The Assault weapon's ban may just die anyway if Parker v. District of Columbia is upheld. [link - PDF]
assault weapons ban!!
- Thread starter glk35
- Start date
The gun is not the cause of that. It's a tool used because of the violence already present. Plus I don't see the right to bear WMD in the constitution or the contemporaries of that time. You would have been better off using flamethrowers and grenades, which are used by the common infantry soldier. Then again my philosophy is if you don't like the constitution then amend it, don't twist it to what you want. I brought up mind control to point out just because something might make people safer doesn't mean it's right to do it even if it's possible. Then again you still haven't proven your case to how their unnecessary other than hope that the future will always be good and people will always play nice which seems silly. You really haven't proven how this makes us safer.
So how many states voted to eliminate any chance that gay marriage might pop up in their state? Not only that most of them were landslides against it. Even that surprised me. That doesn't seem very pro-homosexual to me. Plus is there any reason you think that way other than the UN says so. Is that your justification for everything? Suppose, hypothetically, tomorrow the world gets together and the UN changes and they decide to throw out all the human rights they recognize and no longer care about them. Are you saying those human rights don't exist anymore? Is the UN what gives people those rights? Or is it a higher truth whether people believe its God or some other reason that gives people human rights? I think self-defense of yourself, others, and your liberties are one of those higher truths. Is that hard to believe?
I consider everything in a well thought out and rational matter. You on the other hand think with your emotions and not your head, which is why I said that. I don't doubt your intentions, but the saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" describes you perfectly. You don't use critical thinking. You don't use forethought. You don't use common sense. You can be hypocritical and you refuse to accept it. You have a tendency to not use logic. You have a problem seeing the bigger picture. You don't weight risk to reward very well. You don't learn from past history. You ignore and cherry pick evidence, and you have problems seeing the obvious even if it comes up and slaps you on the face. You think in flowery terms and happy thoughts and expect that the world is just going to fall in line without a realistic approach to how that is going to happen or even if it can happen. You don't, won't, or can't see the danger your actions will do in the pursuit of those happy feeling you have for the world. There I think that about covers it. That is what's wrong with you, not the fact you disagree with me.
Aegis said:
I have seen nothing in my entire life that indicates humanity has learned, ever. I have the near totality of human history, thousands upon thousands of years, backing up my arguments, and yet were the paranoid ones. What do you have? A couple of decades that were more tumultuous than people think and where keep in check by us over here ironically. Friends and allies among countries come and go. They always have and always will. People in those countries change. They always have and always will also. Even now you can start to see it. The only thing that has remained the same is at it's heart humanity is greedy selfish creature. It's taken extraordinary effort by relatively few people to even change some of that for a short time. Then again even now you if people pay attention they can see that starting so slip away like sand through a crack. All it takes is one little thing to set it off; one small time where things get bad and people start getting desperate. Getting scared and desperate does things to almost everybody with only the absolutely strongest among us able to resist it. Then the people you thought were one way will be another. It will be like somebody flipping a switch with the relative time it will take. It's happened countless times before. It's going to happen again. This isn't just to you but to everybody, mark my words.
I believe that for the most part people are stupid. You can't give them a gun and belive that they will make a good decision especially when they don't know all the facts and might be subject to hearsay and mis-understanding. Just leave justice to the police. The ban on assault weapons is a good thing. If you need a fucking M-16 to protect yourself, then your fucked anyway. As for the NRA's "strong" argument about the whole california thing, well, that just doesn't make sense. No coutry is going to invade the USA. If someone wants to do harm to the US there are better technologies out there i.e. missiles and bombs etc. If you want to really protect yourself, get your own personal missile defense system for cryin out loud. Who the fuck do people think they are that they can decide whether they have the right to shoot someone else and possibly kill them??? NO single person or a group of unofficial people, should have a right to do that. Thats why you have a constitution. People need to calm down.
Are you still referring to the belief that governments will turn against their own people, in such a way that citizens need to be armed? Because it's that belief that I find so paranoid. I just don't believe that such things will happen in most western countries today. I don't expect my country to turn into a tyranny or that a civil war will break out.
Is that something you expect will happen in the near future, either where you live or elsewhere?
You cant even own an m-16 right now, and an m-4 ar-15 makes a great defense weapon with the right rounds in it. and yes I do have the right to shoot somone and kill them because I wouldn't try and wound "you shoot until the threat is eliminated" I you shoot at somone you better intend on killing them. you cant count on the police being there when you need them all the time, I know a shit load of cops and they are all against the ban and very much for ccw. people that think that the police are cure all's are very nieve.
