Would it be better to just hand Afghanistan over to China?

[Ike Stain]

The Taliban aren't going anywhere and nothing we've done has worked despite trying to put a positive face on it. But it's not like the place is economically important, and now Osama is dead. They say if we abandon them China will move in, but would that be such a bad thing?

I don't see China getting all cozy with the Taliban because of the whole Uyghur thing; what they'd really want is a strong central government because it's good for commerce. Unlike us, they don't have all the pesky "human rights" concerns and would likely be much more effective at "taking care of business". Things might not be so great for the locals but it's not like it's that great now, and I guarantee there'd be economic development as hundreds of thousands of colonists start pouring in.

Am I crazy? Could this be the solution the West has been looking for?

 

[prof_porn]

Nope.

The USSR tried to subdue the Afghans with an iron fist. They lost an empire. No one has or can conquer the Afghans. They have been fighting for 3000 years, it's all they know. Even Alexander the Great made peace through marriage with these people.

They are the most ferocious fighters. Fearless, willing to suffer any hardship to win. NATO never stood a chance in this ill conceived war.

 

[Ike Stain]

Nope. The USSR tried to subdue the Afghans with an iron fist. They lost an empire.

And this was bad how?

 

[prof_porn]

Not bad at all, just telling you what happens. Afghanistan is called the graveyard of empires for a reason. The US needs to get out to save its self. Its losing billions there and lives too, with no real result.

 

[Ike Stain]

Not bad at all, just telling you what happens. Afghanistan is called the graveyard of empires for a reason. The US needs to get out to save its self. Its losing billions there and lives too, with no real result.

So yes, then. We're in agreement. (Please remember to vote, people!)

 

[cindy CD/TV]

It would nice to see China fumbling over itself trying to fight the terrorists. I kinda like the idea, let China deal with them. :thumbsup:

 

[Ike Stain]

It would nice to see China fumbling over itself trying to fight the terrorists. I kinda like the idea, let China deal with them. :thumbsup:

Right? See how they do against Terrorists as opposed to "terrorists".

 

[Ulysses31]

It would nice to see China fumbling over itself trying to fight the terrorists. I kinda like the idea, let China deal with them. :thumbsup:

Has it ever occured to you that maybe many of the fighters are ordinary Afghans fighting foreign invaders which we are? Didn't you also say that you'd join the army to protect the country if the US was invaded in another thread?, maybe Afghans are the same, they aint all Al-Qaeda. In any case who are we to give Afghanistan away, it's a sovereign nation.

 

[Ike Stain]

Has it ever occured to you that maybe many of the fighters are ordinary Afghans fighting foreign invaders which we are?

No question that the Taliban is seen as a patriotic as well as religious movement by those involved.
(We did warn them we were coming if they didn't give up Osama.)
It's a given we're the foreign invaders.

In any case who are we to give Afghanistan away, it's a sovereign nation.

"Give away" is meant euphemistically. (As "sovereign" certainly is in the case of a failed nation-state.)

It's more the idea that China will increase their influence as ours wanes. (They do sort of actually border the place, after all...)

 

[cindy CD/TV]

Has it ever occured to you that maybe many of the fighters are ordinary Afghans fighting foreign invaders which we are? Didn't you also say that you'd join the army to protect the country if the US was invaded in another thread?, maybe Afghans are the same, they aint all Al-Qaeda. In any case who are we to give Afghanistan away, it's a sovereign nation.

Except, that the Taliban are NOT "ordinary" Afghans. It that were the case, I would not support our efforts there. The Taliban was a brutal, repressive regime (see: Shariah Law) that harbored and provided support to al-Qaida -- and don't forget that there was a large resistance movement already fighting against the Taliban in the north when we first sent the troops in. A massive majority of Afghans celebrated the ouster of the Taliban and welcomed the arrival of democracy. Unfortunately, Karzai and his government are corrupt and perhaps conspiring behind the scenes WITH the Taliban. Calling Afghanistan, which is a loose collection of warring tribes, a sovereign nation is being a bit generous, but I digress before splitting a fine hair on that point. It's in no way hypocritical to want to fight for my country, lots of Afghans are dying fighting the Taliban, too. They are the true patriots in their country.
And regarding "giving away" the country, Ike states it perfectly. It's not ours to give. We are NOT occupiers. What's the difference you ask. Germany occupied Poland and France during World War II and took control over the government and suppressed the will of the people. We overthrew the Taliban and allowed free elections to take place. If the corrupt Afghan government would be cooperative with us, this thing would be over by now-- but we can't overthrow the ELECTED government in favor of a more cooperative one because that would indeed be hypocritical. So in other words, we're in a mess over there. So if we leave and China wants to step in to fill the void. Be my guest. :2 cents:

 

[Kingfisher]

There is nothing for us there.

