Veterans Day/Remembrance Day/Armistice Day: Honoring the "Other Side"

[tvstrip]

This is an issue pretty close to me and my friends. With us having relatives that fought and died for Italy, Japan and Germany (among others) during WWII, it brings mixed emotions when the countries we live in commemorate Nov 11 as a day to remember those who "Fought the forces of evil". Yes, many of the Axis forces did some bad things, but the Allies weren't all saints themselves and there are countless stories of Axis soldiers acting with bravery and honor.

We often forget that in all the countries that celebrate Veterans/Remembrance/Armistice Day (esp US, Canada & UK) there are very large populations of descendants of Axis nations, and ceremonies that blindly paint all their ancestors as "evil" is insensitive (putting it lightly). Not all Germans were Jew-slaughtering Nazis and not all Japanese were Kamikaze rapists. In fact, due to conscription, many of these soldiers were simply forced into service.

We hear all these stories about Allied bravery, and there is no doubt that in the first half of the war this was truly the case. But I argue that in the latter half (especially 1944-45), there are far more instances of bravery coming from the Axis. True bravery is when despite overwhelming odds, you still fight on without giving up. The invading force at Normandy was 156 000 Allies vs 50 000 German Defenders. Iwo Jima was 70 000 US vs 22 000 Japanese.

My Grandfathers and Great Uncles fought on the front lines with dignity and honor and none committed any atrocities. My Grandmothers and Great Aunts worked in war factories under constant allied bombardment, unlike "Rosie the Riveter" who enjoyed a cushy work environment in comparison. I know I'm not unique because this is the story of many of those with Asian and European Heritage.

Some say that honoring enemy forces is not the responsibility of the victors. The sad part is while veterans in the Allied countries enjoy undulated praise, there is no such occasion for veterans of Axis forces, even in their home countries since doing so is instantly labeled as Fascist or worse. Look at what happens when a Japanese PM visits Yasukuni Shrine. Many Axis veterans are faced with the "war guilt" imposed by the post-WWII occupation forces that they are even ashamed of their service. I remember living in Australia when on ANZAC day Japanese were even told to avoid all ceremonial events "for their own safety".

I'm not a Nazi sympathizer or apologist. I'm not suggesting we have ceremonies specifically honoring Axis forces.
What I am saying is that Remembrance ceremonies should honor ALL those who fought for their country, regardless of the flag that may have been under.

 

[sean miguel]

I'm not a Nazi sympathizer or apologist. I'm not suggesting we have ceremonies specifically honoring Axis forces.
What I am saying is that Remembrance ceremonies should honor ALL those who fought for their country, regardless of the flag that may have been under.

No. If those in the former Axis countries want to have ceremonies honoring their war dead and even take the occasion of Armistice Day to do it, so be it.

But those who ended up as the victors should not honor "ALL" those who fought for their country. It's moral equivalence. The Chinese aren't going to honor the brave soldiers who fought for Imperial Japan. The mayor of Nanjing agrees.

 

[tvstrip]

I get your example about China. But I'm specifically speaking about countries that celebrate Veterans/Remembrance Day, since these are countries that have particularly large Axis-nation immigrant populations who are annually shunned by these ceremonies.

 

[bobjustbob]

Nov. 11 is not a celebration of victory, it marks the day that WWI ended. We do not celebrate the end of WWII. We remember those that lost their lives at Pearl Harbor Dec.7 just like we have recently done for 9/11. We celebrate all who wore the uniform on No. 11. Memorial Day celebrates those that have died while in service. This goes back to the civil war and celebrated on a day that has nothing to do with any particular date for any war. It is of each nation to celebrate and honor those who fight their own freedom. July 4th would never be celebrated in UK like we do in USA and I wouldn't expect them to. Their families fought just like ours did and should be remembered as they choose.

 

[tvstrip]

Good points Bob.

While it's true that Nov 11 initially commemorated the end of WWI, today it's primarily (not exclusively) about WWII for a variety of reasons, including the fact there are very few WWI veterans around today, and that WWII is easier to market. It's harder to paint Imperial Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire as "evil" than Nazi Germany. With the war on terror (esp with what happened in Ottawa) there is growing focus on modern wars, but the day is still predominantly about WWII.

Your example about Independence day makes sense, except that British Forces aren't nearly as vilified as the Axis (if vilified at all). Just compare Hitler to Lord North. Heck, I'd be surprised if the average American even knew who North was. It's this vilification that bothers me; I bet that if Commonwealth Soldiers were portrayed as equals to Nazi soldiers during Independence day ceremonies you'd be hearing a lot Brits complaining.

 

[bobjustbob]

How do we look at war? Memoirs passed down from those that served. The personal stories on hand written letters. Some are between loved ones and some are within command. Feet are burning in sand or cold and wet. All politics are aside because a job had to be done. Japanese Americans served USA proud when called upon and received honors for their valor even though many were put into camps. It was an ugly and frightening time. But the war is long since over. We mourn our own for their sacrifices, not revive the battles. Very few soldiers share their stories with the outside world. It's painful for them. 2 men (mostly teenagers) facing each other with a gun they didn't want to carry or be in the places they were standing. One goes home and the other may never be heard from again. No one celebrates this.

 

[Red XXX]

There is no celebration - it is a remembrance!

 

[Johan]

More than honoring people wjo fought for their countries, wether they were Axis or Allies, it's more about honoring the memory of people who's government have brought to the battlefields in their name or in the name of an ideology.

 

[Deepcover]

Remembrance...

 

[sean miguel]

I'm thankful the United States defeated the Japanese in WWII. My grandfather in the Philippines who was just a regular farmer guy, was strung up to a tree and beaten mercilessly by japanese soldiers because, I dunno, they thought it'd be fun. And that was nothing compared to the atrocities committed by the japanese in the P.I. and throughout their conquered territories.

Though I acknowledge the bravery and fanatical devotion japanese soldiers, sailors and pilots had to their emperor, I don't honor them for it. Again, I'm glad the Americans kicked their fucking ass.

 

[tvstrip]

How do we look at war? Memoirs passed down from those that served. The personal stories on hand written letters. Some are between loved ones and some are within command. Feet are burning in sand or cold and wet. All politics are aside because a job had to be done. Japanese Americans served USA proud when called upon and received honors for their valor even though many were put into camps. It was an ugly and frightening time....No one celebrates this.

More than honoring people wjo fought for their countries, wether they were Axis or Allies, it's more about honoring the memory of people who's government have brought to the battlefields in their name or in the name of an ideology.

Bob, Johan, you guys hit it right on. That's exactly the neutral tone I feel the ceremonies should take. Heck, I'd be overjoyed if the day centered around what you guys talked about instead of the typical "fought the forces of evil" rhetoric. War isn't Black and White. War doesn't determine who is right, it determines who is left.

And that was nothing compared to the atrocities committed by the japanese in the P.I. and throughout their conquered territories.
Though I acknowledge the bravery and fanatical devotion japanese soldiers, sailors and pilots had to their emperor, I don't honor them for it.

With all due respect to your family, just 30 years prior when the Americans were committing the atrocities against the Filipinos, that's somehow different?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine–American_War#American_atrocities

"our men have been relentless, have killed to exterminate men, women, children, prisoners and captives... the idea prevailing that the Filipino as such was little better than a dog"

And lets not forget that while Allies committed atrocities during WWII, none of them were prosecuted due to Victor's Justice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II

Anyways, let's not get into a debate about which side was good or bad in WWII. I'm not opening that can of worms; something like that can have its own thread. I just wanted to comment on November 11th. Thanks.

 

[Jagger69]

As has been said, "Veteran's Day" (as it is called in the USA) is a remembrance and expression of gratitude toward those who served their nation in time of both war and peace. "Memorial Day" is a remembrance and expression of gratitude word those who gave their lives in defense of their country. In the United States it is centered on those who served in the US military (and understandably so) and is not intended to rub anyone's face in the dirt nor is it intended to be a celebration of victory. On the contrary, both holidays are a solemn and dignified recognition of the hope and desire for peace.

