3/4 mile kill with .308 in Iraq

[member2686]

You forgot to include one key word in your post, revidffum... "Again."

:2 cents:

...and I'm sure one day...we will come to rescue your sorry ass too.

 

[Red Spyder]

I said it once, and I'll say it again, the United States of America is a menace...... but only to world dictators and wanna be dictators who, as long as their people know that there's a country where the people choose their leader and have an opportunity to vent their hatred of said leader, will always feel that their people may one day rise, just like the colonists did back in 1774 and get rid of them to start a free society where they can too express and live anyway they want to live.

Like it or not, we're the "land of the free", a beacon of freedom in a sea of oppression, where we can express our points of view for or against anything without being afraid of being run over by tanks. Otherwise, why is that that most rafts floating in the Gulf of Mexico are full of Cubans floating this way and not Americans on the way to Cuba? Why is it that so many Chinese actually prefer to be smuggled across the Pacific Ocean instead of staying in a wonderful "progressive" country free of American Imperialism? Not to mention all the people from Latin America risking their lives crossing a desert.

I've always measured a country's greatness by the number of people who want to live there and a country's oppression by the number of people who risk their lives to leave (i.e. Cuba, China, North Korea, Iran, the old Soviet Union, not to mention all those crosses that used to be where the Berlin Wall used to be)

So, if the U.S. is so oppressive, why stay? Germany in the 1930's. A lot of people who knew what was coming when Hitler took power left, i.e. Einstein. So, my left leaning friends, do what Einstein would do! The man was a genius! Look for a country more in line to your beliefs and defect! The border is wide open. You can walk up to a crossing point to Mexico or Canada and the Border Patrol won't shoot you or otherwise stop you from leaving, unlike the Border guards back in the East Berlin days (or the North Koreans these days)

 

[D-rock]

Plundering? Those bastards have made a fortune on selling that oil you claim we are plundering. The US hasn't plundered a damn thing.

Usually I agree with you Seraphim, and on most of your points you are probably right, but keep in mind that the common people in the Middle East that we take oil from don't reap the harvest of that oil. It is ruled by a select few that are richer than God while a large portion of the nations live in abject poverty. The fact we side with the "Tyrants" for are own benefit sits ill with a lot of people in that region. In that way maybe we are plundering their resources. If a select few people took over our country like a totalitarian dictatorship or oligarchy, I would feel the same way if they just let some other country come over and take all are wood, water, minerals, and are other natural resources. Especially if we got nothing and the tyrants keep lining their ever-growing pockets with the money.

True, people should fight for their own freedom, and I have little respect for people that would choose to live in slavery. I have been taught my entire life that it is better to die free than live as a slave. I don't think we should be helping some of the people we do though just because they have something we want, or because they are slightly more controllable than the terrorist. I can see how we could be perceived as a little bit more than hypocritical. We might not necessarily go and help countries because they have oil, but we almost always do it because it involves are interest somehow. We don't do things out of the kindness of our hearts, as much as some Americans would like to think we do.

Also keep in mind the circumstances of our independence was almost unique in the history of our world. To have that many people at one place at one time that thought like that is a miracle in my view. The Atlantic Ocean that separated us from the Britain also helped a lot. We also had weapons at are disposal. A fact the pro gun control world seems to conveniently forget. Well that is until they’re going to be the ones that have to someday pay the piper. You have to keep in mind that should any of those country’s people choose to revolt, millions and millions would be slaughtered. Would it be worth it, yes to my, because in my view if you are not free why live anyhow? However, you can see how it wouldn't be nearly as easy as it was for us. Added to that fact is that anybody that rebels from now on will forever more be labeled a terrorist, us included someday, whether they only hit legitimate non innocent targets or not. Even we the US of A will condemn them and still back the people in charge.

Make no mistake about it. The USA has some serious flaws, and some true strengths. I not only going to look at one and dismiss the other. To do so would be to ignore reality. The problem with the people that hate us is in the fact that they label all Americans together. I would like to be treated as an individual and not somehow as a part of the "evil American government" just as I don't look upon every Middle Easterner as a terrorist. To be honest and to not ignore reality I do know some Americans that see every Muslim as a terrorist and would wipe them out if they could, some sad to say that are in my own family, so I guess in some ways human nature still rules out and some of use are just as bad as the bad people over there.

I said it once, and I'll say it again, the United States of America is a menace...... but only to world dictators and wanna be dictators who, as long as their people know that there's a country where the people choose their leader and have an opportunity to vent their hatred of said leader, will always feel that their people may one day rise, just like the colonists did back in 1774 and get rid of them to start a free society where they can too express and live anyway they want to live.

