Max Hardcore Saint or Sinner?

[Rey C.]

Alright, I can see that I was overly broad with what I said. Pertaining to porn only, its production involves real people performing risky activities, and ignorance about the risks is a problem in some cases. These days, I think that a significant percentage of the hardcore porn produced has become too extreme, in that people are being harmed physically and that people who may not be entirely in control of themselves (due to mind-altering drugs) and/or are mentally ill are performing in it. There is a hardcore porn industry, and just like any other industry, there are rules that it should abide by. I happen to think that the government is not currently doing enough to regulate the porn industry.

So the porn industry (and perhaps other forms of expression?) should adhere to your belief system? If individuals are doing something that you don't approve of, they're obviosly on drugs or mentally incapacitated, and government intervention is obviously necessary? Unless people are staying within bounds that you, and those like you, create, their activities need to be "regulated"? Interesting... and quite fascinating.

Censorship and obscenity prosecution seem to be motivated more by emotion, politics, and/or religion than by logic. That is why I want to see psychologists and medical doctors take a good look at what is happening within the hardcore porn industry. Obviously, the government would have to instigate something like that.

You've yet to answer my question about the porn that I might someday be producing and selling. As a working title, we're going to go with "Gal-pal Spanked" for right now. Since it's my camera, my house and my idea, I'm going to be taking production costs off the top. Any problem with that? And I'm the better one with money, so let's take it that I'll also be her manager (15% seems fair). How much into our activities is your Porn Commission going to be??? If she's drinking some wine before the scene, does that mean that she's being taken advantage of, by the Commission's standards? I want an answer. By what criteria will these moral standards of porn be decided and established??? Why can't you answer what is "too extreme"? What if I say that a depiction of infidelity is too extreme? If I'm on this Porn Commission, and enough of us decide that is what's best, then I guess we say it, and it shall be. So say I, so say we all!

Perhaps one day soon we'll be able to make 100% computer-generated porn that doesn't involve real people taking risks to produce it. Then, I suppose, things would get a lot murkier regarding regulation. Extreme content would still be produced, but no one could argue that production of it would be harming anyone. Consumption might remain a problem for some people, but that would put porn into the same category as video games, Hollywood movies, and books.

Well wait a minute, just above you said:

Whether people like it or not, individuals of all ages are exposed to it*. It does affect a significant number of its viewers mentally*. It needs to be regulated. Harshly.

So which is it? Even your computer generated porn could cause sex fiends to be roaming the streets.

And what branch of the government regulates movies, books and video games? I hadn't heard of that before. When did this begin? Oh wait a minute, what country are we talking about here, China? I apologize. I make assumptions sometimes. I thought we were talking about the United States of America. Ya know, the one with the Bill of Rights.

 

[Blink]

So the porn industry (and perhaps other forms of expression?) should adhere to your belief system? If individuals are doing something that you don't approve of, they're obviosly on drugs or mentally incapacitated, and government intervention is obviously necessary? Unless people are staying within bounds that you, and those like you, create, their activities need to be "regulated"?

Not mine. As I said, I want two specific scientific fields to examine hardcore porn production. I am certain that they would find quite a lot to take issue with.

You've yet to answer my question about the porn that I might someday be producing and selling.

I'm mostly concerned about the larger companies and producers.

So which is it? Even your computer generated porn could cause sex fiends to be roaming the streets.

That's true, but real hardcore porn produced in a more scrutinized environment and CG porn would eliminate my argument about hardcore porn production causing serious harm to performers. Even educating people about _all_ of the risks of the activities that they engage in would go a long way toward addressing my concerns.

And what branch of the government regulates movies, books and video games? I hadn't heard of that before. When did this begin? Oh wait a minute, what country are we talking about here, China? I apologize. I make assumptions sometimes. I thought we were talking about the United States of America. Ya know, the one with the Bill of Rights.

You've never heard of the ESRB, age-based game ratings ("Mature" etc.), movie ratings (PG-13, R, XXX), et cetera? Those are regulations. Granted, books aren't regulated much, but there really isn't much of a need to do so; kids generally don't want to read the works of de Sade and Nietzsche for example (although it could be argued that they shouldn't be exposed to religious texts, eh? ), and adults aren't quite as impressionable.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not for censorship. I just think that the hardcore porn industry needs much more oversight. At least until CG porn and education improve the situation for production. I don't have a problem with performers choosing to perform highly risky activities if they're fully aware of what they're getting into. Unfortunately, that is not the case at the moment, even for the fans who are demanding such activities. If the performers are fully informed of the risks and choose to do something anyway (sans drugs and mental disorders), then they can't come back later with a grudge against the porn industry for their health problems, right?

 

[usmc071984]

the man is evil and disgusting. it discrases the human race how he is able to treat young women like that. jail time was getting off easy in my opinion.

 

[Rey C.]

Not mine. As I said, I want two specific scientific fields to examine hardcore porn production. I am certain that they would find quite a lot to take issue with.

Depending on their political point of view, I'm sure they would. I've read studies over the years that "proved" that porn increases the incidence of rape and molestation - those were usually backed by radical feminists and religious groups. Other studies found no such cause & effect. Why not just ban all forms of pornography and be done with it? I mean, why take the chance? When in doubt, stamp it out. Yeah? :dunno:

I'm mostly concerned about the larger companies and producers.

Was Max Hardcore part of a "larger company"? "Larger" isn't really quantifiable. I don't believe he was anything close to the size of Vivid or the old Gourmet Video. So how would you (or your Porn Commission) define that, and why would the size of the company matter?

That's true, but real hardcore porn produced in a more scrutinized environment and CG porn would eliminate my argument about hardcore porn production causing serious harm to performers. Even educating people about _all_ of the risks of the activities that they engage in would go a long way toward addressing my concerns.

So, if I understand you, you want the government to regulate and enforce processes and procedures for adults from 18-80, or as long as they're in the porn industry? Well, as I begin to understand your logic, I suppose this would be rather appropriate. Perhaps a mandatory pension plan too?

You've never heard of the ESRB, age-based game ratings ("Mature" etc.), movie ratings (PG-13, R, XXX), et cetera? Those are regulations. Granted, books aren't regulated much, but there really isn't much of a need to do so; kids generally don't want to read the works of de Sade and Nietzsche for example (although it could be argued that they shouldn't be exposed to religious texts, eh? ), and adults aren't quite as impressionable.

The ESRB is a self-regulatory body. Has the government recently taken them over? And you do realize that if you choose to release an unrated movie, you can. Your distribution will likely be hampered, but that's an industry and an individual decision, not a government decision. By what constitutional authority do you think this government intrusion would fly? Course, if we tear up the Bill of Rights, don't really have to worry about that, I guess.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not for censorship.

Really? A rose by another name then?

I just think that the hardcore porn industry needs much more oversight. At least until CG porn and education improve the situation for production. I don't have a problem with performers choosing to perform highly risky activities if they're fully aware of what they're getting into. Unfortunately, that is not the case at the moment, even for the fans who are demanding such activities. If the performers are fully informed of the risks and choose to do something anyway (sans drugs and mental disorders), then they can't come back later with a grudge against the porn industry for their health problems, right?

Once you reach the age of majority, you begin to make decisions on how you want to live your life, and what things you will do... or won't do. It is not the place of government to act as a nanny, to guide each and every person through life, so that they don't do things which some do not approve of. Protecting people from their own stupidity just encourages more stupidity. Show me the person who has been forced to do something (in or out of porn) and I am on their side. But some sort of Ministry of Porn and Morality? That is just the beginnings of a totalitarian state.

It doesn't surpise me that you mentioned books, especially religious texts above. I mean, we can't have people forming thoughts which might be contrary to those of the state, now can we? I'd say we better look into that 1st Amendment all the way through. I've noticed a lot of people saying things that aren't good for our brother comrades either. We must do something about that!

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.

Ah yes, sing it loud and sing it proud. :bowdown:

 

[Rey C.]

the man is evil and disgusting. it discrases the human race how he is able to treat young women like that. jail time was getting off easy in my opinion.

Evil? Maybe. Disgusting? IMO, yes, he is. Does it disgrace the human race that he would treat young women like that, or is it equally disgraceful that some young women would take money, knowing that they were going to be treated like that? If you don't like it, don't do it. If it disgusts you, don't watch it. People (at least for now) do have free will, ya know?

Like I said, I wouldn't pee on Max Hardcore if he was standing in front of me with his head on fire. But it amazes me that people are so completely unable/unwilling to take responsibility for their own actions. Everyone wants to play the victim these days. From the far left to the far right, everybody has a sad story to tell.

It's like I could say to someone, "I'll give you $10,000 if you'll beat yourself in the head with a hammer until you pass out." And their dumbass does it. But now, according to the logic of some, we need a(nother) taxpayer funded government agency to counsel people on the dangers of hitting themselves in the head with hammers.

