Russia says new ICBM can beat any system

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Russia has also said that their newest generation fighters will defeat anything in the skies.

Of course, they have no fuel... or trained pilots... and they only have the two prototypes of the actual aircraft, but hey... yeah... very bad ass!

H
 
Well, I have to ask. Is this a threat to others or a warning because they feel vulnerable?
 

dick van cock

Closed Account
To me, this smells of pouting. The Kremlin appears to be irritated by the installation of US anti-rocket systems in the USSR's former satellites.

They are just trying to say: Build it, it is of no use anyway. We're not bothered - while in fact, they are pissed.

Russia will get over it. Remember that their reactions to the Baltic nations joining NATO were quite unfriendly at first, before they came to terms with reality. The same thing will happen here. Nobody will talk about this in a few years anymore.
 
Well, I have to ask. Is this a threat to others or a warning because they feel vulnerable?


AFA, Ya Hit The Nail Right On The Head!! But The Real Question Is Which???? I Feel It's More Of A Threat In My Thinking. For There Siding With Iran & Chavez, It Sure Makes Ya Wonder & Think!! What More Do We Need???????
 
Doesn't matter ...

I didn't think our system was that good at stopping missiles anyhow at this point in time.
Spoken well by someone who obviously listens the media.
If you believe that, then NASA never docked in space, and computers can't do Teraflop calculations.

"Missile defense" wasn't "born overnight."
It's merely the evolution of two, core, defense (or offense) concepts: "air defense" and command'n control.

No TMD/NMD system will ever be able to address a massive volley of rockets.
It's purely cost prohibitive.

Russia has also said that their newest generation fighters will defeat anything in the skies.
Of course, they have no fuel... or trained pilots... and they only have the two prototypes of the actual aircraft, but hey... yeah... very bad ass!
Actually, the Russians have made some excellent designs in both aircraft and launch systems more recently.
But they do over-state their capability -- just as any good marketing department would -- as they will sell to anyone for a price.

Well, I have to ask. Is this a threat to others or a warning because they feel vulnerable?
It's just more, continued rhetoric.
You have people questioning the US instead of Russia, when it should be the opposite.

Every American aerospace engineer is just scratching their head saying, "WTF? Our TMD/NMD systems can't stop a serious volley from Russia, and never will."

It's more about Russia possibly selling the missiles to other countries, not so much about their deploying them "in parity" against any missile shield.

To me, this smells of pouting. The Kremlin appears to be irritated by the installation of US anti-rocket systems in the USSR's former satellites.
It's really more about the tracking and sensor systems, not so much the interceptors.
We, the US, spy on the world more than anyone -- 10x over -- and we control every aspect of information that you could want on a battlefield.
Even during the height of the cold war, we did it 3x more than the USSR.

Of course, our "removing the fog of war" capability has served peace at times as well.
Israel and Arab nations were brought to the peace table in the early '70s when American satellite and air-based intel showed everyone exactly what was going on.
Over the last 15 years the UN Security Council has relied heavily on US space and air-based intel, when it comes to many aspects.

Unfortunately, it doesn't replace everything -- such as ground-based intel (of which we, the US, were severely lacking in capability from 1993-2001).

They are just trying to say: Build it, it is of no use anyway. We're not bothered - while in fact, they are pissed.
Which has nothing to do with their "new missile," but the fact that our TMD/NMD doesn't protect against massive barrages.
It only protects allied countries and military units against point, tactical launches or a few, strategic missiles.

Russia will get over it. Remember that their reactions to the Baltic nations joining NATO were quite unfriendly at first, before they came to terms with reality. The same thing will happen here. Nobody will talk about this in a few years anymore.
Exactomundo, it's rhetoric that doesn't even apply.

People say, "I don't want to pay for missile defense."
And I always say, "okay, we might as well just get rid of all air defense and related sensor systems altogether."
They look at me with dumb stares, until I explain the fact that TMD/NMD is what is replacing everything from traditional SAMs to radar installations.

Duh.
 

georges

Moderator
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If you look at the actual planes that fly the russian pilots they are either flying early versions of the su27 flanker or mig 29. The russian air force has a budget that represent tidbits of what was the budget in the USSR era.
USA and UK have a bunch of trident IID5 missile so I wouldn't worry much
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_II
Aside from the Topol M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topol_M, Russia has develeopped a submarine launched missile version of the Topol M, the Bulava aka ss-nx-30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-NX-30 which is lighter and said to be more accurate.
I don't think that Russia has a real knowledge of how to make stealth missiles or planes.
The su 37 is indeed a great plane but it can't beat a f15 with an aesa apg63v3 radar and thurts vectoring engines. I am not talking about the f22 which owns every russian sukhoi. Even the mig 29 which was said to be better than the f16 was killed in significant numbers in the first gulf war and in kosovo due to piss poor and outdated avionics.
Most of sukhoi 27s that were sold recently were sold to many countries that were customers of sukhoi during the USSR period. I am not astonished of this. Putin wants to recreate the cold war era.
 
MAD is still the deterrent ...

If you look at the actual planes that fly the russian pilots they are either flying early versions of the su27 flanker or mig 29. The russian air force has a budget that represent tidbits of what was the budget in the USSR era.
Yes, but they are decent quality export planes.
At least a heck of a lot better than the F-5 or F-20 we typically offer "third world nations," although the F-15 and F-16 do still get orders from our allies (as will the F-35 shortly).
USA and UK have a bunch of trident IID5 missile so I wouldn't worry much
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_II
Yes, MAD (mutually assured destruction) is still the deterrent!
Despite the insistence of most Americans (largely because of our media) to ignorantly assume we're still at the "initiative" stage of missile defense, and we're trying to build a full, Russian-defending "shield," TMD/NMD is about defending "one-off" attacks.

I mean, how would you like to be Israel or Jordan and the Iranians nuke the US, so we have to respond in kind?
Or North Korea decides to nuke the US, how would you feel as a South Korean citizen to see the US drop a hydrogen bomb in response?

Or what about if Iran or North Korea made an attack on our allies for that matter?

It would be much, much better if the US had a system that would and count intercept that strategic device and ensure no nukes actually airburst.
Most third world countries hate the idea because it means they have no deterrence against the US.

But the Russians? They have nothing to fear but MAD, just like us.

Aside from the Topol M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topol_M, Russia has develeopped a submarine launched missile version of the Topol M, the Bulava aka ss-nx-30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-NX-30 which is lighter and said to be more accurate.
Yes, and that's about it.
It has decoys and other things, but that too isn't really much in the way of today's TMD/NMD sensory systems.

I don't think that Russia has a real knowledge of how to make stealth missiles or planes.
Actually, the fundamentals of Radar Cross Section (RCS) are not very difficult to understand.
It's only classified "Secret" level in the US military, largely because the concepts infiltrate so many aspects of "necessary/common knowledge" in design.
So the Russians very much do understand RCS and "stealth."

But secondly, stealth his UTTERLY USELESS on a supersonic traveling vehicle. ;)
The supersonic shockwaves give the exact position of the vehicle as it's traveling through the atmosphere, even well beyond the stratosphere.
Only in space would there be the limited 5 minutes or so it could be halfway effective, although the sheer speed the object is traveling still gives it off.

There are doppler effect and other considerations in sensory tracking, even without atmosphere.
In fact, as any scientist or engineer can tell you, some of those very basic principles is how we can tell the difference between a real, re-entry vehicle and something like -- say -- a very light'n bright mylar balloon of larger size.

The su 37 is indeed a great plane but it can't beat a f15 with an aesa apg63v3 radar and thurts vectoring engines. I am not talking about the f22 which owns every russian sukhoi. Even the mig 29 which was said to be better than the f16 was killed in significant numbers in the first gulf war and in kosovo due to piss poor and outdated avionics.
As well as tactics.
Indeed, the US "owned" the Russians and Chinese pilots even back in Korea and Vietnam, despite even "inferior" planes for the situations.
Add in the US' current command'n control capability, and it's all over before it even starts.

Most of sukhoi 27s that were sold recently were sold to many countries that were customers of sukhoi during the USSR period. I am not astonished of this. Putin wants to recreate the cold war era.
Russia has gone into an "unrestricted export" mode, which is rather sad.
They know they can "get away with it" because they are no longer the lesser of two evils.

Hell, I know they are over there saying, "Ha! It's great to see the same level of constant scrutiny and rhetoric being flung at the US for once, what we had to deal with for 50 years!"
I mean, yes, the USSR was the "evil empire" but during the Cold War, we were never held up to the level of scrutiny they were -- and they were often blamed for things that they didn't even do, or was not their fault.

Now it's the exact opposite, with people going out of their way to blame the US for anything.
So the Russians can do what they want, kinda like the US during the Cold War (although I would like to think we actually took some care, if not always, of where we sold a lot of our weapons -- even if we didn't bend our own rules regularly).
 

McRocket

Banned
Good points - IMO - by both Georges and Prof Voluptuary.

Two things from me though.

1) I think a missile defense shield is a near complete waste of time. No country like North Korea is ever going to launch an ICBM at America. One thing dictators want more then power is to survive. And Kimmy baby's country would be obliterated if they ever launched an ICBM at America. And they know it.
And terrorists? If they somehow got hold of a nukes they are not going to put them on missiles. What country would be stupid enough to allow them to launch a missile at the US from it's soil?
No. They just stick it on a ship and sail into New York harbour and detonate it. BOOM. Thousands and thousands killed.
There is absolutely no realistic way that America can stop terrorists from blowing up part of an American coastal city if the terrorists have a nuke and have half a brain in their heads.
Missile defense is strictly to make the populace feel better and the military types feel more powerful.
Now it could be used to shoot down conventional missiles like in Iraq War 1 (even though then the kill ratio was nowhere near what was originally quoted).
But as a defense against a rogue state or terrorist organization launching a nuclear tipped IRBM or ICBM? A complete waste of money and does nothing but worry those that won't have this system.
BTW - America had a working anti ICBM missile defense system in operation in the 70's. For exactly one day (I believe). I think it was called the Safeguard system. It had two missiles, Spartan and Sprint (IMO, the most amazing missile ever fielded). And it apparently worked (except that it used nuclear warheads to detonate near the incoming missiles to destroy them - not a real good idea for the people living below the explosions).
But people realized that anti ballistic missile systems do not work. They end up doing more harm to the peace process then helping it.
Even now. All this defense system is doing is pissing off the Russians. For what? To maybe shoot down a one off missile that will probably never be fired? Waste of time and money. Useless.


And my other point was about the MIG 25 which was discussed above. Apparently the radar on this fighter was so powerful that they had to turn it off when they were taxiing on the ground because the radiation from this radar would kill small animals that lived on the side of Soviet runways?
 

Phaeton

Banned
No one is ever going to launch an ICBM, and if by any chance one is launched. Anyone who posts on this board will ever be able to say "I told you so"
So missile tech, both offensive and defensive is moot at this point.
 
No one is ever going to launch an ICBM, and if by any chance one is launched. Anyone who posts on this board will ever be able to say "I told you so"
So missile tech, both offensive and defensive is moot at this point.

No one is going to attack Pearl Harbor, which is located in no where in Hawaii, between Asia and North America.

No one is going to attack New York with two planes loaded with fuel and committed sucide mission.

Unfortunately, no one here understand the geopolitical climate inside Moscow.

Putin's right hand man and also his best friend was the first civilian Defense Minister and he is poised to become the President of Russia when Putin steps down.

Russia has nothing to lose to launch the ICBM but everything to gain when the time is right. When the extreme Muslims fights to the end against the West, it is time for Russia to launch the ICBM and take over Europe. I never under-estimate Russia and Putin's Defense Minister is ready to take over his job soon.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/world-leaders-1/world-leaders-r/russia.html
 

om3ga

It's good to be the king...
Sounds like we're back to the good old sabre-rattling of the Cold war....:D
 
View from Moscow:

I am not so good at rocket science, warfare or missiles, but it's a bit afflicting to realize, that people have started discussing possible ressurection of "the cold war".
Obviously, i have many friends from the US - across the whole country, moreover - my girlfriend is a pure american - and we all deal well.
So, to my mind it's all about politics and has nothing with common citizens
 

maildude

Postal Paranoiac
Just what we need...another global trouble-maker.:dunno:
 
I believe our missile defense systems weren't really that good anyway. I don't think they'll be good enough until the Govt starts installing powerful lasers on planes and satellites to take out ICBMs as they are launching off the pad. It's very tough to catch a missile once it's fully airborne. The best chance you have at destroying a missile is when it's at the launch pad about to take off or shortly after take off.
 
The Russians are upset about our wanting to deploy new ABM systems in poland supposedly to defend against "rougue nations".The truth is that since the people they mean namely Iran are beleived to be nowhere near developing an ICBM with that kind of range that it must be being deployed with Russia in mind.
I personally have always thought that the seeking of ABM or anti ballistic missles or star wars or whatever you want to call it was a very de-stabilizing policy which would lead to another race to develope ICBMs capable of defeating these systems.Not to mention that if we got to a point that we felt impervious to attack some in the military complex would feel that now our nukes were more usable since we could avoid retaliation.
The policy of mad (mutual assured destruction) which kept the US and USSR from having a nuclear exchange is undermined obviously by all these defensive systems which I think can probably be defeated at a cheaper cost than it took to build them,but hey the Military-Industrial complex has to do something with all that American Tax money lol.
 
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