BP's top kill effort fails to plug Gulf oil leak

[Member2019]

Turn off the TV ...

Nope. Bullshit.

Denial.

Turn off the TV. Look up a history of oil spills. Then come back and say bullshit again. Truth is not about popular assumption.

Understand I want BP to pay 100% for this. But the same bitch'n and moaning and call for nationalization isn't going to solve the problem any faster.

I listen to those who matter. Politicians are full of bullshit, not the people I'm listening to, that real, concerned citizens actually know.

 

[Facial_King]

There is this assumption that the government always serves the people and corporations only serve shareholders. This is at the heart of not just the socialist movements, but has been a stable falicy of socialism-based governments, like communism. The government is not better. And the government will run corporations into the ground out of their utter ignorance of fiscal responsibility.

That's not an assumption that I - nor most of my fellow lefties - hold. We're "real, concerned citizens."

Actually, as we can see right now in the US, the government serves, and is subservient and deferential to, the corporations (yes, there's some tough TALK, but it's mostly laughable). For decades now many of America's largest industries have basically set their own rules, captured their respective regulatory agencies, and "self-policed." Voila, look at what it's given us. Further, what is done is that all of the various risks (disasters, economic crash, environmental fuck-up) get socialized but the benefits and profits flow only one way - upward.

And the corporations do primarily serve shareholders. They don't exist as a public service, with no profit in mind. Profit is their raison d'etre. (Duh?)

The government can (and/or will) do as good of a job as the public demands.

Also, I think corporations have been demonstrating quite adequately their own brilliance in matters of "fiscal responsibility" over the last decade or so... (Ever been to a Fortune 500 company shindig?? It looks a lot less fiscally responsible than that at say, the Census Bureau or the nearest IRS office) And as the companies tank, the executives bail out with golden parachutes, essentially rewarded for helming the corporation's self-destruction.

Also, what's a "falicy"???

 

[Member2019]

For decades now many of America's largest industries have basically set their own rules, captured their respective regulatory agencies, and "self-policed."

So it's not even about regulation any more, it's just the hen and the hen house and no one else, right?

So, explain this to me like a two year-old ... how does that allegedly change at all when the government is the hen and the hen house?!

Voila, look at what it's given us.

The exact same issues as other nations, very socialist ones I might add!

People have this falicy that government will fix things. Sorry.

 

[Facial_King]

So it's not even about regulation any more, it's just the hen and the hen house and no one else, right?

So, explain this to me like a two year-old ... how does that allegedly change at all when the government is the hen and the hen house?!

The exact same issues as other nations, very socialist ones I might add!

People have this falicy that government will fix things. Sorry.

Don't you mean.... the fox and the hens (IN the hen house)????

:dunno:

BP (and the other corps) had plenty of incentives to cut corners and fuck things around in order to increase profits. If the government runs the wells they can (if we make them) stop cutting corners and do the job right.

Your government ownership=Stalinism thing (via Rush, Beck, etc.) is just bogus, and leaving things for the companies to sort out is the reason we're SO VERY FUCKED right NOW.

You seem to be suggesting a political philosophy of:

- No hope
- No change
- There never can be or will be positive change
- Don't bother trying
- Capitalism and unregulated free markets at any/all cost (= liberty/freedom)
- Nothing can be fixed
- Give up, and give up hope.

And haven't you seen the word "fallacy" in print before??? (I tried to be subtle in my last post, but you missed it I guess)

 

[titsrock]

It's one thing to do it with GM and others that have failed fiscally. It's another to argue arbitrary reasons for take overs, such as "truth" and "liability." It's why every nation that has moved to such a model has produced a nation of less wealth and prosperity, without improving the environment at all.

GM was "saved" because it took the fist of Government to knockout Douchebag, incompetent CEO Waggoner in order to put in place a CEO who actually had a clue about running a company. It seems that worked, right?

I assume BP has created an entity called "North American Operations" which can be taken over. The British HQ of BP may be nothing more than a holding company :dunno:

The point here is doesn't Gov't have the obligation to step in and "fix" a big company when that big company can't fix itself? Remember, this is Big Oil, there is no "free market" with Big Oil. It is oligopoly working under the OPEC Cartel. My guess is what we are seeing is a big company having senior management that have no clue what to do in a real crisis because they never thought a big crisis was possible. They truly are caught off guard and we're suffering by their incompetence.

