Ranger:
You wrote:
"Here is a web site about your heros. You ought to be proud of them. Keep in mind that he thinks that you are stupid."
No, I'm sure Moore would find someone as thoughtful as Brino a breath of fresh air. I know I do. He's one of the "80 million or so" that Moore speaks of.
And the quotes don't need to be disputed in my mind. You're right, Moore said them. And he's right. Next?...
Doleman: I agree wholeheartedly that the presidency is a much more difficult job TO DO WELL than the average person acknowledges. But a good job os what we should certainly expect, shouldn't we?
Now let's see, by what measure do we determine a job well done? Security? Worst attack in the history of the country? On Bush's watch. Biggest deficit ever? On Bush's watch, after inheriting the largest surplus ever. Largest tax break for people making more than $200K per year? On Bush's watch. Worst standing in the world community in our history, largest number of international treaties dissolved and a withdrawal from the world court? On Bush's watch. Only time we've ever invaded another country pre-emptively? On Bush's watch. Only time in the recorded history of western civilization that a country cut taxes while at war? On Bush's watch. Largest corporate failures ever (Enron, Arthur Anderson, Worldnet, etc)? On Bush's watch. Highest number of personal bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period? On Bush's watch.
He and his administration have never hit a single economic projection -- his previous budgets projected a surplus by 2004. We just had the single largest deficit in any single year. As with the job numbers, they're constantly going back and changing growth figures downward months after their initial inflated announcements, which still don't hit their original targets.
Improving unemployment figures are complete bullshit. If your unemployment runs out, and you still don't have a job, you just are no longer included in the figures. You aren't employed, but you don't get counted!
He's the first president to enter the office with a criminal record.
Apporinted more convicted criminals to public office than any other president. Set the record for most campaign trips by a sitting president. And Mr. Small Government Conservative built the largest bureaucracy in the history of the country. (The potential money pit that is Homeland Security.)
Yet still we can't seem to catch Osama Bin Laden, nor the folks behind the Anthrax scare. And along the way he did everything in his power to prevent the 911 Commission -- toothless as it was -- from ever investigating the greatest security failure in the history of our country.
Boy, I'd hate to think that we'd lose all this goodness if Kerry got elected. What's left? Maybe the moon would fall out of it's orbit and crash into the earth?
Re: Your comments about divided nation in war/what can you do?
With the exception of the Japanese Americans who were thrown into camps, the vast majority of America supported WWII. Reason: Justifiable action. Americans started getting a little more questioning when it's government started invading countries for less tangible reasons (see Korea, Vietnam, Panama, and a host of other official "police actions" and CIA operations.)
Past deadly debacles have taught us well. The majority of polled Americans -- who are one heck of a lot more likely to be war cheerleaders in the first place than the silent, underclass majority who don't show up on the right lists to get called but who end up catching bullets in the field -- either want no part of this war, or feel it is at the very least making us LESS safe in the long run and that they were mislead by the current administration.
http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm (One of my favorite bookmarks. Any time you see a pundit or newscaster use a poll figure, jump right there and catch them in their spin. Tangent: Here's the page for the presidential race:
http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04gen.htm Notice that the most recent polls have been taken during the Repub convention and they are now arguably garnering the biggest bounce they'll get. Across all preferences, after weeks of Kerry leading substantially, Bush scores higher in 16, Kerry in 15, with 4 ties. Most interesting to me is that when asked if George Bush deserves a second term, REGARDLESS of who is running against him, Americans say "no" more often then "yes".)
Re: What can you do?
Try not invading countries with justification that turns out to be all lies. Oh, and the newest one... Remember that guy Bin Laden? Turns out Osama Bin Laden might just not have had the wherewithall to be behind 911. So I guess we invaded Afghanastan for no reason, too.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/09/02/binladen.wealth.ap/index.html (And the guy was supposedly on dialysis when we started blowing up a mountain range to get to him. Unless we were complete fuckups and let him get to an area developed enough to provide such treatment, he's dead now. If you're a conspiracy/coincidence theorist, you think we have him right now. Thank goodness we got Saddam -- who we created and financed and encouraged to use chemical weapons against the Iranians. And keep in mind our military didn't find him, either. He was handed over by "an un-named group". Contractors?)
RE: ""no conservative media".
Your comment is perhaps not as well informed as it could be. See
http://www.whatliberalmedia.com/ ,
http://mediamatters.org/, or about 100 other links at
http://www.free-porn-vid.com/extreme_democracy/index.html The "liberal" media is a myth. There's also a thread here that I think Parker started a about "conservative-vs-liberal" media. Bottom line, AM radio is dominated by Republicans. Limbaugh, Hannity, OReilly, Savage, Liddy, et al. General Electric, one of the largest defense manufacturers owns NBC. The ten largest media conglomerates dominate the total message, and their message is anything but liberal.
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020107&s=miller
Re: Gay Marriage And The Constitution.
Please show us where in the constitution it says that we can't let gay folks marry? Bush's role in trying to amend the constitution to EXCLUDE a group is a first in our history. But I will agree with you that the hole thing could be settled by simply giving the union another name with the same rights as marriage. And I'm sorry, but I just LOVE the fact that one of Cheney's kids is gay. Notice she wasn't on the stage when Cheney did the whole "family" display after his speech at the RNC?
RE: They Keep Secrets/Get Over It.
Dude, I for one will NEVER "get over" a government keeping secrets from it's people. It's the main reason why the founding fathers came up with the First Amendment. So that the press could DO IT'S DUTY AND GET THE TRUTH. Allowing any administration to keep secrets from you is the first step to totalitarianism. Of course, George II wouldn't mind that, so long as, in his words, he's the dictator.
I'm just glad that Zell Miller self destructed in an interview with MSNBC's Chris Matthews after his downright bizarre speech. Anybody else see that?
And lastly, since this is a Michael Moore thread and all, at least the guy had the guts to stand his ground against an entire auditorium filled with angry, aggressive opponents at the RNC. Seriously, have any of us had several thousand people make the same kind of noise you hear in the tape of McCain's speech and not fled for cover? And what the guy had to go through to get in the door -- when he had totally legitimate press credentials -- is downright frightening.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=152
Sorry this was so long. Got a brain cramp and couldn't quit.
Peace, health, and prosperity for all, and thanks to everyone for keeping things lively!
:glugglug:
