Any Vegetarians or almost Vegetarians Out there?

Well, I disagree with the idea that fructose isn't considered harmful, I could fill this thread with studies showing what it does to the liver, it's affect on metabolism, obesity, kidneys, bacterial growth, heart health, diabetes, brain function etc.

I've never seen any studies showing that ALL of those catastrophic effects can be canceled out by the other constituents of fruit, especially with high sugar fruits. I would be very interested to see that if you have links. I have seen a study where honey was trialed against purified fructose and it did show a difference, but I don't think it was enough to really call it harmless. Maybe just less harmful than it's concentrated counterpart.


p.s what do you mean by the meat to sat. fat & cholesterol relationship?

My basic point was that in moderation, fructose has been shown to be safe for consumption:

The 2008 Study


Which is why I drew the meat to saturated fat and cholesterol relationship: excess is harmful.

Actually, as much as I personally love fruit, I wish that were true. My best friend has skin allergies to fructose, and has to watch his intake very closely. He still eats very little fruit, but the benefits of his intake doesn't outweigh the harm one bit.

Now, I do know that some fruits and vegetable, consumed raw or lightly steamed do provide some of the best essentials you can have, but not having them has shown no documented ill effects. Is it recommended? Yes. Is it vital? Well, they haven't shown to be. In the end, those who do choose a high veggie diet will see some benefit from it, but those that don't won't miss much if any, as the body adjusts to what it's conditioned.

Well, sure, if someone is allergic to something, it's tough to make the case that said food's nutritional value mitigates its risks, but that's kind of the hallmark of being allergic to something. I'm referring to the perceived risk of ingesting fructose.

Now, I'm not making the case that fruits and vegetables are essential, rather that they are by nature healthful.
 
I only eat organic meat as it's important for me to know the animal had a good love. I eat meat 6 days a week and fish on Friday and sometimes have a vegetarian day.
With Lent coming up my meat intake will be reduced to 2 days a week.
More fish though.
But I try to eat a small quantity of meat each day, not a whole lot.
No 2 steaks a day for me.
 

emceeemcee

Banned
I'm always amazed at the large amount of catholics that are on freeones.....


No 2 steaks a day for me.

You're missing out. It was 2 t-bones for me today as well as pan friend chicken breast drowned in ghee. And some liver.
 
I was vegetarian for three years. I ended up at the hospital, having lost too much weight and being deficient in several nutrients. Now I'm not saying that vegetarians can't work around that, its just that I couldn't work around it. My body needed iron (women need a bit more because we menstruate) and I needed more protein, and vitamins. So I started eating meat again, but I did it differently this time. I felt horrible about eating animals because I HATE knowing how their raised and killed...legalized animal abuse sickens me. So I did my research and found some local farms that offer organic meat...not the fake "organic" label that you see on some supermarket meats, but actual organic farms. And today, its all I eat. I don't eat meat at restaurants unless I KNOW what farm the animal comes from and that its certified free range, and I buy all my meat straight from the farm. The farms that I go visit, investigate and verify with my own eyes that its legit and animal friendly. Its seriously beautiful to see HAPPY cows, chickens and pigs, getting out in the sunshine, getting fresh air, getting to graze in clean fields rather than be crammed into a huge building, collapsing in their own feces and being fed bullshit infested, hormone infused crap. And I get to support my local farmers doing it, the ones who work harder for less money, only because they believe in their product and the way its been raised. Happy cows make happy burgers. End of story.

You ended in hospital because you didn't know how to eat. I have 2 meters high and 115 kilos weight. I'm basketball player so I need a lot of energy and vitamins and I'm a vegetarian for 4 years. Beeing vegetarian is not a problem if you know how to balance your diet. If you don't know that is results - you end in hospital.
And about happy cows that ends like a happy burger. I have never heard a bigger bull**it. "Happy killing" - hypocrisy
 
I don't eat meat to often anymore. I was a Vegetarian when I was younger but when I got prego I put it back into my diet now we eat red meat once maybe twice a week.
 