How much permanent damage are we willing to suffer before we decide DRASTIC ACTION is needed! This is ridiculous!

It only takes one catastrophic incident like this before the American people will wake up and get along the Sustainable Fuel Bandwagon.

We need to start making calls to Brazil....:wave2:

 

[shaggydude]

Just spent alot of time reading the reports on this.........the magnitude of this disaster is fucking horrific!!

 

[lurkingdirk]

Just spent alot of time reading the reports on this.........the magnitude of this disaster is fucking horrific!!

:yesyes:
And alarmingly long lasting.

 

[GibbsGrad2002]

It is a very scary situation but BP is in major trouble

 

[Member2019]

God help us ...

I realized I don't even need to say anything else after these two statements ...

The point here is doesn't Gov't have the obligation to step in and "fix" a big company when that big company can't fix itself?

Remember, this is Big Oil, there is no "free market" with Big Oil. It is oligopoly working under the OPEC Cartel.

God help us, we are so fucked with these attitudes.

BTW ...

It only takes one catastrophic incident like this before the American people will wake up and get along the Sustainable Fuel Bandwagon.
We need to start making calls to Brazil....:wave2:

The Brazilian climate allows mass sugar cane production. The US climate does not.

Furthermore, weren't hippies and tree huggers like yourself complaining about Brazil cutting down all the rainforest to make way for their sugar-based fuel economy? There's no such thing as a free lunch.

 

[Facial_King]

"Hippies and tree huggers"???

Please, Prof, give that shit a rest...

 

[Member2019]

"Hippies and tree huggers"???
Please, Prof, give that shit a rest...

It was a figure of speech. But it still doesn't remove the fact that Brazil has wiped out major portions of the Rain Forest to make way for their sugar-based fuel economy. Consumers act like there's a "safe" and "natural" way to gain energy. Engineers know that's not the reality. I merely pointed out the realities of Brazil's fuel economy, as well as the fact that the US doesn't have the climate to match.

There's always a cost-benefit, and it's not just in dollars, but actual, environmental damage -- or at least the real threat of one.

Which comes back to the "hippies and tree huggers." Those who recognize this, and don't spout off not realizing what they may say might be a perfect example of their own ignorance, are such. Those who carefully understand the cost-benefits are actually "real, aware" people. That's the problem. A supermajority are not in that category.

 

[titsrock]

Re: God help us ...

I realized I don't even need to say anything else after these two statements ...

God help us, we are so fucked with these attitudes.

BTW ... The Brazilian climate allows mass sugar cane production. The US climate does not.

Furthermore, weren't hippies and tree huggers like yourself complaining about Brazil cutting down all the rainforest to make way for their sugar-based fuel economy? There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Hmm, I seem to remember people thought tobacco wouldn't grow in "America" either :dunno: Where there's a will, there's a way :thumbsup:

Have you ever heard of this company before? :wave2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil

I'm still waiting for the Free Market to arrive?:wave2: We didn't have a Free Market for Oil before gov't intervention and we don't seem to have one now. :dunno:

"Big Oil's" response to the growing discontent over BP and the economic destruction we're seeing is...

to Lower gas prices! :rofl:
(check Gas Buddy if you don't take my word for it)

Gee, I thought they didn't have control of the price like that Prof? :crying:

 

[titsrock]

Prof, is it really convenient to trot out the "smarts" of Engineers at this moment? I dunno, there seems to be this situation in the Gulf which "Real" Engineers don't seem to have a clue about how to solve... Just sayin' :dunno:

 

[Member2019]

Re: God help us ...

Hmm, I seem to remember people thought tobacco wouldn't grow in "America" either :dunno: Where there's a will, there's a way :thumbsup:

OMG! I give up there. Dude ... man ... wow! You are so full of popular assumptions!

Have you ever heard of this company before? :wave2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil

Forget it. Context is something you obviously can't master, let alone 1+1.