"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest." -- From the Declaration of the Continental Congress, July 1775
"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." -- James Madison, The Federalist Papers
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."-- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers
"Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defence? Where is the difference between having our arms in our own possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defence be the *real* object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" -- Patrick Henry
"Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." -- Mohandas Gandhi, An Autobiography (Yes, it's there. Look it up)
... yeah, I suppose they were all "paranoid" too.
I think it boils down to this:
Y'all trust government.
I don't.
Y'all think tyranny is a thing of the past. That governments shall never again turn against their peoples.
Well, y'all are welcome to your opinions - s'long as you leave me and mine alone.
If y'all are right, it's a good thing. Government don't turn on the governed.
But if y'all are wrong, then what?
cheers,
PS: I love how people keep saying 'gun control is proven statistically' - yet never bother refuting the statistics I posted pages earlier.
"Taking my gun away because I might shoot someone is like cutting my tongue out because I might yell `Fire!' in a crowded theater."
When only cops have guns, it's called a "police state".
PS: "Justice" ? Justice isn't the job of the cops. It's the job of the judges, jury and the entire judiciary. If you're gonna make comparisons, at least make appropriate ones. Last I checked, this land was still under "innocent until proven guilty".
Can you point out where exactly in the Constitution does it say what you just said? Specifically "NO single person or a group of unofficial people, should have a right to do that (shoot people)." ??
I'm eagerly waiting your response.
cheers,
Hi Fox
It is more a matter of time than anything else. Do you think that there isn't violent crime in european countries. Do you think people in France are satisfied to be only victims when they are robbed or when some scumbags vandalize their cars or homes? The safety of my town which was excellent decreased through years. You can't go walk alone as you could before. Even in my street, car traffic was forbidden but a mayor (who was stupid) and authorized it. There were even car radio players stolen. One guy of the neighbour street blocked some individuals who tried to steal an expensive bike. The individuals were arrested and questionned by police. It was revealed that they came from the shittiest suburbs.
I am not talking about a case that happened 5 years ago when an old man and his wife were shoot to death and robbed in their house. One friend of mine was agressed by some ghetto trash fuckers who wanted his shoes, after this do you honestly think people see things in pink or are optimistic?????? Not really.
I think and that engages only me (sorry for if I am too straightforward) that you can't mix ghetto trash and educated people. Not all non americans share your views, tough some of them do.
I think there are rules and if people are law breakers, scum trash or whatever type of scum they deserve sever punishment. We don't live in a peaceful climate anymore. But fact is that police can't be everywhere and if honest citizens can't defend themselves, then there is a problem.
just my :2 cents:
regards
georges
It is more a matter of time than anything else. Do you think that there isn't violent crime in european countries. Do you think people in France are satisfied to be only victims when they are robbed or when some scumbags vandalize their cars or homes? The safety of my town which was excellent decreased through years. You can't go walk alone as you could before. Even in my street, car traffic was forbidden but a mayor (who was stupid) and authorized it. There were even car radio players stolen. One guy of the neighbour street blocked some individuals who tried to steal an expensive bike. The individuals were arrested and questionned by police. It was revealed that they came from the shittiest suburbs.
I am not talking about a case that happened 5 years ago when an old man and his wife were shoot to death and robbed in their house. One friend of mine was agressed by some ghetto trash fuckers who wanted his shoes, after this do you honestly think people see things in pink or are optimistic?????? Not really.
I think and that engages only me (sorry for if I am too straightforward) that you can't mix ghetto trash and educated people. Not all non americans share your views, tough some of them do.
I think there are rules and if people are law breakers, scum trash or whatever type of scum they deserve sever punishment. We don't live in a peaceful climate anymore. But fact is that police can't be everywhere and if honest citizens can't defend themselves, then there is a problem.
just my :2 cents:
regards
georges
I think that to many people living in free countries without guns, then yes, they will appear paranoid. I just can't imagine it happening here.
Then we're screwed. But so are we if a superpower decides to invade or nuke us. It's just one of those things that I don't consider likely at all in the near future, so it's not something I'd use when thinking about allowing guns here, which would affect my society in so many ways.
I can understand the argument of being able to defend yourself against criminals, but not that you should be able to defend yourself against your own armed forces.
But I can easily imagine there being other countries where I would think differently if I lived there. Just not really that many western countries.
I agree with Fox (Surprise Surprise
): Your Government has already turned against you by cutting your civil rights...
And even if everyone owned a weapon in the U.S. : If there was to be Tyranny it would probably not come overnight, but build up slowly. A lot of people wouldn't even notice. Some in Europe think it's already on it's way...