The far right has Sarah Palin and the far left has this. God help us all. :crying:

 

[Serpent7]

What Max Hardcore does in his films disgust me, i'll admit to that. What i'd like to know is what porn movies are you guys watching? Does everyone here only watch features from Vivid and Digital Playground? No one here is watching gonzo from Red Light District, Zero Tolerance, Platinum X? Never seen the throat gagging, ass to mouth (a2m), ass to other girls mouth (a2otgm), slapping, spitting, peeing, punching in the side of the leg (haven't figured that one out yet), double anal, double vaginal, bukake, eating of cream pies, eating of anal cream pies, and the multitude of other degrading circus acts that are a normal occurrance in most companies movies?

Where Max goes wrong is the fact that he presents degrading acts in a degrading fashion, very over the top. But the fact of the matter is every company (gonzo) represents sex to its customers as beautiful women who are a piece of meat to be poked and prodded by any number of men any kind of way. There isn't an ounce of eroticism in any gonzo production out there that i've seen, and i've seen quite a lot more than the average porn viewer.

It's easy for some to rip Max Hardcore, especially contract girls, because he is a niche in the market, not mainstream like Red Light or Anabolic, an easy, safe target. But you're not going to hear too many people take their shots at say...Erik Everhard after he tries to force feed some newbie his cock while holding her nostrils closed to force her to gag more. That's not going to happen.

Max Hardcore has had his share of legal problems (and well deserved) with the US government over his productions and has survived so far. I think that one day someone in the government is going to take a serious look at the current situation throughout the entire industry and Max may be the least of its problems. Just a humble man's opinion.

Almost totally agree with this accept one part... But, IMO 99% dead on! Thanks for posting.

 

[wrayven]

I am not a fan of his work, but Max does not deserve to be prosecuted under the circumstances. I like watching rougher sex, but I find Max's work to be pretty tasteless. I gravitated more to Buttman & other Evil Angel directors for this type of porn. Max always seemed like a with chip on his shoulder towards most women. However, he is neither a sinner or a saint(though I voted sinner-would have voted neither if it had been a choice as I believe he is a purveyor of boring pornography).

 

[Blink]

Depending on their political point of view, I'm sure they would. I've read studies over the years that "proved" that porn increases the incidence of rape and molestation - those were usually backed by radical feminists and religious groups. Other studies found no such cause & effect. Why not just ban all forms of pornography and be done with it? I mean, why take the chance? When in doubt, stamp it out. Yeah?

I'm not going to get into a debate about the merits of various studies. I don't think you could convincingly argue that porn does not have a very significant and very widespread impact upon societies globally. All I'm suggesting is that something temporary be done (hence "I just think that the hardcore porn industry needs much more oversight. At least until...") to uncover exactly what is going on within California's hardcore porn industry; current and former pornstars have claimed that there are many serious problems within it. I think that psychologists and medical doctors would be the most qualified and the most logical choice for such an effort. Further action, if necessary, could then be recommended, and of course it would be subject to public scrutiny if the government were to be involved in any remedial actions.

As for the relevance of the company size, anyone with a digicam and Internet access can potentially produce porn. Consequently, a short-term endeavor aimed primarily at factual, peer-reviewed research and possibly remedial recommendation would have to be carefully targetted.

The ESRB is a self-regulatory body.

I know; the ESRB achieves the same effect as government regulation. I'm actually surprised that it has been so successful.

By what constitutional authority do you think this government intrusion would fly?

Greater government involvement is sometimes necessary when industries do not adhere to existing regulations backed by law, and when industries do not reign themselves in. As a paper co-authored by the Director of the Sexually Transmitted Disease program for the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health, Peter Kerndt, points out, those two factors both apply to California's porn industry:

"Recognizing that local regulations would have limited impact and seeking to establish existing standards for work health and safety in the industry, officials from the Los Angeles Department of Public Health requested an investigation of the April 2004 HIV outbreak. In September of 2004, Cal/OSHA fined the two production companies in the outbreak $30,560 each for failure to comply with blood-borne pathogen standards [22]. Having established that regulation does apply to the industry, enforcement of the workplace standards is now the issue. OSHA is limited by the number of enforcement officials and therefore will only act in response to a complaint. Workers may be unaware of their rights or reluctant to file a complaint for fear of loss of employment or employer retaliation...

Lacking the will or ability to regulate itself, the adult film industry needs state and federal legislation to enforce health and safety standards for adult film performers. Local officials lack the authority to impose fines and Cal/OSHA's monitoring and enforcement capability is limited."
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1892037

http://www.dir.ca.gov/DOSH/AdultFilmIndustry.html

Protecting people from their own stupidity just encourages more stupidity.

I don't think that is always true for every situation. It really depends on the circumstances. When the U.S. government tried to "save people from themselves" by forcing tobacco companies to curb advertising and to educate consumers about the risks of smoking, was it a successful endeavor? I think that it was, and it seems to me that the current situation with the porn industry is very similar indeed.

It doesn't surpise me that you mentioned books, especially religious texts above.

It doesn't surprise me that the joke went over your head entirely. That smiley was there for a reason.

 

[glock27]

I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I don't like watching rough scenes, because I do.

However, I have never liked Max Hardcore's scenes, but not because he is too degrading or too abusive or whatever.

My problem (and I suspect many people's problem) with Max Hardcore's vids, is that they just aren't "sexy". Max is not sexy, the way he portrays the girls is not sexy, and so, his harder edged antics come off as repulsive, not titilating.

It's like the debate in the movie Boogie Nights where the Mark Wahlberg character is trying to convince the Burt Reyonlds character that the nature of the scene he is doing isn't appealing.

If Max himself looked like the kind of dude every chick would want to hook up with, and if the girls he worked with were all presented in a more universally appealing light, then these movies wouldn't be getting half the flak that they are.

Who really wants to see a decrepit, unattractive old guy, in khaki shorts and a ten-gallon hat, get it on with these sad parodies of what I'm assuming is supposed to be a lolita stereotype?

A very small segment of the population, I would wajor.

But if it was sexy . . . if it were a young stud that most male viewers could identify with, and could project themselves onto, and if the girls involved not only appealed to a glamourized fantasy as opposed to a parodied one, and if everyone involved treated each other with the professionalism and courtesy due to one's colleague in this business, then no one would be saying word one about these videos.

In fact, they would be talking about how these videos took harder edged material and brought it into the mainstream with style and grace.

Again, I have no problem with things getting rough in my pornos. Neither do I have any problem with the actresses pretending to be younger than they are. As long as in real life, the actors and filmmakers are all consenting adults, then do what the hell you want. Personally, I can compartmentalize my fantasies and keep them separate from my thinking or actions in the real world.

All I ask is that you make it sexy.

 

[Rey C.]

^ I can see your point, glock27 (great username, by the way I guess I could have called myself Glock22, Colt Walker or AK-47 Man when I first got here - hmm, shoulda considered those ). But I'm good with your view. Max's stuff isn't for you, and that's that. I always thought Max was pretty goofy - so I've not watched his stuff. Wild Bill was a guy from years ago who was pretty funny. But his stuff wasn't as brutal as Max's, plus his mix of humor and various fetishes made a good movie, IMO.

But still, his stuff may not be for everyone either - so they should watch something (or nothing) else! I just don't want some goody two shoes, pseudo-intellectual wandering around telling people what (according to their view) is acceptable and what isn't. So where I have an issue is with Blink's totalitarian desire to use governmental authority to "protect people from themselves". I think he would be quite happy in China, North Korea or Iran though.

But it's not going to happen here, comrade. You might as well give up on that fantasy now, Blink.

 

[Blink]

But still, his stuff may not be for everyone either - so they should watch something (or nothing) else! I just don't want some goody two shoes, pseudo-intellectual wandering around telling people what (according to their view) is acceptable and what isn't.

I already stated that I don't care about what people do in their own bedrooms. Commercial porn producers, though, sell products for profit to the public, and they have legal rules and regulations to abide by. Those rules and regulations can change over time, and sometimes they're not adequately enforced. You think that regulation should not be necessary; I believe that it is required in an imperfect world.

We'll just have to agree to disagree about this.

So where I have an issue is with Blink's totalitarian desire to use governmental authority to "protect people from themselves". I think he would be quite happy in China, North Korea or Iran though.

But it's not going to happen here, comrade. You might as well give up on that fantasy now, Blink.

No, I certainly am not promoting totalitarianism; I'm promoting socialism in this case.

Socialism may be more common in the U.S. than you would like. Remember when the U.S. Government bailed out various companies? That's socialism. Of course, I happen to think that the (not-so-)free market should have been left to its own devices in that case; unsuccessful companies ought to be replaced by better ones.

 

[Rey C.]

I already stated that I don't care about what people do in their own bedrooms. Commercial porn producers, though, sell products for profit to the public, and they have legal rules and regulations to abide by. Those rules and regulations can change over time, and sometimes they're not adequately enforced. You think that regulation should not be necessary; I believe that it is required in an imperfect world.