 

[bobjustbob]

You learn something new every day. I had always thought that Memorial Day barbecues was simply a way to have a 3 day weekend to kickoff the summer season. Notwithstanding that the day was to honor those that served and had fallen, I never knew that there was actually an attachment. The earliest Memorial Days was a gathering of family. Churches held services with special recognition of those who had fallen. They would hold potluck lunches with blankets spread on the ground where people would place their dishes for all to share. Ain't that some shit.

 

[tvstrip]

Whether it is primarily for those who have died or those who served, the US and UK have 2 days to honor its Veterans. Other countries have at least one, whether it's Remembrance/Armistice/ANZAC day, but I know of at least 2 exceptions:

In Germany the closest thing is Volkstrauertag, which is 2 Sundays before Advent, usually close to Nov 11 (This year is Nov 16). It technically honors all those who died in "armed conflict". Thing is, they DON'T specifically honor war heroes, since originally the holiday was called Heldengedenktag which did exactly that. Problem is, Heldengedenktag was introduced by, you guessed it, the National Socialist party. Because of this, Germany goes out of its way to differentiate Volkstrauertag from Heldengedenktag, and in the process takes the emphasis off of its Veterans. It's more of a religious holiday now. For obvious reasons Germany can't openly honor its Veterans.

It's the same in Japan, the closest they have is Shūsen-kinenbi (End of the war memorial day) on Aug 15. What little focus Germans had for their Veterans on Volkstrauertag, Japan has NO focus on their Veterans on this day. I've visited Yasukuni Shrine on this day, and the only people honoring Veterans are the Far-FAR Right-wing Nationalists who are kept far away by the police. A priest leads a moment of silence for the dead, the Emperor says a couple of words and that it. No parade, no ceremonies for the Veterans, not even a quick mention. Again, like Germany, Japan can't openly honor their Veterans; if the PM even visits Yasukuni Shrine, they get lambasted by the international media.

Today I honor my ancestors who served their country with bravery and dignity, whether it was on the front lines or at the war factories at home. They didn't want the war, it was forced upon them and they served solely out of their duty to their flag. I would encourage anyone with German, Japanese, Italian or any heritage leading from an Axis nation to feel proud of their ancestors and honor them accordingly; show them the same respect that Veterans of the Allied nations are given this day. Everyone, regardless of nationality, that went through that experience deserves our remembrance. And like the posters here have noted, pray that future generations won't have to go through the same.

 

[Jagger69]

Whether it is primarily for those who have died or those who served, the US and UK have 2 days to honor its Veterans. Other countries have at least one, whether it's Remembrance/Armistice/ANZAC day, but I know of at least 2 exceptions:

In Germany the closest thing is Volkstrauertag, which is 2 Sundays before Advent, usually close to Nov 11 (This year is Nov 16). It technically honors all those who died in "armed conflict". Thing is, they DON'T specifically honor war heroes, since originally the holiday was called Heldengedenktag which did exactly that. Problem is, Heldengedenktag was introduced by, you guessed it, the National Socialist party. Because of this, Germany goes out of its way to differentiate Volkstrauertag from Heldengedenktag, and in the process takes the emphasis off of its Veterans. It's more of a religious holiday now. For obvious reasons Germany can't openly honor its Veterans.

It's the same in Japan, the closest they have is Shūsen-kinenbi (End of the war memorial day) on Aug 15. What little focus Germans had for their Veterans on Volkstrauertag, Japan has NO focus on their Veterans on this day. I've visited Yasukuni Shrine on this day, and the only people honoring Veterans are the Far-FAR Right-wing Nationalists who are kept far away by the police. A priest leads a moment of silence for the dead, the Emperor says a couple of words and that it. No parade, no ceremonies for the Veterans, not even a quick mention. Again, like Germany, Japan can't openly honor their Veterans; if the PM even visits Yasukuni Shrine, they get lambasted by the international media.

Today I honor my ancestors who served their country with bravery and dignity, whether it was on the front lines or at the war factories at home. They didn't want the war, it was forced upon them and they served solely out of their duty to their flag. I would encourage anyone with German, Japanese, Italian or any heritage leading from an Axis nation to feel proud of their ancestors and honor them accordingly; show them the same respect that Veterans of the Allied nations are given this day. Everyone, regardless of nationality, that went through that experience deserves our remembrance. And like the posters here have noted, pray that future generations won't have to go through the same.