I just read several MMA fighters don't eat meat and they are ripped and explosive. I myself eat meat or fish 1 time a week only....also I guy I used to date said being Veggie made his tool stonger and he could last longer! I think he was right. HAHA!

an MMA Fighter thats a veggie.....Impossible! they must be eating some meat or taking protein pills.

there's no muscle without meat.
 
You ended in hospital because you didn't know how to eat. I have 2 meters high and 115 kilos weight. I'm basketball player so I need a lot of energy and vitamins and I'm a vegetarian for 4 years. Beeing vegetarian is not a problem if you know how to balance your diet. If you don't know that is results - you end in hospital.
And about happy cows that ends like a happy burger. I have never heard a bigger bull**it. "Happy killing" - hypocrisy

How in the hell can you tell somebody how and why their body reacted to their diet change. The only person you can speak for is yourself when it comes to that. If being a vegetarian works for you, thumbs up for that, but who are you to diagnose someone you've never met? Are you the authority on vegetarian diets? If not...





...and by the way happy cows do make happier burgers. Google kobe beef. It's funny how when a human kills and eats an animal its a happy killing hypocrisy, but yet when that same animal is eaten by another predator or dies due to disease or evironmental dangers, human intervention is warranted. Consider the lives and deaths of these animals without human intervention... you'll find human caretaking and humane killing are much better than the alternative.
 
Oh, that was just another thing we were all brainwashed with. Don't hold back on that butter. I sure as hell don't.

Honestly, that first link should be trusted about as far as you can throw it. But let's take a look:

Per the first:

First thing is, this is a persons blog, with absolutely no credentials to speak of. He essentially references a "reader" but again, there's absolutely no credibility to the person who has "conducted this research". Hell, there's a guy hocking his diet book on the right, not exactly scholarly.

Per the second:

However, compared with those with the lowest intake of full-fat dairy, participants with the highest intake (median intake 339 g/day) had reduced death due to CVD.

Clearly the conclusion is that drinking whole milk produces some small benefits. Nothing I don't agree with already, especially when the average intake was 339g of milk or a tad more than 11 ounces. That's barely more than a cup of milk a day. Seems to me this is evidence of what I've been espousing the whole time: moderation in all things. Yeah, the saturated fat is a tad higher, but because this is in moderation, any potential harm is offset by Vitamins A, K2, E, and D, which all have, with moderate intake, been linked to lower levels of cardiovascular disease and stroke.

Per the third:

A remote tribe of less than 1,000 people, living on coconuts and fish, on a calorically restricted (by food availability) had lower cardiovascular disease rate. Sounds an awful lot like early Western settlers to me. Primary food was meat, but there wasn't a whole lot of food in general. Again seems to suggest moderation in all things. People that don't eat a Westerized diet tend to eat a fraction of what Westerners do.


Per the fourth:


Yeah, people lost more weight with a higher percentage of saturated fats making up for their diet, however, the guy performing the study even points out the flaw there:

It could be argued (and probably will be) that the effect of the saturated fat is confounded by the reduction in calories.

Again, reducing total intake points directly to an approach of moderation, which is a really popular reoccurring theme.

Also just because by chance he happened to come up:
It will also be argued, as Dean Ornish does, that the source of the saturated fat was not necessarily meat or bacon, but beans or other healthy sources.

The study didn't even control for the what the intake of saturated fats was, which even further clouds the picture, and tends to lend credence to the idea that foods that are rich in vitamins and minerals tend to mitigate the negative parts they may have.

All in all, there's really no compelling evidence to discredit that vegetables and fruits are healthful, my original point. Instead, the point that's repeatedly elucidated is the classic "moderation in all things".
 
I'd be interested to see what your health is like in the long term.


Plenty of vitamins and energy in fat and animal protein btw

Human body don't need animal fat. Everything what we need is in vegetables, fruist and milk products. There is no doubt about this.
My health now is even better than when I was eating meat.
 

emceeemcee

Banned
First thing is, this is a persons blog, with absolutely no credentials to speak of. He essentially references a "reader" but again, there's absolutely no credibility to the person who has "conducted this research". Hell, there's a guy hocking his diet book on the right, not exactly scholarly.

