CIA Man (Kiriakou) Retracts Claim That Waterboarding Worked

[Facial_King]

...or that it MUST HAVE worked...

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/26/cia_man_retracts_claim_on_waterboarding?page=0,0

Excerpt:

"What I told Brian Ross in late 2007 was wrong on a couple counts," he writes. "I suggested that Abu Zubaydah had lasted only thirty or thirty-five seconds during his waterboarding before he begged his interrogators to stop; after that, I said he opened up and gave the agency actionable intelligence."

But never mind, he says now.

"I wasn't there when the interrogation took place; instead, I relied on what I'd heard and read inside the agency at the time."

n a word, it was hearsay, water-cooler talk.

"Now we know," Kiriakou goes on, "that Zubaydah was waterboarded eighty-three times in a single month, raising questions about how much useful information he actually supplied."

Indeed. But after his one-paragraph confession, Kiriakou adds that he didn't have any first hand knowledge of anything relating to CIA torture routines, and still doesn't. And he claims that the disinformation he helped spread was a CIA dirty trick: "In retrospect, it was a valuable lesson in how the CIA uses the fine arts of deception even among its own."

 

[meesterperfect]

Lets all have a "Torture: Right or Wrong" debate!
I'll start by saying sometimes torture is the only way to get info in order to save an innocent person or many lives.

I like to use this example: If someone had your kid, wife, dad, sister ect held somewhere , would you torture someone to save them?

Lets let the CIA do what they think is necessary and stop being so self rightious about it, as a country

 

[JayJohn85]

Man that old example lol. Ok truth be told you would only want to torture them cause of your emotional involvement which then would mean you arent subjective, More effective would be to get the subjects family in and threaten to torture them but not actually do any torturing.

Torture is bullshit its not effective in any way, People will say anything when under pain or in fear of it.

 

[Supafly]

Torture is bullshit its not effective in any way, People will say anything when under pain or in fear of it.

Exactly. And the other thing is - what if there are certain statements the agency needs on a political level?

If you need proof of a threat from certain areas, groups or people, just ask the right questions and you can get any bullshit you need to pull out of your pocket in the senate to push another couple billions in useless wars.

 

[hedonis]

Let's all scour the internet until we find news articles and blogs and such that we agree with!

 

[Facial_King]

Let's all scour the internet until we find news articles and blogs and such that we agree with!

Wow, I guess since people have different opinions on things then there's never any real right or wrong, or what is true must simply be precisely in the middle between the two extremes!

Conversation and discussion are pointless!

 

[Jack Davenport]

A climatologist once said that climate change didn't exist. And all the conservatives were gleeful


True story


It was posted on the intrawebs.

 

[Mrs Jolly]

Lets all have a "Torture: Right or Wrong" debate!
I'll start by saying sometimes torture is the only way to get info in order to save an innocent person or many lives.

I like to use this example: If someone had your kid, wife, dad, sister ect held somewhere , would you torture someone to save them?

Lets let the CIA do what they think is necessary and stop being so self rightious about it, as a country

Er, lets just have an unregulated secret police force have a free hand to do as they see fit, up to and including murder and torture. I'm sure I can think of some examples of why this is a bad idea. Unless you have confused the A-team for the CIA then I'm all for it.

 

[meesterperfect]

you didnt answer the question, no one did.
because they know exactly what they would do.
hurt the guy until you found out where your family member is.
if not, you a a heartless person.

All this talk always about how we torture prisoners shows me what a pussy, self loathing people we have become.
why all the concern?
Accept it, extreme situations sometimes warrant extreme actions
Unless torture becomes so common that its being done to too many, i'm gonna let the CIA and soldiers in combat do what they feel is necessary at the time without crying about it and condemning them.

 

[Facial_King]

Lets all have a "Torture: Right or Wrong" debate!
I'll start by saying sometimes torture is the only way to get info in order to save an innocent person or many lives.

I like to use this example: If someone had your kid, wife, dad, sister ect held somewhere , would you torture someone to save them?

Lets let the CIA do what they think is necessary and stop being so self rightious about it, as a country

You're creating a wild, extreme hypothetical situation involving KIDNAPPING and comparing that to a secret government policy involving TERRORISM suspects being held in indefinite custody without trial, sometimes in secret locations, being tortured to get possible information about possible attacks.

If SOMEONE had my wife, kid, dad, sister, etc. held "somewhere" I wouldn't torture "someone" to save them... I WOULD torture someone directly involved in their kidnapping/imprisonment IF 1) I was absolutely certain they were involved and 2) I knew that if I didn't act immediately that their life or well-being would be in jeopardy and 3) there wasn't time or the possibility for any law enforcement authorities to assist in the situation.

That is infinitely different than yanking some guy out of his house, shuttling him blindfolded through several countries and then waterboarding him because someone is pretty sure that they could get some actionable intelligence (a la the repeated scenarios in "24") to prevent another 9/11-style attack. As others have noted, torture is bogus and simply doesn't work anyway - the person is just as likely to tell you whatever is necessary to make you stop torturing them... Also, if the person knows enough to KNOW and be SURE that there is an imminent attack, that person almost certainly will have other sources and other avenues to interfere with the attack or prevent it outright.

 

[meesterperfect]

you know what? i dont care, thats my point.
why should any descent person care?
this guy is a top ranking al qaeda terrorist.
how many innocent people has he been involved in killing?
how many more has he tried to kill?
alot.
you are defending a bad guy fk, a killer of innocents.
so i dont care what bad things happen to this guy, why do you or anybody else?