Like it or not, we're the "land of the free", a beacon of freedom in a sea of oppression, where we can express our points of view for or against anything without being afraid of being run over by tanks. Otherwise, why is that that most rafts floating in the Gulf of Mexico are full of Cubans floating this way and not Americans on the way to Cuba? Why is it that so many Chinese actually prefer to be smuggled across the Pacific Ocean instead of staying in a wonderful "progressive" country free of American Imperialism? Not to mention all the people from Latin America risking their lives crossing a desert.

Well the US does try to manipulate and control a lot more than just dictators around the world. We can't keep ourselves from having our proverbial fingers in the political and economic cookie jar that belongs to other countries. Anyhow, I wouldn't get too comfortable with the whole America is the land of the free stuff. I see our liberties slip away little by little as time moves on. Sometime I feel as if I am starting to see the "beginning of the end" of this country. Sure now people will come over here, but more and more I think that is just because we suck a little less than other places in the world, and not because we are this great beacon everybody thinks we are. We are controlled by the elite in this country just like any other. The difference FOR NOW is just that we can vote for the lesser of two evils unlike some of the other countries, and we have protections, for now, that limit what they can do to use. Make no mistake about it; we are not governed by angels, but by men. Men that are just as susceptible to human nature as they have been since the beginning. We are slowly turning more towards corruption, and sadly to say either because we have become sheep, complacent, or just because it is happening very gradually, we don't seem to want to make it stop. From my experience it is all three.

 

[SeraphiM]

Usually I agree with you Seraphim, and on most of your points you are probably right, but keep in mind that the common people in the Middle East that we take oil from don't reap the harvest of that oil. It is ruled by a select few that are richer than God while a large portion of the nations live in abject poverty. The fact we side with the "Tyrants" for are own benefit sits ill with a lot of people in that region. In that way maybe we are plundering their resources. If a select few people took over our country like a totalitarian dictatorship or oligarchy, I would feel the same way if they just let some other country come over and take all are wood, water, minerals, and are other natural resources. Especially if we got nothing and the tyrants keep lining their ever-growing pockets with the money.

True, people should fight for their own freedom, and I have little respect for people that would choose to live in slavery. I have been taught my entire life that it is better to die free than live as a slave. I don't think we should be helping some of the people we do though just because they have something we want, or because they are slightly more controllable than the terrorist. I can see how we could be perceived as a little bit more than hypocritical. We might not necessarily go and help countries because they have oil, but we almost always do it because it involves are interest somehow. We don't do things out of the kindness of our hearts, as much as some Americans would like to think we do.

Also keep in mind the circumstances of our independence was almost unique in the history of our world. To have that many people at one place at one time that thought like that is a miracle in my view. The Atlantic Ocean that separated us from the Britain also helped a lot. We also had weapons at are disposal. A fact the pro gun control world seems to conveniently forget. Well that is until they’re going to be the ones that have to someday pay the piper. You have to keep in mind that should any of those country’s people choose to revolt, millions and millions would be slaughtered. Would it be worth it, yes to my, because in my view if you are not free why live anyhow? However, you can see how it wouldn't be nearly as easy as it was for us. Added to that fact is that anybody that rebels from now on will forever more be labeled a terrorist, us included someday, whether they only hit legitimate non innocent targets or not. Even we the US of A will condemn them and still back the people in charge.

Make no mistake about it. The USA has some serious flaws, and some true strengths. I not only going to look at one and dismiss the other. To do so would be to ignore reality. The problem with the people that hate us is in the fact that they label all Americans together. I would like to be treated as an individual and not somehow as a part of the "evil American government" just as I don't look upon every Middle Easterner as a terrorist. To be honest and to not ignore reality I do know some Americans that see every Muslim as a terrorist and would wipe them out if they could, some sad to say that are in my own family, so I guess in some ways human nature still rules out and some of use are just as bad as the bad people over there.

I agree with your well written post.
There is a line in the Declaration of Independence that our constitutional law professor made us memorize.
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government"

That is what sets us apart from most countries.
The power lies within the people not any appointed government. The US is not perfect in any shape or form, but it was created with the promise of freedom. Freedom is never gained with out loss.