That graph is compiled from statistics from the British Heart Foundation's website.
Clearly the conclusion is that drinking whole milk produces some small benefits. Nothing I don't agree with already, especially when the average intake was 339g of milk or a tad more than 11 ounces. That's barely more than a cup of milk a day. Seems to me this is evidence of what I've been espousing the whole time: moderation in all things. Yeah, the saturated fat is a tad higher, but because this is in moderation, any potential harm is offset by Vitamins A, K2, E, and D, which all have, with moderate intake, been linked to lower levels of cardiovascular disease and stroke.

That is just speculation and you are ignoring the data where people do eat large amounts of saturated fat and have no heart disease.

A remote tribe of less than 1,000 people, living on coconuts and fish, on a calorically restricted (by food availability) had lower cardiovascular disease rate. Sounds an awful lot like early Western settlers to me. Primary food was meat, but there wasn't a whole lot of food in general. Again seems to suggest moderation in all things. People that don't eat a Westerized diet tend to eat a fraction of what Westerners do.

It seems to suggest that saturated fat has absolutely nothing to do with heart disease even when people get 50% of their daily calories from as with the Tokelaun.

Where did it say they were restricting calories?

They were not consuming saturated fat in moderation. It was making up half of their daily calories


Again, reducing total intake points directly to an approach of moderation, which is a really popular reoccurring theme.

You missed the most important part of the article:

So here’s the simple question and the point: how can saturated fat be bad for us if a high saturated fat diet lowers L.D.L. at least as well as a diet that has 20 to 25 percent less saturated fat?

It could be argued (and probably will be) that the effect of the saturated fat is confounded by the reduction in calories, but the A.H.A. diet also reduces calories and in fact specifies caloric reduction while the low-carb diet does not.


It only points to the suggestion of moderation being key if one chooses to ignore data showing saturated fat intake in the context of a diet which doesn't restrict calories which includes the examples using the BHF stats, the Masai, the Tokelau migrant study and the Stanford study I posted earlier.


The study didn't even control for the what the intake of saturated fats was, which even further clouds the picture, and tends to lend credence to the idea that foods that are rich in vitamins and minerals tend to mitigate the negative parts they may have.

Again, that is mere speculation unless you provide evidence for it.

First you say saturated fat is bad and should be moderated now you say it's the vitamins and minerals mitigating the supposedly bad effects. You're shifting your argument.

All in all, there's really no compelling evidence to discredit that vegetables and fruits are healthful, my original point.

There is no evidence showing that munching on plants is going to significantly boost your health (yet there is evidence against it) and there is also plenty of reason not to eat lots of fruit unless of course you are going to support your claim that magical fruit compounds cancel out the negative effects of fructose.
 

emceeemcee

Banned
Human body don't need animal fat. Everything what we need is in vegetables, fruist and milk products. There is no doubt about this.


I didn't say it was essential, but non-fat dairy is poison btw


casein is not an ideal protein for humans....


My health now is even better than when I was eating meat.


for now
 

squallumz

knows petras secret: she farted.
im kinda close. been veg at one time.

i prefer vegetables to meat. normally i eat seafood and some poultry. i stay away from pork in all forms.
 
That graph is compiled from statistics from the British Heart Foundation's website.

According to whom, exactly? The person making the claims is essentially anonymous, and has zero credibility. Hell, their "citation" of the British Heart Foundation is a hyperlink to their graph. It's hogwash; Joe Shmoe could make a claim that eating plastic is healthful, and provide an equally attractive graph with no scholarly link, and it'd be just as credible.


That is just speculation and you are ignoring the data where people do eat large amounts of saturated fat and have no heart disease.

While I have to admit, I was a bit overzealous in throwing in Vitamins A and E, science says it's not speculation. I propound:

Vitamin K has been linked to lower rates of cardiovascular disease.

Vitamin D too.


It seems to suggest that saturated fat has absolutely nothing to do with heart disease even when people get 50% of their daily calories from as with the Tokelaun.