After his capture, Zubaydah provided intelligence officials with leads to Ramzi bin al-Shibh, who also was captured in Pakistan. Bin al-Shibh was part of the Hamburg, Germany, cell of Al Qaeda where Sept. 11 hijacker Mohammed Atta was stationed.

The information from Zubaydah and bin al-Shibh led to the capture in the spring of 2003 of Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the confessed architect of the Sept. 11 attacks, according to U.S. officials.

Zubaydah also provided significant information on two operatives, including Jose Padilla, who planned to detonate a dirty bomb in the Washington, D.C., area, the officials noted.

i know he's a killer, you know it, and the GOV knows it.
so if causing this guy some pain or discomfort saves i little kid or someones mom from getting blown up into a bloody mess, then so be it.

 

[hedonis]

Wow, I guess since people have different opinions on things then there's never any real right or wrong, or what is true must simply be precisely in the middle between the two extremes!

Conversation and discussion are pointless!

Wow- guess I forgot to use the sarcasm font.

 

[Facial_King]

you know what? i dont care, thats my point.
why should any descent [sic] person care?
this guy is a top ranking al qaeda terrorist.
how many innocent people has he been involved in killing?
how many more has he tried to kill?
alot.
you are defending a bad guy fk, a killer of innocents.
so i dont care what bad things happen to this guy, why do you or anybody else?
....

i know he's a killer, you know it, and the GOV knows it.
so if causing this guy some pain or discomfort saves i little kid or someones mom from getting blown up into a bloody mess, then so be it.

Here's why I care:

1. Because having a policy that allows and approves torture brings us closer to the barbarism that we're supposed to be fighting against.

2. Because I think that the idea that one is innocent until proven guilty is so great that it should always apply.

3. Because the "ticking time bomb scenario" is the exceptional scenario being used to make a rule that will allow prisoners to be tortured in situations that are nothing like some moment in "24" with Jack Bauer. We don't need any government law/policy/sanctioning of torture for that ultra-rare event. If it should ever happen, I'm sure that a hero will appear and do what's necessary, and be acquitted of all wrongdoing since he/she will have clearly acted to save lives (and successfully did so).

4. Because sometimes, despite all the "you know it and I know it" cocksure rhetoric about some terrorist who has it coming even if he doesn't provide us with any actionable intelligence, that "known terrorist" turns out to be someone like Maher Arar or Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr

http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/09/here-is-moral-authority-of-us-under.html

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/11/03/arar/index.html

who ends up getting tortured despite being innocent.

5. I see no reason to believe that the torture would not - or does not - eventually come to include things such as genital slicing, electrical shocks, fingernail-pulling, burning, etc. If torture's acceptable, then the methods will just be ratcheted up in barbarity the more sure someone is that the suspect knows something and the more stubborn that suspect might appear to be in giving them the info that the torturer needs/wants.

6. Lastly, and certainly LEAST - the effectiveness of torture in getting useful information to save lives is debatable, AT BEST.

:2 cents:

 

[D-rock]

why should any descent person care?

Really, just let that statement roll around in your head and think about it logically for a second. They care because they are decent people. That one would condone torture means one isn’t decent. The fact you can actually ask that question and not see the sad irony in it should tell you something about yourself.

 

[Ace Bandage]

Torture is bullshit its not effective in any way, People will say anything when under pain or in fear of it.

Yeah, but he's a terrorist; he already forfeited his humanity. I don't care what happens to him, and I don't care how they get him to talk. As long as he gives the information, it doesn't matter to me how it's acquired. There are actions by our military and our government that I don't need to know about. All I need to know is that they're effective. The end justifies the means.

 

[Hot Mega]

Yeah, but he's a terrorist; he already forfeited his humanity. I don't care what happens to him, and I don't care how they get him to talk. As long as he gives the information, it doesn't matter to me how it's acquired. There are actions by our military and our government that I don't need to know about. All I need to know is that they're effective. The end justifies the means.

So A/R...a "terrorist" commits more heinous acts than any of some of the more gruesome crimes committed within our borders by other vicious criminals?

As horrible a crime as Tim McVeigh committed...he was still (as he should have been) afforded the right to due process.:2 cents:

 

[meesterperfect]

Really, just let that statement roll around in your head and think about it logically for a second. They care because they are decent people. That one would condone torture means one isn’t decent. The fact you can actually ask that question and not see the sad irony in it should tell you something about yourself.

nice post facial.
D i think the only sad thing here is that you put the comfort and well being of a mass murderer who in all likelyhood wants to and plans on murdering more and is connected to the same kind of people ahead of the people he's killed and may kill and may be involved in killing.

torture everybody no, torture serious terror leaders like this yes, if it is clear he has info that may save innocent lives.

remember when dirty harry was stepping on scorpios shot leg saying wheres the girl?
well that works a little better than please, all i'm saying is sometimes its necessary.

 

[Facial_King]

Yeah, but he's a terrorist; he already forfeited his humanity. I don't care what happens to him, and I don't care how they get him to talk. As long as he gives the information, it doesn't matter to me how it's acquired. There are actions by our military and our government that I don't need to know about. All I need to know is that they're effective. The end justifies the means.

So, does one forfeit their humanity when they engage in torture?

Does one forfeit their humanity when they give their government license to do anything at all, without oversight, in secret, so long as it is ultimately "effective"?? (Killing every single Muslim everywhere would be effective in preventing any future terrorist attacks by Muslims).

You do realize, of course, that terrorists themselves justify their actions with the idea that "the end justifies the means" - right??