 

[georges]

great posts DRock, Seraphim, red spyder and revidffum :thumbsup::hatsoff:

 

[Rastagir]

I am sorry, but making a hero of a man who "started with squirrels, moved to deer and, finally, humans" just doesn't sit well with me. The guy is obviously a soldier just doing his job (and he does it well as it seems), he is in the middle of a war, and he was not called there becaused he played a mean banjo.....but I don't know. Yes, the other guy was the enemy. Yes, he is there doing exactly that, killing people. Yes, it was an one-in-a-lifetime-shot for Sgt Jim Gilliland. But so was for the bugger who was killed. I am sorry that I cannot celebrate with you the death (just or unjust, I won't judge that) of another human being.

I choose not to talk about all the other things said on this thread. Pretty much all the views are covered. But the day we celebrate the death of another and make war a sport and an opportunity for records....I don't know. Yes, we all need our heroes, in war and peace. But this? It just doesn't sit well with me. Just my opinion.

 

[georges]

I am sorry, but making a hero of a man who "started with squirrels, moved to deer and, finally, humans" just doesn't sit well with me. The guy is obviously a soldier just doing his job (and he does it well as it seems), he is in the middle of a war, and he was not called there becaused he played a mean banjo.....but I don't know. Yes, the other guy was the enemy. Yes, he is there doing exactly that, killing people. Yes, it was an one-in-a-lifetime-shot for Sgt Jim Gilliland. But so was for the bugger who was killed. I am sorry that I cannot celebrate with you the death (just or unjust, I won't judge that) of another human being.

I choose not to talk about all the other things said on this thread. Pretty much all the views are covered. But the day we celebrate the death of another and make war a sport and an opportunity for records....I don't know. Yes, we all need our heroes, in war and peace. But this? It just doesn't sit well with me. Just my opinion.

At least you are honest and that is very appreciated.

 

[Rastagir]

I remember reading the Iliad by Homer, when I was a boy. It refers to the 10-year war between the Greeks and the Trojans, over a woman, Helen of Troy. The whole poem told the tale of the last year of the war, where the Greeks finally managed to enter Troy and burn her to the ground.
When I was a kid, I thought that this was what war was all about. Where glorious heroes, like Achillies, Odysseus, and others, battled all day, killing hundreds, if not thousands in one day. That the just ones won and the unjust lost. That there was not gray, but only black and white. That war was poetry, where the heroes returned home, and their tales were going to live forever.
But, one day, when I got older, decided to re-read the Heliad. And started reading between the lines. The Greek were not "the good" guys, and the Trojans were not "the bad guys". Both sides had their heroes, both sides had their bastards, both sides were right and both sides were wrong. And, I believe, this is typical in every war. And the Greeks may have won the war, but at what a price. None, absolutely none of the kings who lead the campaign returned home easily,or even alive. Achilles and Patroclus died on the battlefield, Ajax commited suicided disgraced, Odusseus took 20 years to get home, Agamemnon was murdered by his wife and her lover upon his return.
I understood then that war was not a contest. There are not winners and losers in the long run. There is no absolute victory, and there is pain, and suffering, and loss on both sides. Kings (and presidents and generals and all those who float to the top, like the bubbles when you throw a rock in a swamp) may have their name in history, but who remembers the poor buggers who die by the thousands in a battlefield?
I hate war. It seems to be the first and not the last resort of man, when trouble arrives. It makes us beasts, rejoicing the pain and the loss of others, hating people because someone tells us to do, makes a man kill another for no other reason because those fucks who rule can't find a way to communicate with one another. And these same are the bastards who stay behind while troops are killing one another, the ones who wear the only helmet on the battlefield,behind the only rock, screaming "Charge my braves!"
I hate war. And I hate seeing people taking it lightly, like it is just another show with special effects, just like another movie, where the bad guys stand up when the director says "Cut! Next time when you die, scream a little bit more". I am not a pacifist, I am not living in a Utopia, I am not saying that sometimes when push comes to shove and one must either fight or die, we should say "can't we all have a beer, throw a few punches around and forget the whole damn thing?". But that doesn't make me like it. And sure as hell won't clap for the guy who sees it as sport. You want to help your country? Do it. Don't gloat over it. And I am sure that there are hundreds of americans who try to help the whole damn mess down there, who stay up in hospitals and tend to ones in need. Why we hear none of that? Why we only hear about the ones who kill and not the ones who help?
I also appreciate your views. I know that you are proud of your country, and you damn well should be. You have a great country. But not because one of yours did a 3/4 of a mile kill. Not for that reason.