And what then? Would you go out to fight the Military? Would you stand up for the rights of your neighbours if they were black, gay or different in any other way?
And an Assault Rifle for Self-Defence is a bit too much anyway isn't it?
): Your Government has already turned against you by cutting your civil rights...And even if everyone owned a weapon in the U.S. : If there was to be Tyranny it would probably not come overnight, but build up slowly. A lot of people wouldn't even notice. Some in Europe think it's already on it's way...
And what then? Would you go out to fight the Military? Would you stand up for the rights of your neighbours if they were black, gay or different in any other way?
And an Assault Rifle for Self-Defence is a bit too much anyway isn't it?
Kingfisher
Here Zombie, Zombie, Zombie...
Good quotes, Roughneck.
I read something the other day that Belgium just basically outlawed guns, sporting and the such, because of one person who bought a rifle then killed three people in a incident. While tragic, the ocerreaction level is huge. They're dictating all sorts of rules and stipulations.
If that happened here, there would be a large amount of incidents that looked like Ruby Ridge or Waco, if the government rolled down the street to take everyone's guns. Sometimes those Reps and "Senators", (some I'm amazed they're still alive and in office) get one thought in their head, that they'll do something to benefit a group (take a bride) and that there will not be any reprecussions or backlash.
Idiots.
Here's the the people I did not vote in. :thefinger
I read something the other day that Belgium just basically outlawed guns, sporting and the such, because of one person who bought a rifle then killed three people in a incident. While tragic, the ocerreaction level is huge. They're dictating all sorts of rules and stipulations.
If that happened here, there would be a large amount of incidents that looked like Ruby Ridge or Waco, if the government rolled down the street to take everyone's guns. Sometimes those Reps and "Senators", (some I'm amazed they're still alive and in office) get one thought in their head, that they'll do something to benefit a group (take a bride) and that there will not be any reprecussions or backlash.
Idiots.
Here's the the people I did not vote in. :thefinger
Philbert
Banned
A general response to post #316:
Sometimes I think a lot of posts are for the poster...seeing their words in print.
This wasn't a serious, thought out statement, was it?
How many times in this thread, or on the site, have people discussed the changes in Government respecting civil and natural rights, and yet you think Tyranny is just gonna creep up unnoticed on us? Surprise...here in the USA, we talk and react to what we see and care about daily, where is the secret Government agenda gonna hide from all the right, left, independent, and just plain curious people looking and argueing over every little thing?
Who is the soldier? He's your cousin, a brother, someone you grew up with...they are gonna just start helping round up people if Congress passes laws that require that? In China, Generals (warlords) keep their own troops, recruit them from their specific areas of influence, and can sic them on other Chinese (Tiannamon Square) without upsetting the troops.
We don't do things quite the same. Our military would grind to a halt if the government at any level tried to control the population with troops.
We need the consent of the governed here to function, unlike other systems, and I think you could see that if you actually looked around; WE are America, not faceless Government Troops like in Sci Fi.
And what does that mean: "isn't an Assault Rifle a bit much"? Even forgetting the fact several people who know have pointed out an Assault weapon isn't what most people are being denied...I don't want a full auto weapon, but why does any controlling group want the firepower of it's citizens restricted?
Safety has other areas of concern; maybe better if the state and Federal levels of control get lawlessness in hand, and let the people in the frontlines deal with their immediate safety; I don't wanna see dead people waiting patiently for police to respond to a home invasion or a carjacking. Better we should deal with the quick threat ourselves instead of waiting for law enforcement to find time to come to our rescue.
Most people have worked, lived, and done military service with Blacks, Gays, fat people, and various other "types"; even if I don't like the particular lifestyle, I won't stand by and let my rights (which are everyone's or no ones) be removed for any excuse. I am not alone in this, most people get what to do when the shit hits the fan.
Hard to believe you actually own a firearm.
As for Europe...some there think anarchy is a viable social structure, so what?
Many European countries have allowed the immigrant problem to get away from them, now there are governments who are afraid of losing control to the radical elements and are walking on eggshells. How many riots will it take 'til Europe has to deal with the growing problem of extremists demanding multiculturalist autonomy, seperate laws for different interest groups?
We here have seen violence run wild in seperate areas of our country; L.A. was a good example...who were the largest number of arrests made for looting and theft? Illegal immigrants, more than white or black by far.
Where I live, every night 2 or 4 people are shot, stabbed, and beaten to death, weekends are even busier.
Mostly Latino clubs are involved, mostly Latino victims, mostly people who live secretly and seperately from the main population. I don't think gun laws have much effect on the population of illegals who have set up shop here in the US, and there are more and more groups trying to grab a section of the American dream and make it their own dream; not American, just in America.
Damn right I want to be able to own an effective firearm.
Maybe in a future where populations have let go of 15th century ideals, and religious/tribal affiliations aren't neccessary to die for, firearms will be redundant; not yet.
Anyone who has ever had more prosperity than most, has had to deal with the attitude that since "I don't have what I want, but you do; I want your money/car/wife/lifestyle and I want it now. I don't wanna wait, or get it for myself, I want some of yours."
A lot of the danger we face is rooted in that attitude, and I don't buy it.
:2 cents:
Sometimes I think a lot of posts are for the poster...seeing their words in print.
This wasn't a serious, thought out statement, was it?
How many times in this thread, or on the site, have people discussed the changes in Government respecting civil and natural rights, and yet you think Tyranny is just gonna creep up unnoticed on us? Surprise...here in the USA, we talk and react to what we see and care about daily, where is the secret Government agenda gonna hide from all the right, left, independent, and just plain curious people looking and argueing over every little thing?
Who is the soldier? He's your cousin, a brother, someone you grew up with...they are gonna just start helping round up people if Congress passes laws that require that? In China, Generals (warlords) keep their own troops, recruit them from their specific areas of influence, and can sic them on other Chinese (Tiannamon Square) without upsetting the troops.
We don't do things quite the same. Our military would grind to a halt if the government at any level tried to control the population with troops.
We need the consent of the governed here to function, unlike other systems, and I think you could see that if you actually looked around; WE are America, not faceless Government Troops like in Sci Fi.
And what does that mean: "isn't an Assault Rifle a bit much"? Even forgetting the fact several people who know have pointed out an Assault weapon isn't what most people are being denied...I don't want a full auto weapon, but why does any controlling group want the firepower of it's citizens restricted?
Safety has other areas of concern; maybe better if the state and Federal levels of control get lawlessness in hand, and let the people in the frontlines deal with their immediate safety; I don't wanna see dead people waiting patiently for police to respond to a home invasion or a carjacking. Better we should deal with the quick threat ourselves instead of waiting for law enforcement to find time to come to our rescue.
Most people have worked, lived, and done military service with Blacks, Gays, fat people, and various other "types"; even if I don't like the particular lifestyle, I won't stand by and let my rights (which are everyone's or no ones) be removed for any excuse. I am not alone in this, most people get what to do when the shit hits the fan.
Hard to believe you actually own a firearm.
As for Europe...some there think anarchy is a viable social structure, so what?
Many European countries have allowed the immigrant problem to get away from them, now there are governments who are afraid of losing control to the radical elements and are walking on eggshells. How many riots will it take 'til Europe has to deal with the growing problem of extremists demanding multiculturalist autonomy, seperate laws for different interest groups?
We here have seen violence run wild in seperate areas of our country; L.A. was a good example...who were the largest number of arrests made for looting and theft? Illegal immigrants, more than white or black by far.
Where I live, every night 2 or 4 people are shot, stabbed, and beaten to death, weekends are even busier.
Mostly Latino clubs are involved, mostly Latino victims, mostly people who live secretly and seperately from the main population. I don't think gun laws have much effect on the population of illegals who have set up shop here in the US, and there are more and more groups trying to grab a section of the American dream and make it their own dream; not American, just in America.
Damn right I want to be able to own an effective firearm.
Maybe in a future where populations have let go of 15th century ideals, and religious/tribal affiliations aren't neccessary to die for, firearms will be redundant; not yet.
Anyone who has ever had more prosperity than most, has had to deal with the attitude that since "I don't have what I want, but you do; I want your money/car/wife/lifestyle and I want it now. I don't wanna wait, or get it for myself, I want some of yours."
A lot of the danger we face is rooted in that attitude, and I don't buy it.
:2 cents:
... then you shall never understand the sentiment.
What I posted in my earlier post were quotes and ideas bequeathed to us from the founding fathers to my nation. I didn't expect you to understand them - and you didn't.
Samuel Adams said:
According to you Aegis, "paranoid" men founded this nation. I'd rather have more of those "paranoid" folks than the ones who are complacent and trusting of their government.
So your suggestion is "When things go bad, bend over and kiss your ass good bye" .... ?????
In other words: "Don't bother resisting. Go quietly into the night."
"Trust your government" etc. and all that.
That you are willing to readily admit to "then we're screwed" is telling....
More so that you want to confuse the issue by talking about superpowers and nuclear weapons is even more revealing!
Yeah - we'd rather not follow the European example this time around....
cheers,
I understood them, I just don't agree with them.