Prof, is it really convenient to trot out the "smarts" of Engineers at this moment? I dunno, there seems to be this situation in the Gulf which "Real" Engineers don't seem to have a clue about how to solve... Just sayin' :dunno:

Just like when the doctor doesn't know how to save a life, doesn't mean they aren't experts in their field.

But go ahead, there are 100x as many people who think the moon landings were faked and the twin towers fell due to explosives than there are engineers in this country that shake their heads at the physics of the situation. It used to be that people deferred to experts. But today, everyone thinks they are an expert because they can search on the Internet.

 

[titsrock]

Re: God help us ...

Forget it. Context is something you obviously can't master, let alone 1+1.

Just like when the doctor doesn't know how to save a life, doesn't mean they aren't experts in their field.

Prof, there is no "free market" for Oil. That is the point. There never has been --STANDARD OIL 1870s--and then OPEC -- and now today's Big Multinationals.

When will you realize this? We don't even have functioning Gov't oversight because of the years and years of Nepotism between Big Oil and the Gov't. :dunno:

What did people use Oil for before 1870? Power the clipper ships of the Empire?:rofl:


You apparently live in a corruption-free-naive-keep-my-head-in-the-sand ~bubble~ Prof?

Others of us, who actually pay attention to stuff, have a world to save. Maybe the solutions to our problems will be revealed through the T Square and Graph Paper :dunno:

 

[Member2019]

Re: God help us ...

because of the years and years of Nepotism between Big Oil and the Gov't. :dunno:

And you still don't get my point ... What will putting government in charge do to change this?

You apparently live in a corruption-free-naive-keep-my-head-in-the-sand ~bubble~ Prof?

And you apparently live in another, similar bubble when it comes to nationalization.

But I think you sum up your attitude even further here ...

Others of us, who actually pay attention to stuff, have a world to save.

Yes, we engineers don't save, we only destroy. Sigh. We provide solutions, versus ... what do you offer?

Maybe the solutions to our problems will be revealed through the T Square and Graph Paper :dunno:

Yes, we engineers only use such, memorize formulas and other, stupid things that are simple and useless for the world. What is it that you drive again, and how can you replace it with some ... "widget" .. that from, and I'll quote you ...

"others of us ... have a world to save"

Consumers need solutions, not bullshit that does nothing. When you have a solution that solves the need of consumers, contact me. Until then, you're off in your own little world.

Solving absolutely nothing!

 

[smoknn]

i cant believe all these suit wearing SOBs on cnn running they pussy and pointing fingers...when thousands of gallons of oil continue to gush into our ocean..looks like they could if and and but..after they stop this shit..they act like a conversation is going to make this all better...can they not wait till the hole is plugged...WTF???????:dunno::wave2:

 

[ICanHasLogin]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/17/world/africa/17nigeria.html

 

[titsrock]

This headline and excerpt pretty much sum up things at the moment...

Gulf Oil Spill: Rig Owner's Avoidance Of U.S. Jurisdiction Angers House Panel

The Deepwater Horizon oil-drilling rig was registered in the Marshall Islands and its owners paid taxes in Switzerland -- but when the rig blew up and sank to the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico, who came to the rescue? And who is suffering the economic and environmental damages caused by the ongoing spill?

Those were among the combative question raised by members of a House committee on Thursday at a hearing about foreign-flagged vessels operating in the Gulf.

Mississippi Democratic Rep. Gene Taylor was particularly irritated. "I'm just curious, how long did it take the Marshall Islands Coast Guard to show up when that rig caught on fire?" he asked rhetorically.

Pointing out that the rig was built in Korea, he asked: "And how long did it take the Korean Coast Guard to show up?"

Transocean, the company that owned the rig, was officially headquartered in Switzerland in order to avoid U.S. taxes. "I guess the Swiss Coast Guard showed up when this vessel exploded?" Taylor asked.

The burden, Taylor said, of course fell to the United States, "the country that didn't get to build the rig, that did not inspect the rig, that did not get the taxes for the rig."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/17/gulf-oil-spill-rig-owners_n_616390.html

 

[saschaxx]

Yup, especially the Swiss coast-guard, the have such a nice coast and fiiinee sand-beaches ....:angels: