...and from now on for me it´s OK to have the US joining the battlefield because they have without any doubt a right to defense their civil ppl. who are sitting in civil airplanes.
And @Timon : Did you hear the last press-conferences of *Mr. +Allah Gaddafi+ * himself ? Kid´s + youngsters started the revolution against him ???
Did Gaddafi smoke bad hashish ?? So he should order some good stuff from the neighborhood ....lol.
If the wikipage is accurate thenI don't think Libya's oil fields are anything to sniff at:
Oil reserves in Libya are the largest in Africa and the ninth largest in the world with 41.5 billion barrels (6.60×10^9 m3) as of 2007. Oil production was 1.8 million barrels per day (290×10^3 m3/d) as of 2006, giving Libya 63 years of reserves at current production rates if no new reserves were to be found. Libya is considered a highly attractive oil area due to its low cost of oil production (as low as $1 per barrel at some fields), and proximity to European markets. Libya would like to increase production from 1.8 Mbbl/d (290×10^3 m3/d) in 2006 to 3 Mbbl/d (480×10^3 m3/d) by 2010–13 but with existing oil fields undergoing a 7–8% decline rate, Libya's challenge is maintaining production at mature fields, while finding and developing new oil fields. Most of Libya remains unexplored as a result of past sanctions and disagreements with foreign oil companies.[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Libya
I always have a LOT of trepidation about getting involved in a civil war... but if the West limits their ROEs to taking out air systems, I supposed that's ok to give the rebels a shot. Hopefully the regional powers will step up and get involved as well.:2 cents:
RAF strikes against Gaddafi's forces branded 'a success' as bombed out tanks and cars litter the roads near Benghazi
* RAF Tornado jets launch 3,000-mile missile assault from Norfolk
* Arab League criticises strikes for going beyond the international agreement and killing civilians
* 94 people reported to have died in Gaddafi's strike on Benghazi
* Italy says it will do whatever it can to free crew of tugboat captured off the coast in Tripoli
* Cameron says 'what we are doing is necessary, legal and right'
* Chancellor George Osborne says no ground troop invasion on the cards 'at the moment'
* Three US B-2 stealth bombers dropped 40 bombs on Libyan airfields
* 112 Tomahawk missiles fired at Libyan air-defence by coalition troops
Full force: A huge explosion engulfs several cars with Gaddafi forces today as the full allied assault gets underway
A tank belonging to Gaddafi forces explodes in a ball of flames after an air strike by allied forces
A huge explosion follows an air strike this morning hitting vehicles along the road from Benghazi to Ajdabiyah
Four tanks destroyed by the allied aerial assault continue to smoulder in al-Wyfiyah 35 km West of Benghazi
An elderly rebel fighter gestures in front of a destroyed tank while the turret of a tank belonging to Gaddafi forces lies on the ground after an air assault
I never thought Obama would steer us into another Middle East situation that has nothing to do with America's safety or "the war on terror"...
What has happened to America and Diplomacy? All Economic Sanctions and a No Fly Zone did for Saddam was allow him the cover to use tanks to keep people in check and maintain power.
Using Economic Sanctions to get a population to turn against a dictator is a nice theory; it doesn't work in reality. When has it worked in reality?
THis is the U.N.'s mess, and all these idiot conservatives who have bashed the U.N. for years--well, I hope you enjoy sending your tax dollars to another middle east desert for nothing....
I never thought Obama would steer us into another Middle East situation that has nothing to do with America's safety or "the war on terror"...
What has happened to America and Diplomacy? All Economic Sanctions and a No Fly Zone did for Saddam was allow him the cover to use tanks to keep people in check and maintain power.
Using Economic Sanctions to get a population to turn against a dictator is a nice theory; it doesn't work in reality. When has it worked in reality?
THis is the U.N.'s mess, and all these idiot conservatives who have bashed the U.N. for years--well, I hope you enjoy sending your tax dollars to another middle east desert for nothing....
The media had a great part in getting us involved. Some people wanted to feel "Warm and fuzzy" and get involved to stop unsubstantiated "genocide". I mean after all CNN heard from some Libyan guy named Terek who heard it from some cab driver, who heard it from some shop owner that their was mass slaughter boo hoo hoo.
The second someone mentions the word "genocide" or "mass graves" blah blah blah the media goes wonky, chooses sides and passes the bullshit to the public who in turn buy it and the next thing you know our leaders are pressured to become embroiled in someone else's civil war.
This happened in Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, and now Libya. The media can unfortunately control foreign policy when it chooses to.
Nothing changes, Elizabeth I complained of excessive use of gunpowder during the Armada! Then refused to pay sailors for their services, most dying in the months after! Nighty, night
The good old days of the Empire. Right up there with shooting kids as deserters in WW1 who for some reason didn't want to fight in a dirty trench where they faced being sent to run at a machine gun or get attacked by nerve gas. The ruling classes have a lot to answer for!
enforcing a no fly zone by the US in Libya is a violation of the US constitution and should not be done, the so called US leaders who have authorized this have just committed an act of treason according to the US Constitution, I don't know about everyone else but I really am starting to get sick of all these wars, lets bring all the troops home and close the majority of US military bases worldwide, how's that for a new start
......* think the Germans should should have helped the French on this one though. *
Through * the backdoor * we do so , ...we offered to fly the AWAC`S over Afghanistan so other troops can move to Libya ...
And if the *legion etrangere`* will join the combat ...( what we possibly never will know ) ...a lot of Germans are part of it . Some 35 years ago the ol General + Pres. of France, Mr. Charles DeGaulle made a statement right in front of the *legion* ...he startet with the words : * Mes amis allemandes * ...( my German friends ) .
What do you need AWACS over Afghanistan for anyway? In case the Taliban attack with their feared magic carpet warriors? Isn't that what F(ailure) 22 is for?
Italy HAS to be friendly with Kaddaffi - the alternative is war with a neighbour. To win the war would be to gain a new province in the Middle East. To do that would be to face a wave of Islamic Extremist assaults, infiltrations and even attacks by other Middle East nation states on your brand new province which would itself be the very devil just to control (You wanna try holding a Middle Eastern country down? Just ask the French how they fared Vs. Morocco.)
I remember vividly when in 1986 when f111 advaarks and f18 a hornets bombed the Khadafi headquarters. I also remember that two tomcats, one flown by Lt Andy Minarski with Dave Venlett and the other flown by Tom Kaczinksi and Cleeman killed a Mig each in the syrian waters back in that day.I think two launch ICBM on khadafi naval,air bases and oil supplies will definitely damage his economy and his credibility. Also bombing relentlessly kadhafi's headquarters with jdam bombs and paveway II bombs will definitely make him think twice before attacking anyone .
What you may not have known is that Muammar Gaddaffi ordered his pilots to fly offensively at the USN F14s but NOT to fire - effectively making them sacrificial lambs.
He really is that ruthless and stupid.
Actually, I think a black ops head shot would be a less expensive way to an end result. The fucking guy never learns, he needed to go after Pan Am #800, and those F111 were supposed to teach him a lesson he obviously never learned. We should have just turned the Mossad loose on his sorry ass and saved ourselves a few billion dollars. I also think Tomahawk missiles will do fine...launching ballistic missiles might just be a little excessive. Funny how the French gave us shit back then about using their airspace, and now they're firing the first shot. Maybe they feel bad about selling Japan all of that plutonium.
While that (cheap assasination) is true, he would inevitably be replaced by another guy.
Of course, the next guy could always be disposed of equally cheaply.
I don't think you used French airspace in that mission. You did intentionally attack the French Embassy tho.
Even if the Italians helped they would only get in the way, it pretty much started going downhill for them when they had to use chemical weapons when they invaded Ethiopia (Abyssinia) in 1935, eventhough most of the Ethiopians were armed with spears and bows. Hitler must have been on crack when he picked the Italians as allies.
Question
How many gears does an Italian tank have?
Answer
5, 4 reverse and 1 forward incase the enemy attacks from behind.
@Trident : With my heart I´d really loooooooovve to have some of the German Eurofighters down there, ...just the paycheck for the discotheque La Belle in Berlin and for the civil airplane in the UK ....but otherwise us Germans are known for the last 2 world-wars ...so better not . Know what I mean ?
I think the Americans just took out the air defence systems so it was safe for French and UK planes, they probably had the most suitable weapons and intelligence to do that the most effectively. Obama has said that no US ground troops will be involved.
The UK has been doing secret trade deals with Gaddafi for some time now, they wanted to avoid this but Gaddafi continued to attack his own people and they continued to rise up. I believe Libya has already reached compensation agreements with the UK, US and Germany :dunno:
The americans would be very usefull for taking out an enemy's SAM system.
I believe they haven't retired the EA6 Prowler yet. That thing is electronic warfare par excellance. Likely the americans used it to fly from their carriers, disable and destroy Gaddaffi's SAM system.
Crusaders ((They r saying they fight 4 morals and equity and justice ...etc but they do it 4 there own interest petrol regional domenation..etc))....I wasnt supporting Kaazzafi
but when the US and west interfered I dont want them in our countries
they are same as Muslim brotherhood Qadaa..etc just looking for there own interest useing Islam
USA and the west look for there own interest useing democeracy ((Iraq -Afghan-....etc))
So the stupid western leaders have successfully gained alot of enemies and make alot of nutral arabian people ((me included)) turn against them and converted them 2 support kazzafi
Given that this is the closest we can get to understanding a Middle Eastern mindset (how many other active posters from that region do we have on FO?) this is scary. More so considering that he's demonstrated a post history of pacifism and understanding of a modern mindset.
He will understand the mindset of the region better than any of us. If he says we piss off the whole region, he's more likely than anyone here to be right.
Hands up if you think pissing off the whole region is a good thing.
And I mentioned, that Gaddafi made the statement, to shoot -down civil/tourist airplanes over Libya . I think you did NOT ( want ) to notice this. For this statement ALONE I wish him a cruise-missile right into his azz !
Please show him some respect.
Western opinions are a dime a dozen on the net, but I only know of one Egyptian. Please don't scare him away from FO: The laws of supply and demand make his opinion and thoughts valuable.
I never thought Obama would steer us into another Middle East situation that has nothing to do with America's safety or "the war on terror"...
What has happened to America and Diplomacy? All Economic Sanctions and a No Fly Zone did for Saddam was allow him the cover to use tanks to keep people in check and maintain power.
Using Economic Sanctions to get a population to turn against a dictator is a nice theory; it doesn't work in reality. When has it worked in reality?
THis is the U.N.'s mess, and all these idiot conservatives who have bashed the U.N. for years--well, I hope you enjoy sending your tax dollars to another middle east desert for nothing....
What do you mean by "prop up"? Doing business with someone is "propping them up"? I'll remember that the next time I visit some kids lemonade stand. If he turns out later to be a criminal, I don't want to be the guy who "propped him up".
It should be mentioned that every industrialized country, since the dawn of time, has "propped up" other governments. Britain, France, Belgium, The Netherlands, etc. have a much worse record than America has, and that ain't going to change in this century. Hell, the worst day this planet ever had was when God decided to give some of his people funny accents and call them British. The UK has more foreign policy disasters to answer for then the US ever will.
You guys just look for any excuse to cry about America, and this thread is living proof. Whether we're doing anything or not, here comes the peanut gallery to piss and moan about it. Hell, I've been walking around doing an ongoing standing ovation that there's finally a war where we aren't bossing everyone else around. But no, it's still not good enough for you people.
What do you mean by "prop up"? Doing business with someone is "propping them up"? I'll remember that the next time I visit some kids lemonade stand. If he turns out later to be a criminal, I don't want to be the guy who "propped him up".