There's no problem with that. People believe in different things. I haven't said that this is how people in the US should think. Our cultures are different, and I acknowledge that. As well as the fact that people don't like giving up their rights. Just as I don't like the idea of introducing more guns here.
Well, you left out the explanation I gave. I said that I won't use this as an argument for allowing guns here, because I don't consider it likely to happen here in the near future. Just as I don't consider it likely that we'll be invaded by a superpower, and as such it's not something I'm going to make some radical changes in my country for.
I don't believe that we will be oppressed by our goverment and military, and I don't believe that we'll be invaded. As such, I think that it's not the best of ideas to use those as arguments for why guns should be allowed here. Some say that people can use them to defend against their government or against an invading country. But if the odds of that happening are minimal, then those aren't reasons I'd like to use in favor of guns.
I think you would agree that yelling "fire" in a crowded theater is a little different from opening fire on a crowded theatre. I just meant to say that the lay man is not provided with all the information he needs to know to make an informed decision, and so cannot be judge jury and executioner.
You are entirely right that justice isn't the job of the police. I just meant my comment in the sense that they (police) are the arms of the law and so carry out whatever has been decided by courts, i.e. arresting someone etc, and are authorized to incapacitate someone if they deem that person to be harmful to others etc.
As for your last argument, I never actually said that it says so in the constitution. Look at my post. You assume that. I said, "NO single person or a group of unofficial people, should have a right to do that. Thats why you have a constitution." I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I just meant again that no unauthorized people, who aren't acting under the laws created by a majority government, should have the right to carry guns and be judge jury and executioner. Because otherwise there would be chaos. Thats why you have a constitution. To prevent it.
If you lock your gun safely, so your kids can't get to it, You Might not be quick enough to get it if you need it... So what will you do?
Anyway, it's hopeless - I won't change your mind and you won't change mine...
I really hope that if a school shooting (of kids who use their parents weapons) ever happens again, it will not be blamed on other religions or Rock Music or whatever but on those parents who teach their children to fire a gun before they even go to school...
I still hope for an overall weapons ban everywhere, but maybe I'm just a Dreamer...
Anyway, it's hopeless - I won't change your mind and you won't change mine...
I really hope that if a school shooting (of kids who use their parents weapons) ever happens again, it will not be blamed on other religions or Rock Music or whatever but on those parents who teach their children to fire a gun before they even go to school...
I still hope for an overall weapons ban everywhere, but maybe I'm just a Dreamer...
I think you meant "protection" ...
I think you mean "protection," not "justice." Not trying to nitpick, and let me know if I was wrong.
I am too well read to respond further ...
I'm too American Libertarian and a classic study of American Republicanism to even respond to this thread further, and I know several other fall into this category as well, so why bother? Especially since many people are free to bash, disregard and otherwise continually prod, pick and poke at various things -- across multiple threads -- and someone like me cannot respond without being banned.
I'm tired of the double-standards here, especially given how much select, other people post than just myself -- let alone they post without bothering to read up on all the views, commentary and literature of those who came before them. Talk about disrespecting people -- those who built this nation, nurtured this nation and otherwise debated for 200+ years are being fed to people who just don't even bother to stop and respect at least their viewpoints -- even if they end up disagreeing in the end, at least they read their viewpoints (especially things that have already been done, and failed).
I am just too damn well read and well aware of the viewpoints of others, especially those who made this nation what it is. And all while they are free to post and just show off their great ignorance and lack of consideration for those that built this nation (and it's not just about opinion), then there's no reason for me to stop and bother and try to point them to some necessary and quite required reading before they will ever understand what anyone else is saying.
I'm too American Libertarian and a classic study of American Republicanism to even respond to this thread further, and I know several other fall into this category as well, so why bother? Especially since many people are free to bash, disregard and otherwise continually prod, pick and poke at various things -- across multiple threads -- and someone like me cannot respond without being banned.
I'm tired of the double-standards here, especially given how much select, other people post than just myself -- let alone they post without bothering to read up on all the views, commentary and literature of those who came before them. Talk about disrespecting people -- those who built this nation, nurtured this nation and otherwise debated for 200+ years are being fed to people who just don't even bother to stop and respect at least their viewpoints -- even if they end up disagreeing in the end, at least they read their viewpoints (especially things that have already been done, and failed).
I am just too damn well read and well aware of the viewpoints of others, especially those who made this nation what it is. And all while they are free to post and just show off their great ignorance and lack of consideration for those that built this nation (and it's not just about opinion), then there's no reason for me to stop and bother and try to point them to some necessary and quite required reading before they will ever understand what anyone else is saying.
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