Michael Moore

[bibo]

1) Not many like the way moore is doing his movies maybe you do as well as other people but a lot of people don't. they find that disruptive and going far beyond the limits

If you´d open your eyes you´d realize that the limits aren´t being set by Moore. The limits of propaganda, of lies and half-truths, of rethorical speeches and polemics have long been crossed. Just the people who only see what they want to see fail to understand.

2) I know what is going on in Irak for a long time.30 years of saddam have left horrible consequences

Hell yeah! The consequences are, that people in a free country aren´t allowed to be against their government anymore. Resembles Saddam somehow doesn´t it.

3) No why must someone attack Bush? Isn't that too easy? None attacked clinton when he was a president kinda weak excuse isn't it.The methods taht Moore uses are more than questionable, you can't deny that. Michael Moore's books are based on hatred and hate of the us government as well as the hate of the nra despite he is a member.He doesn't like his country that much.Conclusion he fails by acting like this.

So... according to your logic, someone who doesn´t follow the government like a blind sheep can not be a patriot? Ever thought of the idea that he wrote all this crap BECAUSE he likes his country? The Land of the Free you know... this silly image that the United States used to have in the movies and stuff?
And why attack Bush? Well... it wasn´t Clinton who started the war was it? It wasn´t the Clinton administration who lied to the UN was it?

4) I never liked Mr Moore as compared to you.

I do?
Just because I´m defending someone´s right to have an opinion makes me a Fanboy? In case you still don´t see it: I don´t care about Moore. But I DO care about treating political opponents like dissidents and the idea of an untouchable government. Because regardless whether you like it or not, THIS is what´s making our civilization and our ideals worth fighting for. If you want a bunch of lemmings gladly going to war and singing the songs their grand leader is singing, then you´ve still not arrived in the 20th century. Our families have died to create the world and no, I`m NOT willing to let those ideas go without a fight.

5) here is where i reproached you to put words in my mouth by saying this:
"Welcome to the wonderful world of euphemisms. Killing the jews was described as "ethnical cleansing". Doesn´t change a goddamn thing though.Violence is violence, no matter what term you´re hiding behind." when i told you that i was frank and straightforward

Yes. And when you´re using "frank" and "straightforward" as synonyms for your acceptance of violence, then you´re using euphemisms. Plain and simple.

7) it is better not to speak a false thing when you don't know something about a person.

Wise words, dude, wise words. Do you know me? Or Michael Moore? Pot Kettle anyone?

8)I hate Mr Moore methods and not many people like them except you and some moore fans.

As I said, I`m not a Moore fan. I`m just a fan of democracy and I hate dictators and obtruded thinking... and violence.

 

[georges]

1)If you´d open your eyes you´d realize that the limits aren´t being set by Moore. The limits of propaganda, of lies and half-truths, of rethorical speeches and polemics have long been crossed. Just the people who only see what they want to see fail to understand.
2)Hell yeah! The consequences are, that people in a free country aren´t allowed to be against their government anymore. Resembles Saddam somehow doesn´t it.
3)So... according to your logic, someone who doesn´t follow the government like a blind sheep can not be a patriot? Ever thought of the idea that he wrote all this crap BECAUSE he likes his country? The Land of the Free you know... this silly image that the United States used to have in the movies and stuff?
And why attack Bush? Well... it wasn´t Clinton who started the war was it? It wasn´t the Clinton administration who lied to the UN was it?
4)I do?
Just because I´m defending someone´s right to have an opinion makes me a Fanboy? In case you still don´t see it: I don´t care about Moore. But I DO care about treating political opponents like dissidents and the idea of an untouchable government. Because regardless whether you like it or not, THIS is what´s making our civilization and our ideals worth fighting for. If you want a bunch of lemmings gladly going to war and singing the songs their grand leader is singing, then you´ve still not arrived in the 20th century. Our families have died to create the world and no, I`m NOT willing to let those ideas go without a fight.
5)Yes. And when you´re using "frank" and "straightforward" as synonyms for your acceptance of violence, then you´re using euphemisms. Plain and simple.
6)Wise words, dude, wise words. Do you know me? Or Michael Moore? Pot Kettle anyone?
7)As I said, I`m not a Moore fan. I`m just a fan of democracy and I hate dictators and obtruded thinking... and violence.

1) my answer: i already knew that
2) my answer: in a period of war against terrorism, it is not the time to make polemics and contest, let the governement do his job.whining is always easy especially when a government leaded by a weakminded democrat clinton did nothing for arresting ben laden
3)clinton was the worst president ever he knew that there were ben ladenists in the us so he is indirectly responsible of the shit that happened to the us
4) i think you misunderstood me there is a difference between expressing your opinion and attacking a government according to your beliefs.Also i never said taht i wanted a bunch of lemmings complete bs i don't want weakminded people in a government, just looking at my own country iam more tahn enough ashamed of chirac
5) i don't like to use force not violence but if needed i will use it
6) no i don't but about mr moore i have seen eough of him in bowling for colombine
7) i am for democracy too but combined with disciplin and where people respect other people. violence?????disciplin describes what you are authorized to do and what is forbidden. too much freedom can cause disorder.There are rules and they are the same dor everyone even for mr moore.obstruted thinking.???i don't think so we just have a different way of thinking

 

[Brino]

None attacked clinton when he was a president kinda weak excuse isn't it.

georges are you trying to say that no one attacked Clinton when he was president? If so your forgetting about the whole Monica Lewinski scandal. Paula Jones, Ken Starr and a dozen others attacked Clinton when he was president. They tried to impeach the guy for crying out loud. Maybe if Clinton hadnt been so busy trying to fight off the republican attack dogs he would have done more about terrorism. And dont forget that a major terrorist attack was averted under Clinton and Bush was to busy on vacation to to prevent 9/11. So tell me again how Clinton was worse for fighting terrorism than Bush I'd love to hear it.

 

[Starman]

I've never liked USA's big funding to the defense. Why not use that money to finance schools, hospitals, elderly care, libraries and such? Do USA really really need such a big army with so many bombs and other weapons?

I've read that Bush has started, or wants to start, to build more nukes. You already have more than TWENTY-THOUSAND!!! And he wants to build more...

Terrorists are humans, and all humans can be reasoned with. They are terrorists for a reason, remove the reasons, and you have no more people being terrorists. If you think that terrorists are so motivated by hate and their backwards religion that they will do whatever they can to destroy, then I'd like to add that you have to remember that not all terrorists are muslims, and that you're just making it easy for you. It's easier to find reasons to dislike or hate someone, than to try to figure out why people are like the are, and how it can be solved peacefully. It's always easier to do actions of violence and anger, than to try to come up with rational sensible solutions. It's easy to hate when you live under injustice. It's easier to try to find things to hate, than to try to find ways to solve one's situation.

Let me quote myself from an earlier post I wrote in this thread:

Originally posted by Starman
All intelligent beings are capable of communcation, and thus susceptible for diplomacy. No one gets born as a terrorist, criminal, pervert or any other kind of "deviant". It's all about the life situation and life experiences that makes people into what they become. If one decreases the poverty, oppression and other injustices in the world, you do also decrease the reasons to why people becomes "deviants". You can't fight violence with violence. Violent actions just creates violent counter-actions. It's all cause and effect, quite simple to understand, I think, a little more difficult to do something about, but if you try hard and work together anything can be done. All that's needed is time, patience and co-operation.

Yes, I know that this is easier said than done, but if you don't try, isn't that a sort of crime against your fellow men? I belive that all people are born equal, no matter your etnicity, nationality, gender and so on. You should treat people like you would like to be treated yourself, if you were in trouble, wouldn't you like that someone stretched out a hand to give you help and assistance, instead of passively just watch while you feel bad? They've been living under harsh dictatorships all their lives, the Western World has just passively watched, wouldn't you eventually start to lash out at anger and in hate? I'm not supporting their actions, I'm just saying that I understand why they are doing them. I wish they wouldn't do their actions, but I wish that USA wouldn't start wars without UN clearence. What was the hurry? Couldn't Bush have waited the neccessary days or weeks that was needed for it? Or at least making sure that the "proof" actually were authentic?

