CIA Waterboarded Mohammed 183X in 1 Month, Zubaydah 83X in 1 month

[georges]

And this is what it all boils down to.

That's what this argument really boils down to -- it's not pro- or anti-torture, it's pro- or anti-cowardice. Are you willing to take the risks inherent in being a free people who respect the rule of law or are you more inclined to be a fair-weather patriot who believes in American values only so long as they're convenient?. Are you willing to accept that bravery is required of a free people or are you going to embrace your inner coward?

Let me chime in. Here is my perception of the rule of law: the rule of law is a definition of dos and don'ts specific in the country where you are living in and it is not a global world wide rule of law. It is defined by a constitution where the rights are written. Freedom isn't free and remember: the freedom of ones stops where the freedom of others begins.
What is exactly your problem with American values??? :wtf::dunno:You go to the theatre and see American movies or watch American TV series, you like other people like a lot of the American culture (coca cola, disney, etc) and values, like in any country there is honesty, integrity, law abidence and patriotism. You think that European countries and values are so much better than the USA??? You are very wrong because some European countries are slowly losing their identity. A country that doesn't stand for itself but who is more concentrated and focused to solve other countries problems, has not understood something. Before solving others countries problems, solve your own problems.If many European people didn't believe in American values and in the Marshall plan, they wouldn't be able to rebuild Europe but I guess gratefulness isn't integrated in the education of many European people.
Bravery, define it. Bravery is fighting for the interests of your country against rogue countries that are willing to harm it in any kind of way, it is also taking efficient actions when they are needed. You will always obey the constitution of the country where you live in unless you are a convicted criminal who has no respect for the customs and habits for the country where you are living in. Inner coward? Define it please. A coward is anyone surrendering and unwilling to fight or take actions going in the interest of his country when it is needed. A coward accepts a book from a dictator of a country that hates USA and accepts to knee in front of the Saudi king. A man with pride and who stands for his country will never accept this. Anyone who is too weakminded and who thinks the policy of compromise and negociation will always work is definitely out of his mind and out of the reality. A coward always goes against the interests of his country but always accept to serve others countries interests.

 

[georges]

Compared to your recent posting it's running circles in the logic. Looking at what he said, he makes a well thought out point if maybe using some hyperbole to make it, if one is actually paying attention and being subjective about what he's saying instead of automatically dismissing it. You can't preemptively consider that any human that might possibly do something in the future, will do it, and use that when you have no evidence what he is going to do or even has done and continue to punish him based on that principle. That pretty much goes against every moral, ethical, and even judicial belief that the world's civilized societies have had for hundreds of years now. True it's always possible somebody might do something, but if we went on that way of thinking we could pretty much have justification to lock up every human on the planet if we wanted to. Remember our country, and pretty much every western civilization now believes it's "innocent until proven guilty", not you have to prove yourself innocent before don't keep you locked up for as long as we want. It's one of our most cherished beliefs about justice.

Allowing harm to come to people when you don't try to stop it is stupid. Of course you conveniently don't even recognize that wasn’t what boothbabe was saying at all. While protecting yourself in the name of self-defense is justifiable, feeling one has the right to do absolutely anything they want to reach that goal isn't. Just because one doesn’t resort to torture doesn't mean they somehow believe they should just roll over and allow themselves to get hurt, or they are soft. Of course people with your position always try to paint them that way. It means they have principles they won't cast aside. Standing up for your principles when they aren't the most convenient options is bravery, and it's not an easy thing to do. It is most certainly not a "failure of character". I can only feel deep pity for you if you actually believe that. I agree with her and think that when people dump their and their country’s most deeply held beliefs as soon as they are not convenient anymore to be a pretty cowardly act. Now that's a colossal failure of character. Even the terrorist we fight against aren't hypocritical like that.

Preemptive thinking isn't wrong, if you don't take precautions you can get yourself in troubles. Everyone has a record, so it is easy to see who is who and what they have done in the past.
I am for self defense and I am for death penalty, I am also for using deadly force with extremely dangerous people like sex offenders, serial rapists, serial killers and gang members because they are scum and they are irrecuperable garbage that pollute streets.

 

[bodie54]

A coward accepts a book from a dictator of a country that hates USA and accepts to knee in front of the Saudi king.

You're playing fast and loose with reality here, georges. If you hope to win hearts and influence minds you'll need to present actual facts rather than inaccurate, absolutist accusations based on a perspective warped by the desire for consistent cognition.

The latter is something our old friend Fox was famous for, and I know you don't want to emulate him.

 

[Boothbabe]

I'm going to ignore georges from now on because his ramblings are beginning to make less sense as time goes by.

 

[bustybbwlover]

there are two ways people are arguing: 1)pro-torture in general, 2)semantically about what torture is. for the latter, it seems like if we've got to argue about whether or not it is torture, there's a good chance it's not something we want our government doing. now for the pro-torture people, well fuck, that's just a difference of opinion which won't be remedied by any argument. some people think our government should never torture anyone as it reflects poorly upon what this nation stands for others think torture in certain situations is acceptable.

 

[georges]

I'm going to ignore georges from now on because his ramblings are beginning to make less sense as time goes by.

and you think your ramblings make sense? You are comfortably sitting in your chair and living in the Netherlands and you have certainly not a single relatives in the USA, I have been 9 times there so I know perhaps more than you about this country. It is always easy to blame the USA for the deeds or other countries, perhaps it is time for you to stop whining.

 

[Boothbabe]

First of all, I do have relatives living in the USA but I don't see how involving them in this argument is going to do this thread any good. I don't need them to make a point (WOW, I mean WOW! georges has been to the USA 9 times! He's now officially the resident freeones expert on all things related to the USA)

Secondly, I haven't blamed America for the deeds of other countries.

Thirdly, this thread is about wether or not torture is justifiable wich has more to do with how you conduct yourself as a human being than with the USA.

 

[skechers]

Lets take the legal standpoint out of the argument for just a moment.

Are we this afraid of our "enemies", we have to torture? To help make us safe? When did we become cowards here at home?

Is this what the US means to you?

 

[georges]

First of all, I do have relatives living in the USA but I don't see how involving them in this argument is going to do this thread any good. I don't need them to make a point (WOW, I mean WOW! georges has been to the USA 9 times! He's now officially the resident freeones expert on all things related to the USA)

Secondly, I haven't blamed America for the deeds of other countries.

Thirdly, this thread is about wether or not torture is justifiable wich has more to do with how you conduct yourself as a human being than with the USA.

Ok, you have relatives in USA but are or were they in law enforcement or in the military??? Mine had, I don't know about yours. I am not an expert of all things related to usa but I know far more than some socialist european brainless tools that only know to knee blindly in front of liberals, for instance like kissing Obama's ass and blame Republicans for all aches of America. The thing is that during the Iran Contra affair some American citizens were tortured and killed by Iranians, perhaps I should mention also terrorist attacks against civilian planes: the twa flight 847 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_847_hijacking and the twa flight 841 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_841_(1974).
Do you expect terrorists to be so cooperative without using strong methods?? Do you honestely think they will tell you one thing in order to save their life?? Please get real. It is not with softie methods that you will get results especially from a terrorist or a convicted felon with a heavy filled record. I don't have a single ounce of sympathy or pity for scum like terrorists, serial rapists, gang members, serial killers and arsonists.

 

[skechers]

Ok, you have relatives in USA but are or were they in law enforcement or in the military??? Mine had, I don't know about yours. I am not an expert of all things related to usa but I know far more than some socialist european brainless tools that only know to knee blindly in front of liberals, for instance like kissing Obama's ass and blame Republicans for all aches of America. The thing is that during the Iran Contra affair some American citizens were tortured and killed by Iranians, perhaps I should mention also terrorist attacks against civilian planes: the twa flight 847 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_847_hijacking and the twa flight 841 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_841_(1974).
Do you expect terrorists to be so cooperative without using strong methods?? Do you honestely think they will tell you one thing in order to save their life?? Please get real. It is not with softie methods that you will get results especially from a terrorist or a convicted felon with a heavy filled record. I don't have a single ounce of sympathy or pity for scum like terrorists, serial rapists, gang members, serial killers and arsonists.

Because they do it to us, that makes it fine, okay or even "right" to do it to them?

as for this...

Please get real. It is not with softie methods that you will get results especially from a terrorist or a convicted felon with a heavy filled record.

I'd like you to site some sources. Give some proof. Media sponsored poles do not count, becuase that is called Propaganda, and I trust it as far as I could throw the entire CNN/Fox News/MSNBC/Whateva crew.

 

[georges]

You're playing fast and loose with reality here, georges. If you hope to win hearts and influence minds you'll need to present actual facts rather than inaccurate, absolutist accusations based on a perspective warped by the desire for consistent cognition.

The latter is something our old friend Fox was famous for, and I know you don't want to emulate him.

Look since I am on this board, I have heard, read and seen some absolutist accusations against Republicans on a very biased perspective and not on verifiable facts and this since 2003. Yet, when one or many people dare to criticize Clinton or Daddy O, some can't accept the fact to be criticized. It goes both ways. Yes, some people dislike Clinton as well as Daddy O and his rotten administration, it is up to their rights to think like that or do so.
People vouched for that so called change and what so positive that so called change gave as result or gives as result ???? I would like to know that with verifiable facts not liberal biased media links or biased polls. Polls are not reflecting the reality.
Fox was fox and I absolutely don't want to emulate him and that is definitely not my goal. Fox was an absolutely hippie and an embarassement for the USA, he was a filthy communist pig.
I think everyone has their own opinion and I am not going to change anyone's point of view because everyone has their own view of undertsanding things. To be realistic is what I value . I base myself on the reality not on hope.

 

[titsrock]

I just watched water boarding being portrayed on the movie "GI Jane"...Viggo Mortenson, that would be Aragon, plays the Seal Master Chief in the movie....defending the technique. Interesting.

 

[Facial_King]

I just watched water boarding being portrayed on the movie "GI Jane"...Viggo Mortenson, that would be Aragon, plays the Seal Master Chief in the movie....defending the technique. Interesting.

Wow, I would guess that Viggo (not just your typical Hollywood liberal - he's further to the left, I think) himself wouldn't actually approve. Not that it matters, either way.

Is "GI Jane" worth watching overall? (Never would've guessed it was)

:dunno:

 

[Friday on my mind]

While watching C-SPAN this morning they rebroadcast a hearing on the torture used.One of the testifying lawyers mentioned a case that happened in the 1980s.Here are the details on the case.

http://gampac.wordpress.com/2009/05...vey-majority-of-evangelicals-support-torture/

"More recently, Texas Sheriff Convicted of Torture (1983):
In 1983, James Parker (Texas Sheriff for San Jacinto County) and three of his deputies were charged by the Department of Justice with committing torture because of their use of water torture on prisoners. The four were convicted of “water torture,” which was upheld on appeal. They were sentenced to 10 years each. The case name was United States v. Parker et al.

Sheriff Parker & three deputies were convicted of “water torture.” The conviction was upheld on appeal (United States of America, Plaintiff-Appellee, v. Carl Lee, Defendant-Appellant).

In the indictment the officers were charged with subjecting prisoners to “a suffocating ‘water torture’ ordeal in order to coerce confessions. This generally included placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning.”



So obviously this case upheld that water torture/boarding is illegal.10 years sounds like a fair sentence for those that authorized and performed such abuse.

 

[Facial_King]

Here's a great, and pretty thorough, review of why waterboarding is illegal:

http://lawreview.wustl.edu/slip-opinions/waterboarding-is-illegal/

And here's a great article from a front-line interrogator who makes it clear why and how waterboarding is immoral, generally ineffectual, and certainly counterproductive:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242.html

Excerpt:

"We turned several hard cases, including some foreign fighters, by using our new techniques. A few of them never abandoned the jihadist cause but still gave up critical information. One actually told me, "I thought you would torture me, and when you didn't, I decided that everything I was told about Americans was wrong. That's why I decided to cooperate."

Torture and abuse are against my moral fabric. The cliche still bears repeating: Such outrages are inconsistent with American principles. And then there's the pragmatic side: Torture and abuse cost American lives.

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans."

 

[BlueBalls]

I dont really have much to contribute to this thread, for the most part I can not be bothered to use my brain today But a question was asked that needs an answer...

Is "GI Jane" worth watching overall? (Never would've guessed it was)

:dunno:

No, it's not.














Good night everybody :wave:

 

[Boothbabe]

@ Facial_King:

It doesn't matter how many convincing arguments and facts against torture you show the pro-torture folks because nothing will ever change their mind even when proven wrong. They just lack the brain capacity and morals to understand why torture is wrong and doesn't work.

 

[Facetious]

After all of these posts we just might have a waterboardgate on our hands and wouldn't that be a riot !

Leon Panetta is even rollin his eyes when asked about Pelosi.

:1orglaugh:tongue:

@ Facial_King:

It doesn't matter how many convincing arguments and facts against torture you show the pro-torture folks because nothing will ever change their mind even when proven wrong. They just lack the brain capacity and morals to understand why torture is wrong and doesn't work.

"Pro torture folks" ?

Does that make pro choice folks "pro infanticide folks"

Seriously, those two waterboard recips must have been laughing their asses off, given the amount of sessions they recieved. Ya think ?

 

[Friday on my mind]

After all of these posts we just might have a waterboardgate on our hands and wouldn't that be a riot !

Leon Panetta is even rollin his eyes when asked about Pelosi.

:1orglaugh:tongue:

Let me start with I am more than happy to denounce all the dems in the congress post 9/11 who went along with the fear mongering hysteria and looked the other way or were even willing participants in some way in all sorts of things like the patriot act,inhanced interrogations etc.
Some objected privatedly which was all they were allowed to do by law as the information was classified.
But those ommisions in no way compare to what was done by the people orchestrating the crimes and torture who to this day have not come clean in any way about their involvement or even conceded it was torture and illegal.
That would be Bush,Cheney,Rumsfeld,Gonzalez and lots of others in the administration like the ones mentioned in this petition to have a full investigation into the matter.


https://secure.pfaw.org/site/SPageS...in=true&JServSessionIdr010=a70u2mefu1.app303a

"Tell Attorney General Eric Holder to appoint a special prosecutor to conduct a criminal investigation of Jay Bybee, John Yoo and Steven Bradbury, the legal architects of the Bush administration's torture policies"




Let the investigation start and let the chips fall where they may.
Again while Pelosi and some other dems may have been disappointing at times in their standing up against these crimes that is going to be seen as inconsequential compared to the republicans and their cohorts in the big picture.

Waterboardgate is a republican scandle just like watergate was.

 

[skechers]

Let the investigation start and let the chips fall where they may.
Again while Pelosi and some other dems may have been disappointing at times in their standing up against these crimes that is going to be seen as inconsequential compared to the republicans and their cohorts in the big picture.

:hatsoff: :hatsoff: :hatsoff: