The Sagacious Patriots of New England vs. the Mighty Colts of Indianapolis

[Hot Mega]

I don't care that much, but trust me, I remember. I shouted many obscenities at my television during those years. If it wasn't the defense playing like shit, it was our drunken, idiot kicker hooking every clutch kick possible. Fucker missed all of his goddamn kicks during the playoffs. What a douche.

Well, all I remember is Dungy bringing the 'Tampa 2' defense with him...some consider the most effective since the 'Bear 46', Freeney, Sanders and June dominating offenses to close out games.:dunno:

 

[Ace Bandage]

Well, all I remember is Dungy bringing the 'Tampa 2' defense with him...some consider the most effective since the 'Bear 46', Freeney, Sanders and June dominating offenses.:dunno:

1998-2001 were the Jim Mora years. The defense was 20th or worse ever year. These are the stats from Dungy's tenure until last year.

Total Defense
2002 - 8th
2003 - 11th
2004 - 29th
2005 - 11th
2006 - 21st
2007 - 3rd
2008 - 11th
2009 - 18th

Points Allowed
2002 - 7th
2003 - 20th
2004 - 19th
2005 - 2nd
2006 - 23rd
2007 - 1st
2008 - 7th
2009 - 8th

Here's the amazing part: in 2006 Indianapolis had the 21st ranked total defense and 23rd ranked scoring defense and won the Super Bowl. That may never happen again.

In 2003 and 2004, during their title runs, New England had the 7th and 9th ranked total defense and 1st and 2nd ranked scoring defense. In 2007, when they lost to the Giants in the SB, they had the 4th ranked total defense and 4th ranked scoring defense.

 

[Ike Stain]

1998-2001 were the Jim Mora years. The defense was 20th or worse ever year. These are the stats from Dungy's tenure until last year.

Total Defense
2002 - 8th
2003 - 11th
2004 - 29th
2005 - 11th
2006 - 21st
2007 - 3rd
2008 - 11th
2009 - 18th

Points Allowed
2002 - 7th
2003 - 20th
2004 - 19th
2005 - 2nd
2006 - 23rd
2007 - 1st
2008 - 7th
2009 - 8th

Here's the amazing part: in 2006 Indianapolis had the 21st ranked total defense and 23rd ranked scoring defense and won the Super Bowl. That may never happen again.

In 2003 and 2004, during their title runs, New England had the 7th and 9th ranked total defense and 1st and 2nd ranked scoring defense. In 2007, when they lost to the Giants in the SB, they had the 4th ranked total defense and 4th ranked scoring defense.

So I guess at the end of the day, stats ain't shit and you gotta go back to the rings!

 

[young_guns]

colts, i hate the pats

 

[Ike Stain]

colts, i hate the pats

:ban2:

 

[STDiva]

So I guess at the end of the day, stats ain't shit and you gotta go back to the rings!

?? You know he was proving how dismal the Colts defense has been over the years right? And how incredible New England's defense has been? Put Peyton on those Patriot teams and they win at least 6 Super Bowls, and Vinitieri never kicks a winning FG ever. Branch and whatever other receivers on those teams would be hall of famers.

Teams win Super Bowls. Great players win MVP's. Peyton has more than anybody ever. He's also 3rd all time in every major QB statistic. He got there faster than any other QB. He WILL break almost every major record in the books. But because the Patriots...as a team...won more Super Bowls, Brady is a better QB? That's hilarious.

 

[roronoa3000]

colts, i hate the pats

:glugglug:

 

[YumiYumi_1988]

IMO Manning is better than Brady. But I think we are kidding ourselves if we think 1 is far and away much better than the other. Manning IMO has better stats, but he also has a few years on Brady. Manning has the advantage of playing in doors, but Brady has the advantage of having had a much better defense, thus more possessions to rack up stats.

One thing to keep in mind: The Colts were terrible before Manning got there. The Patriots were always a competitive team before Brady ever got there.

As for the game, not really of much importance to me. I want to see them both fall flat on their faces. But especially New England, I still hate them from that Tuck Rule bullshit. I'm picking the Patriots though, I'm not sold on the Colts this year.

 

[mr. jizz]

Great players win MVP's

So in that case, the GREATEST players should win Super Bowl MVPs, it is, after all the most important game of the year. Not to sound like a cliche but it is where we seperate the men from the boys. If your QB can't perform to reach the Superbowl and triumph in the SB, what the hell is he playing for then?

Brady's 2 Super Bowl MVPs > Mannings 1 Superbowl MVP

Also, Manning's defense wasn't "dismal", if you spend so little time putting together drives like the Colts offense does with the no huddles and long passes, the defense is gonna be out there more, they tire out and get weaker and when the Colts get ahead, like they always do, the defense is allowed to be more loose. Brady throws short, accurate passes and takes more time off the clock and lets the defense rest. I'd say talentwise, their defenses are about even. C'mon you can't say a defense is dismal when you got Dwight Freeney on there. I guarantee you statistically their defense only LOOKED bad because they were up 35-0 in the 3rd and they put less pressure on the opposing offense cause they knew they weren't gonna catch up. If the Colts had a "dismal" defense, they sure as hell wouldn't be 14-2, 13-3 every single year. Brady or Manning can't win 14 games by them and their offenses alone.

 

[Hot Mega]

1998-2001 were the Jim Mora years. The defense was 20th or worse ever year. These are the stats from Dungy's tenure until last year.

Total Defense
2002 - 8th
2003 - 11th
2004 - 29th
2005 - 11th
2006 - 21st
2007 - 3rd
2008 - 11th
2009 - 18th

Points Allowed
2002 - 7th
2003 - 20th
2004 - 19th
2005 - 2nd
2006 - 23rd
2007 - 1st
2008 - 7th
2009 - 8th

Here's the amazing part: in 2006 Indianapolis had the 21st ranked total defense and 23rd ranked scoring defense and won the Super Bowl. That may never happen again.

In 2003 and 2004, during their title runs, New England had the 7th and 9th ranked total defense and 1st and 2nd ranked scoring defense. In 2007, when they lost to the Giants in the SB, they had the 4th ranked total defense and 4th ranked scoring defense.

Do you have a link to the source of these stats?

But to the point about the Colts needing to outscore opponents as you claimed...out of 8 years they ranked 1st, 2nd, 7th, 7th and 8th in scoring defense. That's damned good wouldn't you say??

Taking your word for it NE had the 7th and 9th ranked Total D in their title years. The Colts had a 3rd and 8th ranked total D in the decade.:dunno:

But it would be worthwhile to see the overall stats for both teams. Can you attach the link.

?? You know he was proving how dismal the Colts defense has been over the years right? And how incredible New England's defense has been? Put Peyton on those Patriot teams and they win at least 6 Super Bowls, and Vinitieri never kicks a winning FG ever. Branch and whatever other receivers on those teams would be hall of famers.

Teams win Super Bowls. Great players win MVP's. Peyton has more than anybody ever. He's also 3rd all time in every major QB statistic. He got there faster than any other QB. He WILL break almost every major record in the books. But because the Patriots...as a team...won more Super Bowls, Brady is a better QB? That's hilarious.

STD ...I'm not sure how you read this...but my point was the Colts had very good defenses during the Dungy era and Manning wasn't simply relegated to outscoring opponents in order to win..the stats A/R provided sorta bear that out. Ranked 1st, 2nd, 7th, 7th and 8th in scoring defense out of 8 years doesn't suggest remotely their offense needed to consistently outscore opponents in order to win.

 

[Ike Stain]

?? You know he was proving how dismal the Colts defense has been over the years right? And how incredible New England's defense has been? Put Peyton on those Patriot teams and they win at least 6 Super Bowls, and Vinitieri never kicks a winning FG ever. Branch and whatever other receivers on those teams would be hall of famers.

Teams win Super Bowls. Great players win MVP's. Peyton has more than anybody ever. He's also 3rd all time in every major QB statistic. He got there faster than any other QB. He WILL break almost every major record in the books. But because the Patriots...as a team...won more Super Bowls, Brady is a better QB? That's hilarious.

Actually, I was saying exactly what you are saying. Namely that Manning is the better QB, but that Pats and Belichick are better team/coach.

This line of discourse was in response to Hot Mega's line of reasoning that in fact Dungy and the Colts are the better coach/team and in fact it is Manning that has cost them championships, where Brady was the better QB and carrying the Pats.

 

[Ike Stain]

And I just gotta say, whichever camp you fall into, aren't you glad to be affiliated with a team where we get to sit her talking Manning/Brady, as opposed to, I don't know, say, Brett Fav-ree?

 

[CptHa]

And I just gotta say, whichever camp you fall into, aren't you glad to be affiliated with a team where we get to sit her talking Manning/Brady, as opposed to, I don't know, say, Brett Fav-ree?

No. Favre was forged by the Football Gods themselves. How else do you explain him taking beatings that would keep anyone else out of the next week's lineup?

 

[mr. jizz]

No. Favre was forged by the Football Gods themselves. How else do you explain him taking beatings that would keep anyone else out of the next week's lineup?

The fact that he's a drama queen and blows everything out of proportion? Seriously, every football player has lingering injuries but you don't see them calling press conferences and advertising those injuries like Favre. You think Manning leaves every game unscathed? You think Brady isn't in a huge amount of pain when he gets sacked by a 350 lbs lineman? Hell no, no football player (even high school, I always had a shoulder and ankle that bothered me) plays at 100% they just don't moan and bitch about it like media-whore Favre does.

 

[Hot Mega]

No. Favre was forged by the Football Gods themselves. How else do you explain him taking beatings that would keep anyone else out of the next week's lineup?

Oxycontin, vicodine and Jack?

 

[Neutron66]

This was Brett Favre two weeks ago being carted off the field in the fetal position.

An hour later during the post-game press conference he was bragging about how tough he is.

 

[mr. jizz]

Oxycontin, vicodine and Jack?

Also adrenaline, When you're pumped up and your heart is racing, you feel un-fuckin-stoppable. I remember during a game I landed pretty akwardly on my elbow and I didn't feel shit during the game, then going back to the bus, I felt the pain shoot up my arm. The next week, I was still in pain before the game but during, I felt nothing...crazy shit.

 

[Ace Bandage]

STD ...I'm not sure how you read this...but my point was the Colts had very good defenses during the Dungy era and Manning wasn't simply relegated to outscoring opponents in order to win..the stats A/R provided sorta bear that out. Ranked 1st, 2nd, 7th, 7th and 8th in scoring defense out of 8 years doesn't suggest remotely their offense needed to consistently outscore opponents in order to win.

I thought you always had to outscore the opponents to win the game. :dunno: My point was that Peyton has only had top 10 defenses (total defense) twice during his time in Indy. Brady had top 10 defenses during all three of his title runs and the SB loss to the Giants.

Sortable team stats here

 

[Hot Mega]

I thought you always had to outscore the opponents to win the game. :dunno: My point was that Peyton has only had top 10 defenses (total defense) twice during his time in Indy. Brady had top 10 defenses during all three of his title runs and the SB loss to the Giants.

Sortable team stats here

First, thanks for doing the groundwork in finding a source.

Secondly, one of the more memorable and painful losses I can recall experiencing as a UM faithful was the 2008 UM/Toledo game in which Toledo won 13-10...Michigan's offense score 10 points, Toledo's offense scored 6 but they also had a 101 yard int. returned for a TD.

Of course a team who expects to win needs more total points than their opponent. The point of contention here wasn't simply that..it was your suggestion that the Colts' defense was so pitiful (under Dungy no less) that they were keeping a prolific offense led by Manning from winning SBs.

Total Defense can be anecdotally misleading...meaning the stats may not represent the accurate truth or trend. Example; an offense could run/pass the ball all over the field all day long but not score. The point of the game is not who gave up the most yards but who scores the most points.

Ergo it's a little more reliable looking at PF/PA stats...in that sense characterizing the Colts' defense as "awful" during Manning's Dungy years is laughable when they've had Defenses in the top 10 5 out of 8 season (twice in the top 2) in PA. :dunno:

We've pounding the shit out of this horse though...they are 2 great QBs..Manning is much better now than he was IMO.

Manning's tendency to crack under pressure early in his career in big games is why he doesn't have more rings...maybe even a couple of College national championships too IMO. Trust me, I remember. Every year I'd wait for Tennessee to put a nail in Spurrier's coffin and they simply couldn't because Manning would fold. None worse than the '95 year when they were winning 37 to some score in the teens for UF...but ended up losing 60 something to 37.

 

[Ace Bandage]

Just because I love

:horse:

Today's feature story on the ESPN NFL home page is a comparison between Tom Terrific and Peyton fuckin' Manning. The headline reads:

Ultimate Brady vs. Manning comparison
Difference is minimal, but the Colts' QB is best, according to our five-person panel

Peyton was voted superior in 11 of 15 categories. It's actually a pretty good read even if you're a Brady fan. They point out his head-to-head record against Peyton and highlight the fact that he has more rings. But in the end, Peyton is deemed to be the better QB.

Link