 

[TheOrangeCat]

The Chinese already effectively controls Afghanistan .... as the major power behind the Golden Triangle heroin trade, they direct Afghanistan's only viable economic activity - poppy farming - sub rosa, and without having to get their hands dirty, or their citizens dead, policing that God forsaken shit hole.

 

[PirateKing]

Too practical.

I say leave it be. Like Dio said, it's an empire graveyard. China's smart enough not to try invading when they already have control over their drug trade as OC mentioned. Afghanistan is their Mexico.

 

[vodkazvictim]

And this was bad how?

You think the USSR was only bad? Do you think we're any better? You're presumably unaware that the Soviet Union had very high standards of child care, allowing the mothers to work much easier?
You know how you buy a telly and it breaks in 5 years? That's done on purpose so you'll have to buy a new one. That tech wasn't allowed in the USSR.

Has it ever occured to you that maybe many of the fighters are ordinary Afghans fighting foreign invaders which we are? Didn't you also say that you'd join the army to protect the country if the US was invaded in another thread?, maybe Afghans are the same, they aint all Al-Qaeda. In any case who are we to give Afghanistan away, it's a sovereign nation.

^^Nomming this for POTW, it's just perfect.

As for A-stan, we never should have gone there, but should china dare to try it, here's the thing...
1: china's military is not exactly fearsome; they managed not to beat India!
2:Afghanistan is a country of mountains and hills in many places. That means a great advantage to the defenders and really restricts the ability to use vehicles. Like tanks.
3: Afghanistan, as Dionysius said, is the graveyard of empires. We should never have gone in.
I heard they were gonna deploy M1s there. Should be interesting to see how they do.
Apparently the legacy of Soviet armoured hoards means Afghans are shit-scared of heavy armour.

 

[lurkingdirk]

But...From where would we get our opium?


I don't think it a terribly good idea to "hand it over" to China. For one thing, the Russians proved it won't work to go in and just carpet bomb the entire country. For another, it would give China quite a strategic foothold in a very tumultuous part of the world, and if they were "successful" in stamping out the Taliban, what would prevent them from doing the same or similar in adjacent countries?

Edit: I didn't vote, because I don't like the choices. I don't think the US should stay at all costs, but I do not think they should just hand the situation over to China, either.

 

[Shifty]

Still not sure why we're there.

 

[Trident1]

China is only interested in helping it's ally Pakistan hold sway over Afghanistan and topple Karzai. Also China hates India which both China and Pakistan view as wanting to gain influence in Afghanistan. All in all a fucked up clusterfuck.

 

[Ike Stain]

You're presumably unaware that the Soviet Union had very high standards of child care, allowing the mothers to work much easier?

High quality, low-cost child care is un-American, just like universal health care and collective bargaining.

As for A-stan, we never should have gone there, but should china dare to try it, here's the thing...
1: china's military is not exactly fearsome; they managed not to beat India!
2:Afghanistan is a country of mountains and hills in many places. That means a great advantage to the defenders and really restricts the ability to use vehicles. Like tanks.

They kicked the ass of Tibet though. That's something.

Shit bro, they got 600,000,000 people fit for Military service—
I think they could get the job done with infantry.



All I'm saying is, one man's graveyard of empires is another man's
proving ground of KICK ASS COUNTRIES!

We did our stint now it's time to hand off the baton.

:glugglug: :glugglug: :glugglug: :glugglug: :glugglug: :glugglug::glugglug::glugglug:

 

[El Perro Mayor]

There is nothing for China to gain. Why would they take on such a mission. Unlike the U.S. they do not think of themselves as the world police.

 

[Connor Macleod]

We never had a legitimate reason to go into Iraq, but Afghanistan was different. The Taliban allowed terrorists to train there for the purpose of carrying out attacks against the US. When Obama took office, there was talk of the Americans pulling out and it pissed me off. I wanted them to stay until Bin Laden was dead, and we finally got the bastard. The only reason to stay now would be to track down and kill Mullah Omar, the Taliban leader who allowed Bin Laden to make camp in Afghanistan. I don't know if that's a good enough reason to stay since he's probably hiding in Pakistan like a coward.