Where did it say they were restricting calories?

They were not consuming saturated fat in moderation. It was making up half of their daily calories

They were subsistence farmers. Let's take a look at the list of modern subsistence farmers: much of Africa, much of India, parts of South America, Mexico, and a whole slew of third world countries. Not exactly cultures in which caloric intake is remarkably high, nor food aplenty. Sure, they didn't explicitly say the caloric intake was limited, but when they can only farm to feed their families, that historically hasn't translated into calories being plentiful.



You missed the most important part of the article:

So here’s the simple question and the point: how can saturated fat be bad for us if a high saturated fat diet lowers L.D.L. at least as well as a diet that has 20 to 25 percent less saturated fat?

It could be argued (and probably will be) that the effect of the saturated fat is confounded by the reduction in calories, but the A.H.A. diet also reduces calories and in fact specifies caloric reduction while the low-carb diet does not.

There was absolutely no control for the source of saturated fat in that study. Why is that important? Couple it with a caloric decrease, and you have no way to assess what caused the drop. If they had fed the lower L.D.L. group nothing but lard for a year, sure that makes a compelling case, but they have literally nothing to point to as the cause here.

Under this study, these two situations are equally applicable:

1. A subject in the lower L.D.L. group eats three cups of garbanzo beans twice daily for a weekly total of 30g of saturated fat per week.

2. A subject in the lower L.D.L. group eats two pieces of bacon daily, for a weekly total of 30g of saturated fat.

The methodology is flawed, and because of that, there's no realistic conclusion that can be drawn. The whole findings section is turbid at best.

It only points to the suggestion of moderation being key if one chooses to ignore data showing saturated fat intake in the context of a diet which doesn't restrict calories which includes the examples using the BHF stats, the Masai, the Tokelau migrant study and the Stanford study I posted earlier.

No, it doesn't. If I am on a 3400 calorie per day diet, as is the rough average for the US, and 65% of it is saturated fat, you're looking at roughly 2210 calories from saturated fat, or about 245 grams of saturated fat a day. Now if we take the caloric intake of a reduced calorie diet, say 1800 calories per day (most of the world struggles to get close to this much), and you up the intake of saturated fat to 80%, you're still only getting 1440 calories from it, or 160 grams of saturated fat. Which is the exact problem for the "Whole Health Source" blog: it plays with percentages without regard to caloric intake, which again detracts from the credibility of the conclusion. Yet, again, moderation is the direction we're heading.

The Stanford study makes no claims about health benefits, merely which diet provided the most weight loss for a small subset of the human population.

Again, that is mere speculation unless you provide evidence for it.

Ask, and ye shall receive.

First you say saturated fat is bad and should be moderated now you say it's the vitamins and minerals mitigating the supposedly bad effects. You're shifting your argument.

I should have been more clear. Saturated fat isn't by definition bad, if that's what you've gathered from me, I have done a poor job of relaying my point. Rather, saturated fat in excess has been shown to be harmful. My point about vitamins and minerals mitigating bad effects was more as proof of concept that saturated fat in moderation isn't bad: foods high in vitamins and minerals that also contain saturated fat tend to have the effects of excess saturated fat tempered by said vitamins and minerals, as both have been linked to lowering the exact phenomenon that excesses of saturated fat have been linked to.

There is no evidence showing that munching on plants is going to significantly boost your health (yet there is evidence against it) and there is also plenty of reason not to eat lots of fruit unless of course you are going to support your claim that magical fruit compounds cancel out the negative effects of fructose.

Again, I'm not trying to vouch for vegetarianism as a healthier lifestyle. My point remains that vegetables do indeed provide nutritional benefit through vitamins and minerals that have been shown to have long term beneficial effects, as evidenced in my links above.
 

emceeemcee

Banned
According to whom, exactly?

Anyone who wants check it out can easily look at the BHF stats and see how they correspond, which they do.

While I have to admit, I was a bit overzealous in throwing in Vitamins A and E, science says it's not speculation. I propound:

Your claim was that saturated is bad yet certain vitamins mitigate it. I don't see how studies showing the benefits of those vitamins in isolation is really relevant to that claim.

They were subsistence farmers. Let's take a look at the list of modern subsistence farmers: much of Africa, much of India, parts of South America, Mexico, and a whole slew of third world countries. Not exactly cultures in which caloric intake is remarkably high, nor food aplenty. Sure, they didn't explicitly say the caloric intake was limited, but when they can only farm to feed their families, that historically hasn't translated into calories being plentiful.

Nowhere in that study does it say they are restricting calories so I'm not sure where you are getting that information from apart from speculating.

I came across another paper on the Tokeluans which records their daily caloric intake- 2520. That is the recommended daily intake for adults.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/297/9/969.abstract?sid=9a3d79d5-ec88-49f6-bb87-4a5f5bfc0133


There was absolutely no control for the source of saturated fat in that study. Why is that important?

Are you now arguing that it's the source of saturated fat which determines heart disease? not saturated fat itself? If that is the case I don't see how that is at all relevant....

No, it doesn't. If I am on a 3400 calorie per day diet, as is the rough average for the US, and 65% of it is saturated fat, you're looking at roughly 2210 calories from saturated fat, or about 245 grams of saturated fat a day. Now if we take the caloric intake of a reduced calorie diet, say 1800 calories per day (most of the world struggles to get close to this much), and you up the intake of saturated fat to 80%, you're still only getting 1440 calories from it, or 160 grams of saturated fat. Which is the exact problem for the "Whole Health Source" blog: it plays with percentages without regard to caloric intake, which again detracts from the credibility of the conclusion. Yet, again, moderation is the direction we're heading.

A greater proportion of calories from saturated fat should see a rise in heart disease. This isn't the case.

Masai tribesman who were eating 3000 calories a day with 3/4 of that coming from saturated fat had no heart disease. That is a LOT of saturated fat. If anyone should be keeling over it would be them.

The Stanford study makes no claims about health benefits, merely which diet provided the most weight loss for a small subset of the human population.

After 12 months, women following the Atkins diet, relative to at least one of the other groups, had larger decreases in body mass index, triglycerides and blood pressure; their high-density lipoprotein, the good kind of cholesterol, increased more than the women on the other diets.



Again, what does this study have to do with your claim that these supposedly healthy foods magically cancel out unhealthy foods?

That link is a review of what are effectively junk observational studies which ignore evidence contradicting each of it's recommendations. I'll give you irrefutable links if you want to them, just don't want to branch out into another whole conversation here.

I should have been more clear. Saturated fat isn't by definition bad, if that's what you've gathered from me, I have done a poor job of relaying my point. Rather, saturated fat in excess has been shown to be harmful.

Ok I think I got that you said saturated fat was only bad in large amounts, but I'm just not seeing any data which proves that. Plenty which says the opposite though. A few more words on this:

In March the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition published a meta-analysis—which combines data from several studies—that compared the reported daily food intake of nearly 350,000 people against their risk of developing cardiovascular disease over a period of five to 23 years. The analysis, overseen by Ronald M. Krauss, director of atherosclerosis research at the Children’s Hospital Oakland Research Institute, found no association between the amount of saturated fat consumed and the risk of heart disease.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=carbs-against-cardio


Conclusions: A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat.
http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2...INDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT



Again, I'm not trying to vouch for vegetarianism as a healthier lifestyle. My point remains that vegetables do indeed provide nutritional benefit through vitamins and minerals that have been shown to have long term beneficial effects, as evidenced in my links above.

I don't dispute they are beneficial, but the magnitude of that benefit I is just so low as per the EPIC study that it's almost negligable.
 
Anyone who wants check it out can easily look at the BHF stats and see how they correspond, which they do.



Your claim was that saturated is bad yet certain vitamins mitigate it. I don't see how studies showing the benefits of those vitamins in isolation is really relevant to that claim.



Nowhere in that study does it say they are restricting calories so I'm not sure where you are getting that information from apart from speculating.

