The 2008 Mariners boasted an infield of Miguel Cairo (OPS of .646), Yuniesy Bettencourt (OPS of .691), Jose Lopez (OPS of .764), and Adrian Beltre (OPS of .784). Their starting outfield outside of Ichiro had an OPS of .610. Their DH for the year, Jose Vidro, had an OPS of .612. Plain and simple, their offense was the definition of horrid. One person on the entire team had an OPS over .800 (the league average for the year was .745). The 2009 version had an infield of two returners and two huge offensive upgrades, and the outfield had a similar upgrade. The team went from an average OPS of .670 to .740 not because of anything Griffey did in the clubhouse, to put it bluntly, they got better because they got rid of the players that sucked.
MLB 2010 Thread
- Thread starter shayd
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The 2008 Mariners boasted an infield of Miguel Cairo (OPS of .646), Yuniesy Bettencourt (OPS of .691), Jose Lopez (OPS of .764), and Adrian Beltre (OPS of .784). Their starting outfield outside of Ichiro had an OPS of .610. Their DH for the year, Jose Vidro, had an OPS of .612. Plain and simple, their offense was the definition of horrid. One person on the entire team had an OPS over .800 (the league average for the year was .745). The 2009 version had an infield of two returners and two huge offensive upgrades, and the outfield had a similar upgrade. The team went from an average OPS of .670 to .740 not because of anything Griffey did in the clubhouse, to put it bluntly, they got better because they got rid of the players that sucked.
The Twins are consitently leaving a ton of RISP. They have to be one of the better teams in the league with such high leaving RISP. And yet, they still have a decent lead in the AL Central. 
I know. :thumbsup: Just the way we like it. I'm just worried we get the Yanks again this post season because they have had our post-season number for the last decade.
Hello shayd and thanks for your answer.
I'll take your good word for it on the studies, but as far as the statistics go they're immaterial to my case in point. Yes that team had excellent pitching (and a weak offense), but the point is it was a faltering team in jeopardy of missing the playoffs until the Guerrero for Tudor trade. It was from that point on they started their highly improbable run to world series champions - primarily because the team's chemistry was altered for the better. The Guerrero/Gibson schism (which erupted into a locker room showdown around the beginning of August) disappeared, with Gibson emerging as the team's undisputed leader.
The Twins are consitently leaving a ton of RISP. They have to be one of the better teams in the league with such high leaving RISP. And yet, they still have a decent lead in the AL Central.
then why are the tigers sucking harder than the twins? The tigers batting average with RISP is 28th in the league at .241....the twins are at .278, good for 4th in baseball....and the reason why the number of runners left on for the twins is so high is because they get alot of runners on base with a team OBP of .347
all in all i have alot more faith in the twins over the tigers
personally i'm just glad to see my rays hanging on to the top of the AL East....especially now that pena is coming around
Okay...good points. But again tonight they left bases loaded in the 8th with one out and the pussy ass Braves layed a squeeze play to win by one.
Okay...good points. But again tonight they left bases loaded in the 8th with one out and the pussy ass Braves layed a squeeze play to win by one.
ok thats one incident
and i sense the bitterness but 2 points
1 - the braves are in first place in the NL east and, in my opinion, playing the best baseball around this side of the yankees
2 - the squeeze play takes some balls and skill to execute successfully....i've seen it work wonders in Tampa Bay....and they have the best record in baseball
You're right: I'm bitter, the Braves are hot and the squeeze play worked.
Liriano threw for 8 innings the night before with 11K and Rauch closed by wiffing the side. :1orglaugh The 1-run games are the ones that you have to pull out, however. Twins are in great shape. :hatsoff:
Also, part of the flaw in thinking a person with good clubhouse presence will make the skill of players suddenly get better is that whenever it doesn't work nobody notices it. People are quick to point out when it seems to happen even when it's just coincidence or do to other factors coming into play, yet all those times where a person with supposed good clubhouse presence comes in and nothing happens or the team even regresses it’s quickly forgotten about.
Even in your above example, if I was to give you the benefit of the doubt that what you're saying is true for hypothetical reasons, has more to do with getting rid of a clubhouse cancer than the effects of somebody being brought in.
I'll even concede that in very VERY extraordinary and extreme circumstances (like Terrell Owens when he was with the Philadelphia Eagles) that somebody could be such an incredible locker room cancer, malcontent, and such a disruption that they can cause a team to fall apart or become highly distracted. I can just never see somebody with a good presence making people or the team any better than at best in the most marginal of ways. One can't just magically impart skill to somebody that doesn’t have it and isn’t capable of learning it.
Ace Bandage
The one and only.
Damn it! I was hoping that I would see Theodore Roosevelt Lilly III throw a no-no tonight. I guess I'll just settle for taking a win instead. Somebody needs to tell Marmol that he doesn't need to make every fucking game exciting at the end. A balk, really?
