says those guys are infact anything past some poor Arabs that are in the wrong place at the wrong time?
If anyone got any proof that they were terrorists, or were picked up after firefights with guns in their hands or an atom of proof of guilt, why the fuck are they not being tried? Instead no-one is taking them to court as they are merely scapegoats who happen to have the wrong names - and I don't mean names that have anything to do with past records. Otherwise - funnily enough - they'd be tried. And then, anything is fair game.
Hell, if one of them is even remotely responsible for the death of some of my family members murdered in cold blood by cowardly Paki A Qaeda members, I'd be willing to kill anyone in my way stopping me from torturing them my own way for vengence.
However, like I said, no court case = no justice = no proof = we are just as bad as them.
Who the fuck says those guys are infact anything past some poor Arabs that are in the wrong place at the wrong time?
If anyone got any proof that they were terrorists, or were picked up after firefights with guns in their hands or an atom of proof of guilt, why the fuck are they not being tried? Instead no-one is taking them to court as they are merely scapegoats who happen to have the wrong names - and I don't mean names that have anything to do with past records. Otherwise - funnily enough - they'd be tried. And then, anything is fair game.
Hell, if one of them is even remotely responsible for the death of some of my family members murdered in cold blood by cowardly Paki A Qaeda members, I'd be willing to kill anyone in my way stopping me from torturing them my own way for vengence.
However, like I said, no court case = no justice = no proof = we are just as bad as them.
Wow..Well I too served and I'm SERE Level C qualified out of NAS Brunswick. I too experienced simulated water boarding as a part of my training.
As far as my experience with water boarding goes, I and others undergoing the training were subjected various methods and phases of the technique for the purposes of familiarizing us with it physically and psychologically. We were then instructed on various techniques to resist it physically and psychologically. It is a voluntary circumstance and it's performed on us by individuals who were not our enemy. In that context, it's simulated and not torture.
Most people familiar with the technique and torture in general believe it's not reliable for yielding quality, actionable intelligence. The only people I've seen in the media (politicians, radio/tv hosts and reporters) who claim it works have no apparent credibility nor experience with it. It is useful for getting a subject to confess to or make statements you want them to make.
It's pretty well known John McCain was tortured in Vietnam. As a result he made numerous anti American statements, confessed to being a war criminal and among other things bombing a school. Do you believe he was telling the truth?
Lastly, the biggest indictment against it being effective is the reports that these two individuals had it employed against them a combined 266 times in one month. If that is the definition of something working to save lives from imminent threat then your definition of "works" or "working" is different from any traditional application or use of the word I'm familiar with.
Please...before you get upset with the "handwringing, loss-of-moral-highground lamenting, let's-waterboard-Bush/Cheney/Hannity/Limbaugh-and-other-fat-old-men-but-never-those-poor-unfairly-accused-Afghan/Syrian/Iranian-farmers-and-shopkeepers-we-keep-snatching-up-after-firefights-just-'cause-they-are-carrying-RPGs-and-AKs" concerned citizens and FreeOnes posters, remember that both Hot Mega and Mancow have testified that waterboarding is torture...just because AlQuada has been on the run and trying to just find someplace to hunker down and safely resume terror ops planning for upwards of 8 years, and we haven't had the slightest big or little BOOM here in the US, doesn't really justify using "mean" tactics if we want to wring intel from some major players.
There's no comparison between saving lives and defeating terror ops, versus acting "uncivilized"...better to clean up body parts and let our fellow citizens die than to go over that line.
I fully expect Pelosi, or Boxer, or some other Obama minion to begin revealing plenty of other secret and crippling info; Biden shared with the world where they stashed the VP during crisis mode, so that's now an easy target until they spend a few millions to create a new hiding place for our country's second in command...although I'm sure they'd gladly give the enemy strike force Biden's exact position if Pelosi wasn't the next in line.:rofl:
Now that's terrifying...a junior Senator from Illinois fumbling and bumbling his way through his first year as Commander in Chief, backed up by "Big Mouth" Joe and "No-No" Nancy...if the terrorists and Jihadis were smart, they'd just back off and let the whole "Duck Soup" scenario play out and we'd be easy pickings after a few years of Groucho, Zeppo, and Harpy.
:rofl2:
Oh, it looks like you fellows missed the relevant links I posted
http://board.freeones.com/showpost.php?p=3250130&postcount=29
over in the "Mancow waterboarded" thread (which Philbert seems to have retreated from), involving the views of interrogation and SERE training experts:
http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07294/826876-35.stm
Read 'em and weep, fellas! Tell you what, though - if you two are so gung-ho on these "enhanced interrogation tactics" maybe you could waterboard each other to find out what makes people like yourselves tick?? Now that would be some useful information, and since waterboarding is acceptable and useful in your eyes, maybe you could get it for me!
:hatsoff::glugglug::thumbsup:
^^^
Whatever "equivanents" are... Is that a fruit?
Whatever "equivanents" are... Is that a fruit?
Maybe the title for the thread should be changed to "When Losing a debate, resort to name calling".
I for some reason based on this post and a lot of your other posts (particularly those involving military history) doubt that you have ever been in any branch of the U.S. Military.
The level C certification is a DOD requirement (not an actual Military one) for anyone that has high capture risk job, including civilians working on some DOD contracts. It is a very minimal requirement, most people who just need the C certification are pilots in 'non combat' roles.
Anyone requireing more intinsive training is either sent to North Carolina or Colorado.
As for the evidence of the technique actually working, well last time I checked Los Angeles was not missing any of it's tall buildings and the Parliament clock is still standing in London. I would say without revealing anyother sensative data that so far it has a pretty good track record of providing actionable intelligence without actually causing harm to a subject.
Well if it actually caused harm then it would be torture...
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