 

[Jacksson_77]

I remember reading the Iliad by Homer, when I was a boy. It refers to the 10-year war between the Greeks and the Trojans, over a woman, Helen of Troy. The whole poem told the tale of the last year of the war, where the Greeks finally managed to enter Troy and burn her to the ground.
When I was a kid, I thought that this was what war was all about. Where glorious heroes, like Achillies, Odysseus, and others, battled all day, killing hundreds, if not thousands in one day. That the just ones won and the unjust lost. That there was not gray, but only black and white. That war was poetry, where the heroes returned home, and their tales were going to live forever.
But, one day, when I got older, decided to re-read the Heliad. And started reading between the lines. The Greek were not "the good" guys, and the Trojans were not "the bad guys". Both sides had their heroes, both sides had their bastards, both sides were right and both sides were wrong. And, I believe, this is typical in every war. And the Greeks may have won the war, but at what a price. None, absolutely none of the kings who lead the campaign returned home easily,or even alive. Achilles and Patroclus died on the battlefield, Ajax commited suicided disgraced, Odusseus took 20 years to get home, Agamemnon was murdered by his wife and her lover upon his return.
I understood then that war was not a contest. There are not winners and losers in the long run. There is no absolute victory, and there is pain, and suffering, and loss on both sides. Kings (and presidents and generals and all those who float to the top, like the bubbles when you throw a rock in a swamp) may have their name in history, but who remembers the poor buggers who die by the thousands in a battlefield?
I hate war. It seems to be the first and not the last resort of man, when trouble arrives. It makes us beasts, rejoicing the pain and the loss of others, hating people because someone tells us to do, makes a man kill another for no other reason because those fucks who rule can't find a way to communicate with one another. And these same are the bastards who stay behind while troops are killing one another, the ones who wear the only helmet on the battlefield,behind the only rock, screaming "Charge my braves!"
I hate war. And I hate seeing people taking it lightly, like it is just another show with special effects, just like another movie, where the bad guys stand up when the director says "Cut! Next time when you die, scream a little bit more". I am not a pacifist, I am not living in a Utopia, I am not saying that sometimes when push comes to shove and one must either fight or die, we should say "can't we all have a beer, throw a few punches around and forget the whole damn thing?". But that doesn't make me like it. And sure as hell won't clap for the guy who sees it as sport. You want to help your country? Do it. Don't gloat over it. And I am sure that there are hundreds of americans who try to help the whole damn mess down there, who stay up in hospitals and tend to ones in need. Why we hear none of that? Why we only hear about the ones who kill and not the ones who help?
I also appreciate your views. I know that you are proud of your country, and you damn well should be. You have a great country. But not because one of yours did a 3/4 of a mile kill. Not for that reason.

100% agreed, I couldn't add anything more. Have some rep for that!

EDIT: as soon as I'm able to rep you again, that is...

:hatsoff: Jackson

 

[Surferman774]

I love how he refers to the UN some powerful organization that can tell countires what it can and cannot do......UN- a large group of countries who work together to make earth a better place. The UN does not police the world and never will.

You say killing an american soldier isnt entriely wrong? Of course its wrong, Taking a life is the worst crime you can commit. And you said all people have Rights? what about the soldiers rights to live? dont cross your own opinion and expect to get away with it......

USA has no interests of other countries?
Gulf War, Worls Wars I&II

Oh you the "ignorance on this board is truly frightening", it is considering you call USA a bunch of "Hill-Billies" who "drink beer, bowl, and eat burgers" Whats wrong with drinking and/or eating? Whats wrong with bowling? If you can give me a reasonable answer then I may actualy think you are smart and not being ignorant yourself....


You said Your country will save our asses because you have oil and that you dont have WMD's?

Well last time I checked We are dismantling Nukes everyday....oh and as for our interests we actualy help other countries dismantle as well.......

One more thing, You said that there is no Democracy in Saudi Arabia....we know, and if there was yes there would be non-muslims aloud in because to have a democracy is to have a free nation....hence democracy

We fight for our freedom not hide behind the truth and let it all blow by without your say in how this world is ran. I dont care who it is, you have legitimate evidence you cant ignore it.....Oh and yea war in my opinion is not a very good chice but when like I said there is evidence that is legit (at the time) then you cannot ignore it not matter what, we worked with saddam and they turned into hushpuppies and started to arm and ready for war. If they had proved they didnt have WMD's we wouldnt be in Iraq would we?

 

[niptuck]

a break from porn

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[niptuck]

name that hardcore insurgent

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[niptuck]

soon to be anal rape

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[sammy402002]

Yes, we get it ...YOU hate the United States of America. .....Oh and EVERYONE else hate us too.