The best part about this game being over is that I don't have to listen to Joe Morgan anymore. That guy is just intolerable.
I was hoping that I would see Theodore Roosevelt Lilly III throw a no-no tonight. I guess I'll just settle for taking a win instead. Somebody needs to tell Marmol that he doesn't need to make every fucking game exciting at the end. A balk, really? The best part about this game being over is that I don't have to listen to Joe Morgan anymore. That guy is just intolerable.
Damn it!
The best part about this game being over is that I don't have to listen to Joe Morgan anymore. That guy is just intolerable.
Joe Morgan is an airhead. Too bad the Cubbies can't go back to the early Kerry Wood years before he tore his arm to bits. He was a *****. I actually watched the game at Wrigley when he threw the 20K game in '98. EVERYONE wanted his RC after that! You couldn't find one. He was sure to be the next Ryan. Shame...
Look, I understand that anecdotally that is seems like chemistry has an effect, but it's not substantiated by anything other than, "well I saw it so it must have happened". In fact, in the case of those Dodgers, they actually played better before that trade (team OBP of close to .310) than after (team OBP of .285). If anything, the Dodgers played worse than before the trade. The key is that their opponents the last 3 months of the season had a collective winning percentage of less than .425. Plain and simple, they played bad teams.
In addition, it points to the importance of looking at the bigger picture. People are entirely too eager to take a small sample size of a season and say a marked improvement has occurred, and putting faith in these made up "hot-streaks" than to look at the bigger picture and realize that more often than not, players and teams are playing to their averages over a long season.
Joe Morgan, John Kruk, John Hart, Keith Law, and Steve Phillips need to be ****** from ever talking about baseball again.
That's a valid point, but it's still a matter of chemistry, be it negative or positive.
You base that critique solely on their On Base Percentage?
I'm not talking about the last 3 months, I'm talking about their last 44 regular season games (sans Guerrero) plus the post season vs the Mets and A's.
Following the trade they went 11 and 4 in August and 16 and 11 in September for a combined win % of .642
Prior to the trade their winning % was .544 and they'd gone 6 and 8 in August against three of same teams (CIN, HOU, SF) they'd see several more times after the trade.
Of their last 44 regular season games 27 came against teams with winning records while 6 were against an 81-81 Expos team, leaving just 11 games vs teams with losing records.
Anyway, I don't mean to overly belabor this discussion - feel free to have the last word.
I just believe more in team chemistry than some other fans.
It's a pretty good reflection of their play, but if it suits your fancy any better, the team had an OPS+ of 112 before the trade, and 96 after, (100 being league average). That speaks to their offense. Their pitching staff had an ERA+ of 127 before the trade, and 114 after (100 again being league average). The point is, they played worse after the trade (statistically).
I know exactly what you're referring to, but the teams the Dodgers played later in the year were terrible in the second half of the season, save for the Giants who were almost .500 on the dot.
Eh, feel free to, but know that chemistry as it's portrayed has no relevance to performance. For every 1988 Dodgers, there are hundreds of Milton Bradleys (the 2006 A's wouldn't have even made the playoffs without him), or Griffeys (his presences certainly didn't help them this or last year).
gad!
Joe Torre .......(shakes head)
If he wanted to make the Yankees regret not hanging on to him he sure did a **** poor job of it last night.
The guy has been the manager of the Dodgers for 3 seasons and still hasn't figured out when and how to utilize Broxton.
With a four run lead in the 9th who does Torre call on to finish the game? Broxton, the guy who most needs a day off. The same Broxton who pitched an inning and a third the previous night in a yet another non-save situation.
The same Broxton who'd been hard used during the Dodgers 9 game road trip.
The same Broxton who won't be available now if they need him tonight vs the Giants.
This has become a chronic, recurring pattern for Joe.
The question is how many times does lightning have to strike for him to get a clue?
Joe Torre .......(shakes head)
If he wanted to make the Yankees regret not hanging on to him he sure did a **** poor job of it last night.
The guy has been the manager of the Dodgers for 3 seasons and still hasn't figured out when and how to utilize Broxton.
With a four run lead in the 9th who does Torre call on to finish the game? Broxton, the guy who most needs a day off. The same Broxton who pitched an inning and a third the previous night in a yet another non-save situation.
The same Broxton who'd been hard used during the Dodgers 9 game road trip.
The same Broxton who won't be available now if they need him tonight vs the Giants.
This has become a chronic, recurring pattern for Joe.
The question is how many times does lightning have to strike for him to get a clue?
That's not a problem exclusive to his LA tenure. He's been absolutely horrid with bullpen management his entire managerial career.
On a slightly related note, Bob Geren needs to be fired, like ASAP.