It should be mentioned that every industrialized country, since the dawn of time, has "propped up" other governments. Britain, France, Belgium, The Netherlands, etc. have a much worse record than America has, and that ain't going to change in this century. Hell, the worst day this planet ever had was when God decided to give some of his people funny accents and call them British. The UK has more foreign policy disasters to answer for then the US ever will.
You guys just look for any excuse to cry about America, and this thread is living proof. Whether we're doing anything or not, here comes the peanut gallery to piss and moan about it. Hell, I've been walking around doing an ongoing standing ovation that there's finally a war where we aren't bossing everyone else around. But no, it's still not good enough for you people.
You do plenty to prop up ruthless dictators, Middle Eastern or otherwise.
Remember the Shah of Iran?
A ruthless man from a family that ruled Iran ruthlessly since medievil times. America rescued him. America gave him F14 and F5 fighters STILL IN USE BY IRAN today. They now comprise a potential threat to America.
That's just one example of America shooting herself in the foot in this manner.
@Vodka: Well, you can see clearly in this thread that I was completely against Germany + the USA joining this battlefield.
But now I REALLY changed my mind as you may see too, because the *Godfather of Libya himself* want´s too shoot on civil objects .
This is from my POV a total NO-GO ! I wish, our govnmt. still could change mind and attack this sweetheart with everything they have, ..and that´s not too less. I hope, Gaddafi would fall into the hands of the legion etrangere`, ..they dont ask too much .
Änd sure I will pay some respect to Timon, but I otherwise think that Gaddafi isn´t paying NO RESPECT to ANY civil life, so hopefully he will get this cruise-missile into his back with a one way *never-come-back-ticket* upon it.
There is NO ROOM for self-employed dictators, terrorist´s and killers on this planet anymore !
@Vodka: Well, you can see clearly in this thread that I was completely against Germany + the USA joining this battlefield.
But now I REALLY changed my mind as you may see too, because the *Godfather of Libya himself* want´s too shoot on civil objects .
This is from my POV a total NO-GO ! I wish, our govnmt. still could change mind and attack this sweetheart with everything they have, ..and that´s not too less. I hope, Gaddafi would fall into the hands of the legion etrangere`, ..they dont ask too much .
Änd sure I will pay some respect to Timon, but I otherwise think that Gaddafi isn´t paying NO RESPECT to ANY civil life, so hopefully he will get this cruise-missile into his back with a one way *never-come-back-ticket* upon it.
There is NO ROOM for self-employed dictators, terrorist´s and killers on this planet anymore !
@Vodka: Well, you can see clearly in this thread that I was completely against Germany + the USA joining this battlefield.
But now I REALLY changed my mind as you may see too, because the *Godfather of Libya himself* want´s too shoot on civil objects .
This is from my POV a total NO-GO ! I wish, our govnmt. still could change mind and attack this sweetheart with everything they have, ..and that´s not too less. I hope, Gaddafi would fall into the hands of the legion etrangere`, ..they dont ask too much .
Änd sure I will pay some respect to Timon, but I otherwise think that Gaddafi isn´t paying NO RESPECT to ANY civil life, so hopefully he will get this cruise-missile into his back with a one way *never-come-back-ticket* upon it.
There is NO ROOM for self-employed dictators, terrorist´s and killers on this planet anymore !
Egypt is in a tough postion, if they support this campaign the many Egyptians living and working in Libya could face reprisal attacks from paramilitaries loyal to Gaddafi. Killing Gaddafi would be a mistake, the UN resolution only covers a no fly zone so a targeted assassination cannot bu justified by this unless Gaddafi happened to be flying a plane, we would lose credibilty worldwide and Arab leaders are already upset at the current level of bombing that they believe goes beyond setting up a no fly zone. We need to keep this as legal and specific as possible otherwise we are no better than them.
Most of the F-5s and F-14s are crates and pose no threat to anyone. The only threat Iran poses is it's nuclear program, ballistic missiles, and of course it's usual export of terrorism.
When the time comes that entire fascist infrastructure will be blown away and every crusty mullah with it.