Is that about right? Did I miss anything?

The United States of America has been supporting the WORLD for a long time.--We help more people than anyone.---Read the fuckin U.N-(hahaha) books....So why hate us...because We have the best economy?-best standard of living?-Everyone wants to live here?---mmm---See what the best Nation has to offer.....visit here & meet the nice people...We are agood Nation...It had to be said.......WELCOME...

 

[Red Spyder]

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight; nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety; is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by better men than himself."
John Stuart Mill

 

[Ovidius]

You have no evidence that many of the people killed in Iraq were members of Al Quaeda, and many prominent lawyers worldwide have declared the USA/UK invasion illegal.

Well, they do not necessarily have to be a-Q to qualify as illegal combatants... There are rules to which you must adhere if you wish to enjoy the protection given by the Geneva convention, and unless you do that you have no rights. Whether the invasion itself was illegal or not does not matter.

First, what does it take to qualify as a prisoner of war? Article IV of the Geneva Convention states that members of irregular militias like al Qaeda qualify for prisoner-of-war status if their military organization satisfies four criteria.

The criteria are: "(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly; [and] (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war."

Al Qaeda does not satisfy these conditions. Perhaps Osama bin Laden could be considered "a person responsible for his subordinates," although the cell structure of al Qaeda belies the notion of a chain of command. But in any event, al Qaeda members openly flout the remaining three conditions.

Al Qaeda members deliberately attempt to blend into the civilian population - violating the requirement of having a "fixed distinctive sign" and "carrying arms openly." Moreover, they target civilians, which violates the "laws and customs of war."

Thus, al Qaeda members need not be treated as prisoners of war. [Nor any other persons not complying with these criteria.]

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20020123.html

This link from Wikipedia confirms reports that ''The United States had reportedly been using incendiaries in the 2003 invasion of Iraq. In August 2003, U.S. Marine pilots and their commanders confirmed the use of Mark 77 firebombs on people. 'We napalmed both those [bridge] approaches,' said Colonel James Alles, commander of Marine Air Group 11. 'Unfortunately there were people there ... you could see them in the cockpit video. They were Iraqi soldiers. It's no great way to die. The generals love napalm. It has a big psychological effect. These bombs contain a substance "remarkably similar" to napalm. This substance is made with kerosene, a polystyrene derivative, and other additives'.''

In war people tend to die, and being napalmed is probably not a nice way to go; however the use of napalm is not illegal per se.

The use of flame weapons, such as Fougasse, the M202A1 Flash, white phosphorous, thermobaric, and other incendiary agents, against military targets is not a violation of current international law. They should not, however, be employed to just cause unnecessary suffering to individuals.

...

The 1980 Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons deals specifically with the Use of Incendiary Weapons, and their use against civilians. The United States is not a party to this Protocol.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/incendiary-legal.htm

If you do not sign the protocol, it does not apply to you.

 

[jdb67]

Actually the best sniper in the fictional realm is Sgt. Mack Bolan of the US Army Special Forces assigned to Pentration Team Able in Vietnam. He racked up 97 confirmed kills.
He is better known as 'The Executioner' in the longstanding book series started in 1969 and still going strong today.http://www.mackbolan.com

I have read a few of those....

 

[SeraphiM]

WoW, it amazes me how off topic all of us have gotten on this one

I believe that this thread was intentional flamed by youlneverstopme in his attempt to stir us all up and it seems to have worked to some extent.
I'm glad that a lot of us have shown restraint and not bought into the flaming of other peoples opinions or beliefs.
Let's try and keep it on topic and leave all of the serious debate to the professionals... The politicians :1orglaugh

 

[Rastagir]

WoW, it amazes me how off topic all of us have gotten on this one

I believe that this thread was intentional flamed by youlneverstopme in his attempt to stir us all up and it seems to have worked to some extent.
I'm glad that a lot of us have shown restraint and not bought into the flaming of other peoples opinions or beliefs.
Let's try and keep it on topic and leave all of the serious debate to the professionals... The politicians :1orglaugh

Seeing how the world is shaped by the politicians, they don't look THAT professional to me.....To me it seems more like a case of "Shoot now, ask questions later". And, to avoid misunderstanding, I am NOT reffering to the americans alone, but to politicians in general. Whoever designed the human race, did it with a major flow: the ability to bend their knees..........

 

[SeraphiM]

I was obviously being facetious " lets leave all of the serious debate to the professionals... The politicians "