:clap:

Don't forget Russia, who lost more of its population from a sheer numbers and percentage of the general populace standpoint than any other nation in WWII. Regardless of the cause, patriots of all nationalities risked and lost their lives on behalf of their homelands. This is an honorable act no matter the reason for their fighting. From country to country, people love their sons, daughters, mothers, brothers and fathers without qualification. Their nations should love and honor them in the same manner.

There is an excellent film that illustrates this point in a most striking and poignant fashion, Letters from Iwo Jima directed by Clint Eastwood. I highly recommend it for anyone who would honor the duty and dedication of all soldiers regardless of nationality.

 

[MustBeGood]

Actually Veterans Day was started by the League of Nations to remember the served and fallen of WWI.

WWI ended on the 11th month, on the 11th day, at the 11th hour in 1918.

 

[Jagger69]

Actually Veterans Day was started by the League of Nations to remember the served and fallen of WWI.

WWI ended on the 11th month, on the 11th day, at the 11th hour in 1918.

That holiday was originally known in the USA as "Armistice Day" beginning in 1938. In 1954, it was changed to "Veterans Day" to commemorate all those who served, fought and died in military service in all wars in which the USA was a participant. It is clearly differentiated from "Memorial Day" which is designed as a dedication and remembrance specifically for those who died in service to the USA in wartime. Otherwise, the two holidays would be redundant and, although from my view we can never do enough to recognize and honor our veterans who so nobly have served our nation, two distinct holidays are appropriate to provide adequate reminders. Problem is, way too many people just perceive it simply as a day off work and another excuse to get shitfaced (as if one is really needed, no?). :dunno:

Read more here if so inspired:

http://www.va.gov/opa/vetsday/vetdayhistory.asp

 

[MustBeGood]

That holiday was originally known in the USA as "Armistice Day" beginning in 1938. In 1954, it was changed to "Veterans Day" to commemorate all those who served, fought and died in military service in all wars in which the USA was a participant. It is clearly differentiated from "Memorial Day" which is designed as a dedication and remembrance specifically for those who died in service to the USA in wartime. Otherwise, the two holidays would be redundant and, although from my view we can never do enough to recognize and honor our veterans who so nobly have served our nation, two distinct holidays are appropriate to provide adequate reminders. Problem is, way too many people just perceive it simply as a day off work and another excuse to get shitfaced (as if one is really needed, no?). :dunno:

Read more here if so inspired:

http://www.va.gov/opa/vetsday/vetdayhistory.asp

LOL. But that is 17 weeks of NFL Sunday, Monday, and Thursday.

 

[maildude]

Kind of on-topic/off topic...but I am a fan of the 1990s HBO comedy Dream On, and I happen to be fortunate enough to have the entire series downloaded...thanks to a very diligent fan in the UK.
I remember back around the time of the 9/11 attacks they released the first two seasons of the six that were broadcast on DVD. Mysteriously, after that, they didn't release any of the other seasons. In fact the series was never broadcast on American cable TV as far as I know. I thought it was a licensing issue or some such thing, but after watching the episodes I noticed that the World Trade Center towers are shown in damned near every episode. I wonder now if that isn't the reason why the whole series was never released on DVD, and why we never see it in reruns. The U.S. and its allies went to war and continue to fight around the globe to this day, because of that horrific incident. After all this time it still leaves a lingering, aching sadness for many I am sure.

 

[meesterperfect]

The U.S. and its allies went to war and continue to fight around the globe to this day, because of that horrific incident. .

They sure did. And trillions of dollars was borrowed, spent, and landed in someones pockets,Millions killed because of that horrific incident.

Laws created, agencies created, billions borrowed, spent, and landing in someones pockets each year, because of that horrific incident.

Millions of civilians killed, millions more displaced, and millions relocated into areas where their people are not from, changing those places demographics which have existed for thousands of years forever. Because of that horrific incident.

And it was so easy to do.