I came across another paper on the Tokeluans which records their daily caloric intake- 2520. That is the recommended daily intake for adults.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/297/9/969.abstract?sid=9a3d79d5-ec88-49f6-bb87-4a5f5bfc0133




Are you now arguing that it's the source of saturated fat which determines heart disease? not saturated fat itself? If that is the case I don't see how that is at all relevant....



A greater proportion of calories from saturated fat should see a rise in heart disease. This isn't the case.

Masai tribesman who were eating 3000 calories a day with 3/4 of that coming from saturated fat had no heart disease. That is a LOT of saturated fat. If anyone should be keeling over it would be them.



After 12 months, women following the Atkins diet, relative to at least one of the other groups, had larger decreases in body mass index, triglycerides and blood pressure; their high-density lipoprotein, the good kind of cholesterol, increased more than the women on the other diets.




Again, what does this study have to do with your claim that these supposedly healthy foods magically cancel out unhealthy foods?

That link is a review of what are effectively junk observational studies which ignore evidence contradicting each of it's recommendations. I'll give you irrefutable links if you want to them, just don't want to branch out into another whole conversation here.



Ok I think I got that you said saturated fat was only bad in large amounts, but I'm just not seeing any data which proves that. Plenty which says the opposite though. A few more words on this:

In March the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition published a meta-analysis—which combines data from several studies—that compared the reported daily food intake of nearly 350,000 people against their risk of developing cardiovascular disease over a period of five to 23 years. The analysis, overseen by Ronald M. Krauss, director of atherosclerosis research at the Children’s Hospital Oakland Research Institute, found no association between the amount of saturated fat consumed and the risk of heart disease.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=carbs-against-cardio


Conclusions: A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat.
http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2...INDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT





I don't dispute they are beneficial, but the magnitude of that benefit I is just so low as per the EPIC study that it's almost negligable.

If you're still convinced that vegetables don't provide healthful benefits, I can only ascribe it to sheer stubbornness. The research is out there, and if you don't choose to believe it, that's your choice. The studies I've linked have provided well structured studies, and if you still choose not to believe them, more power to you. I'm pretty much done with this if you've reached the point of discrediting the well performed studies and lending credence to those that are clearly flawed.

Feel free to have the final word, it's been fun. Have a good weekend. :hatsoff:
 

emceeemcee

Banned
If you're still convinced that vegetables don't provide healthful benefits, I can only ascribe it to sheer stubbornness. The research is out there, and if you don't choose to believe it, that's your choice. The studies I've linked have provided well structured studies, and if you still choose not to believe them, more power to you. I'm pretty much done with this if you've reached the point of discrediting the well performed studies and lending credence to those that are clearly flawed.

Feel free to have the final word, it's been fun. Have a good weekend. :hatsoff:


I wasn't going to reply as I'd only be repeating myself, but I came across more goodies which confirm the EPIC study findings:

CONCLUSION: Among survivors of early stage breast cancer, adoption of a diet that was very high in vegetables, fruit, and fiber and low in fat did not reduce additional breast cancer events or mortality during a 7.3-year follow-up period.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17635889

CONCLUSIONS: Over a mean of 8.1 years, a dietary intervention that reduced total fat intake and increased intakes of vegetables, fruits, and grains did not significantly reduce the risk of CHD, stroke, or CVD in postmenopausal women and achieved only modest effects on CVD risk factors, suggesting that more focused diet and lifestyle interventions may be needed to improve risk factors and reduce CVD risk.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16467234

This study failed to show any effect of a low-fat, high-fiber, high-fruit and -vegetable eating pattern on adenoma recurrence even with 8 years of follow-up.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17855692
 
Almost 3 years and going strong. I've never felt better and I don't feel guilty anymore. I don't really mind people eating meat (I'd prefer nobody did to be honest), but atleast use the kosher farms. I know alot of meat eaters couldn't give a shit but alot of them have pets and would hate if they were eaten.
 

squallumz

knows petras secret: she farted.
im not sure if i mentioned this but im pissed that i cant afford to be vegetarian.

wrap your head around that one.
 
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