I would have liked to see Bush wait, there was no rush, but it has happened and we can't change it, but what we can try to do is to do something so it will not be repeated. How will children learn if they don't get any repurcussions of their actions? How will USA and Bush learn if they don't get any repurcussions when they do illegal acts against international laws? Not even USA should stand above the international laws.

I hope that someone less athoritarian and right-winged than Bush wins the presidental election, that would be a good start for better politics when it comes to both USA's domestic and foreign politics.

 

[Brino]

I've never liked USA's big funding to the defense. Why not use that money to finance schools, hospitals, elderly care, libraries and such? Do USA really really need such a big army with so many bombs and other weapons?

I agree that we should spend more money on schools and education and domestic issues. But the U.S. army isnt as big and powerful as you think. Weve already been stretched thin in Iraq and there's even talk of a draft (wont happen though) If some sort of domestic problem arises at home that requres the National Guard then were screwed because a lot of them are in Iraq. And if we go to war with North Korea or Iran which might happen if Bush is re-elected then where are the troops going to come from? We have been forced to spend the money on defense and Bush has built up a huge deficit with the Iraq war. And as much as I hate to admit it being the only superpower in the world has put a huge target on our back so we need to have that money spent on defense to protect ourselves. How are we supposed to talk with terrorists when we dont even know who they are or where they are.

Sorry if I sound like a conservative I dont mean to.

 

[Ranger]

foxfilm, I have already concluded that I am a bumbling dolt that can't stand toe to toe with you in a post let alone this thread. So I am not even going to try. I can match up with several of the other posters on this thread that is why I hang around. Besides, there are too many libs ganging up on geroges.

Regarding the word "imagination", I was trying to be polite. I was going to call it something else. Another word that is not used in proper English. That is just my opinion and nothing to be taken personal.

Ranger

:glugglug:

 

[georges]

Besides, there are too many libs ganging up on geroges.

i am not afraid to face the libs. it is because of the too libs like clinton that us is fucked up. For some libs when you talk about disciplin it is like dictature.
Too weak excuse isn't it?

 

[Starman]

Originally posted by georges
As someone said me on other forum "there will be no shit if you start no shit". Michael Moore began to stir shit with nra and now with Irak when it wasn't his business now his goal is to show Bush as bad.

Who really started the shit? There was already quite a lot of shit before Michael Moore came and complained about it. The whole human history is full of shit, but if no one ever complains, have we really learned anything from it? If these people in NRA, in politics and other places never are questioned, how can you be sure they are playing by the rules? Why isn't the Iraq war Michael Moore's business? I thought it was everyone's business as we're all citizens of the world, and as Michael Moore is an American too, shouldn't he be concerned what his tax money are paying for? If politicians can never be questioned, what the point of having a democracy? Why not make it all into a dictatorship right away?

Originally posted by georges
Michael Moore is like Kerry's Goebbels that is evident.

That's so silly I don't think I even have to comment it, but I'll make an attempt anyway. According to the political compass Bush is closer to Hitler than Kerry is. That's no lie or "mudslinging", just the truth. Bush are more extremist than Kerry, Kerry is closer to the center of the compass. To compare any of these people with Hitler I think is extremely silly. If I have to be honest I neither like Kerry nor Bush, but if I have to choose what I think is the lesser evil I would choose Kerry.

Originally posted by georges
However i am sick of this Michael Moore fanboyism really it is time to stop to believe all what is said in the media or elsewhere. So conclusion you have to be selective when you hear news and analyze facts and not be blind.

What about your George W. Bush fanboyism? Maybe you should be less selective, and actually try to analyze facts instead of closing your eyes to everything not compliant with your political view?

Originally posted by georges
But disruption and slinging mud like Michael Moore does and which passes through movies should be submitted under control and if the movies are too disruptive they should be banned.

So you believe that everything you don't agree with might actually cause people brain damage, or what do you mean? Why would it be so harmful to listen to different opinions, even though one might not agree with them? I think you're underestimating the intellectual capability of your fellow men. People are more capable to make up their own minds than you might think. Just because they might not agree with you, doesn't mean they are stupid or brainwashed.

Originally posted by georges
That is my opinion.

This was mine.

 

[georges]

Goddammit . stop seeing bush as evil. always the same propaganda that i hear in France, if many people vote for Bush are they all idiots? no they don't like weak people and i understand plainly.
I don't care of the compass. People prefer someone with authority to a weak person.
Bush extremist ? He is just protecting the interests of his country.
Politicians should be asked by a competent person not by some disruptive pig with no tact and no respect for them.
I am not closing my eyes but you do because all what says Moore is for you like the holly graal, be down to earth and stop taking Mr Moore propaganda so seriously.
Someone who follows blindly Moore because he uses propaganda is i think a proof of lacking the capacity by thinking by herself.The situation is diffferent if you have concrete facts prouving that gwb is that bad.
Always easy to complain isn't it?However it is not by using the methods that Michael Moore use that we will know more the truth.

 

[Starman]

Besides, there are too many libs ganging up on geroges.

With the risk of opening a can of worms I have to admit that I'm not Liberal, neither am I Conservative, I am a Socialist.

Check my post on the Liberal or Conservative thread for more info.

http://board.freeones.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=135004#post135004

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Interesting how Moore wants Bush to attend the showing of his film in Bush's home town, yet Moore won't allow himself to be questioned about his tactics in the film.

Double standard?? Yep, that's Micheal Moore for you. If you do it, its wrong, but when I do the exact same, its perfectly OK.

 

[Brino]

Interesting how Moore wants Bush to attend the showing of his film in Bush's home town, yet Moore won't allow himself to be questioned about his tactics in the film.

Double standard?? Yep, that's Micheal Moore for you. If you do it, its wrong, but when I do the exact same, its perfectly OK.

Yes it is ok. Why shouldnt moore do it when republicans do it all the time?

 

[Brino]

Support F9/11
http://www.suntimes.com/output/eb-feature/cst-ftr-moore18.html
(old but still makes some interesting points)
Against F9/11
http://www.larryelder.com/911/debunking911.html

let me ask you (in favor of bush) this:

"why is America in iraq and not in sudan? because when it comes to oppressing human rights.."

"why is America in iraq and not in pakistan? because when it comes to weapons of mass destruction..."

"why is America in iraq and not in libia? because when it comes to threatening the usa with terrorist acts..."

 

[Brino]

From the War room

9/11 Commission Report Confirms Key Fahrenheit 9/11 Facts

The September 11 Commission's 567-page final report has confirmed key facts presented in Fahrenheit 9/11. These include:


Attorney General John Ashcroft told acting FBI director Thomas Pickard that he did not want to hear anything more about terrorist threats. Confirmed, Commission Report at p. 265

After Bush was informed of the first plane hitting the World Trade Center, he went ahead with his classroom event. After Bush was informed that the nation was under attack after the second plane hit, Bush stayed in the classroom for nearly seven more minutes, continuing to read with the children. Confirmed, Commission Report at pp. 35, 38-39.

Bush failed to have even one meeting to discuss the threat of terrorism with his head of counterterrorism Richard Clarke. Confirmed, Commission Report at p. 201.

Bush failed to react to the August 6, 2001 security briefing, “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S.” Confirmed, Commission Report at pp. 260-262.

142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country after September 13. Confirmed, Commission Report at p. 556, n. 25 [Note that Fahrenheit 9/11 understates the number of Saudis who left.]

Individuals were interviewed by the FBI before being allowed to leave (although the report confirms that most individuals on these flights were not interviewed.) Confirmed, Commission Report at p. 557, n. 28.

White House former counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke approved these flights. Confirmed, Commission Report at p. 329.

It should also be noted that the 9/11 Commission does not address or deem important a number of other issues either addressed in Fahrenheit 9/11 or revealed since completion of the film, including:

What exactly was the rush in getting these individuals out of the country so soon after the worst attack in U.S. history, why did Saudi Royals and bin Laden family members receive such special treatment at a time when most Americans still could not get flights (even though airspace may have been open), and how exactly were the flights arranged by the U.S. government?

Several unanswered questions posed by Senator Byron Dorgan (D-ND) in a July 20, 2004, Grand Forks Herald column: “At a time when 14 of the 19 terrorists from Sept. 11 were Saudi citizens, how and why were six secret flights allowed to sneak 142 Saudi citizens out of the United States in the days after Sept. 11 before they were properly interrogated? How do we know they weren't properly questioned? Because Dale Watson, the No. 2 man and former head of counterterrorism at the FBI has said none of them were subjected to ‘serious’ interrogation or questions before being allowed to leave. In fact, we now know that at least two and perhaps more of the Saudis who were allowed to leave after Sept. 11 were under investigation by the FBI for alleged terrorist connections.”

Information that came to light in Dana Milbank’s July 22, 2004 Washington Post article, including the fact that at least one bin Laden family member who was allowed to leave lived with a nephew of Osama bin Laden, who "was involved in forming the U.S. branch of the World Assembly of Muslim Youth" (WAMY), which the FBI has described as “a suspected terrorist organization,” and that the bin Ladens flew out of the country on the same airplane that “has been chartered frequently by the White House for the press corps traveling with President Bush.”

A full comparison of the findings of the 9/11 Commission and Fahrenheit 9/11 will be posted shortly.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Yes it is ok. Why shouldnt moore do it when republicans do it all the time?

Its like being pissed at your wife because she slept with a co-worker, but think its OK to sleep with one of your co-workers. moore is pissed at the stance the media has taken on some things, but then goes ahead and does the same from the other side of the road.

You can't complain about something, then go ahead and do the same thing herself

 

[Brino]

Its like being pissed at your wife because she slept with a co-worker, but think its OK to sleep with one of your co-workers. moore is pissed at the stance the media has taken on some things, but then goes ahead and does the same from the other side of the road.

You can't complain about something, then go ahead and do the same thing herself

Problems with the wifey Sanchez? No disrespect but you can it's called hypocrisy. And though it's not a charming aspect people still do it and have the right to do it. Even Michael Moore. If the republicans and conservatives are going to fight fire with fire then kudos to Moore for doing the same.

 

[foxfilm]

DS: I'm not sure of what you're talking about here... I take it you're trying to argue an anti-Moore point, but it seems your only condemnation is that he took a point of view that the mainstream media didn't.

RE: Double standard... None whatsoever. First, your argument is apples and oranges. In one case, someone is asking that another person who has been hammering his work without ever even seeing it check the movie out. In the other, someone is asking someone else for an interview that's being refused. They're in no way connected in the way you're trying to argue, the way I'm reading it. In fact, their only commonalities are pissed off conservatives who aren't getting vital information. One by choice, and the other because he doesn't have the resume or credentials that would command an interview with anyone of Moore's stature.

(But, as I said before, Moore should placate the little douchebag in my view. Just don't answer any of his questions and use the interview as an opportunity to just rant. From what I saw on the Daily Show, the guy wouldn't have the talent to cut together something damaging out of a well spewed diatribe. )

But more importantly: Nice research, Brino! Did I see you were a college student in another thread? Where? What's your major?

:hatsoff:

 

[Brino]

But more importantly: Nice research, Brino! Did I see you were a college student in another thread? Where? What's your major?

:hatsoff:

Yes you did! I go to Cacadia Community College just outside of Seattle although I'm only a freshman and I haven't chosen a major yet.
Here's the website if your interested
http://www.cascadia.ctc.edu

 

[Brino]

Here's a good political forum I came across
http://www.americanforum.net/forums/?camp=0713IMAO

 

[Brino]

Here's an Electoral Vote Predictor
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
I'm pround to say that my state is in the blue even if it is lite blue.