You stated above that your concern was based on content and various health concerns, both mental and physical. And above, you also stated that your focus would be on "larger" porn producers. But you have absolutely no data supporting the theory that there is a correlation (and certainly not a cause and effect) between the size of the production company and any sort of public health concerns. For all you know, 95% of the issues that you want to address could be coming from the smallest porn producers (like the ams and bedroom sites). In addition to being unable to really define this (non)issue, your chances of finding and fixing any sort of root cause are almost nil, because you've made a baseless assumption from the get go.

We'll just have to agree to disagree about this.

I think that was well established early on. :1orglaugh I believe in free will, choice, self determination and personal responsibility, and you do not. I believe I already said that we were polar opposites. :dunno:

No, I certainly am not promoting totalitarianism; I'm promoting socialism in this case.

Perhaps you're confused about the definition of socialism. At what point did you suggest government ownership and control of the porn industry, or even individual porn companies? I must have missed that.

Socialism may be more common in the U.S. than you would like. Remember when the U.S. Government bailed out various companies? That's socialism. Of course, I happen to think that the (not-so-)free market should have been left to its own devices in that case; unsuccessful companies ought to be replaced by better ones.

Yes, those had certain elements of socialism, because the government didn't simply loan many of these companies money, they took ownership stakes in the form of stock warrants. Equity relates to ownership and control. Simple debt does not, unless there are overriding covenants. But anyway, no, you have suggested nothing about socialism anywhere above. But within many socialist regimes there are quite often totalitarian elements, which dictate and regulate human behavior. That is what you were posting about above. Your (totally) subjective determinations about what is appropriate and what is not appropriate is what leads you into totalitarianism. Now, if you also want to seize control of porn production companies and nationalize them, then yep, you're a socialist... in addition to be a totalitarian. Congratulations! A 2 for 1 deal. :thumbsup: :rofl:

 

[Blink]

You stated above that your concern was based on content and various health concerns, both mental and physical. And above, you also stated that your focus would be on "larger" porn producers. But you have absolutely no data supporting the theory that there is a correlation (and certainly not a cause and effect) between the size of the production company and any sort of public health concerns. For all you know, 95% of the issues that you want to address could be coming from the smallest porn producers (like the ams and bedroom sites).

I'm just tossing out ideas here. People studying the porn industry have to start somewhere, so it might as well be with the larger companies. It's not as if the government is going to do anything even remotely resembling what I have proposed. If any additional regulation or intervention does occur at some point in the future, it probably won't be anywhere near as benign as what I have suggested.

I believe in free will, choice, self determination and personal responsibility, and you do not.

Yes I do, actually. I've already explained my rationale several times.

In addition to being unable to really define this (non)issue, your chances of finding and fixing any sort of root cause are almost nil, because you've made a baseless assumption from the get go.

Non-issue? False. Unable to define it? Also false. As I stated before:

"Pertaining to porn only, its production involves real people performing risky activities, and ignorance about the risks is a problem in some cases. These days, I think that a significant percentage of the hardcore porn produced has become too extreme, in that people are being harmed physically and that people who may not be entirely in control of themselves (due to mind-altering drugs) and/or are mentally ill are performing in it."

"I don't have a problem with performers choosing to perform highly risky activities if they're fully aware of what they're getting into. Unfortunately, that is not the case at the moment, even for the fans who are demanding such activities. If the performers are fully informed of the risks and choose to do something anyway (sans drugs and mental disorders), then they can't come back later with a grudge against the porn industry for their health problems, right?"

But anyway, no, you have suggested nothing about socialism anywhere above.

Of course not, but many people consider government intervention in free markets to be socialistic.

But within many socialist regimes there are quite often totalitarian elements, which dictate and regulate human behavior. That is what you were posting about above. Your (totally) subjective determinations about what is appropriate and what is not appropriate is what leads you into totalitarianism.

You are way off base here. I think that the fields of psychology and medicine ought to take a critical look at California's hardcore porn industry (as opposed to mostly ignoring it as they seem to be doing now, despite its relevance to both), and report any problems that they find publicly. That is a far cry from advocating that the government should be able to do anything it wants, without limits. Claiming that I support such a concept based on anything I've said here is completely ludicrous and insulting.

If you don't want to address some of the points that I've made, fine. But don't make ridiculous assertions about my character in an attempt to draw attention away from them. This will be my last reply unless you consider the evidence that I have provided and come up with a reasonable argument. And try to pay more attention; I dislike repeating myself.

 

[Rey C.]

I'm going to sum it up for you as quick as I can, bud. Cause you're clearly just here to I don't believe in trying to protect people from themselves. And I don't try to fix the one thing that cannot be fixed: stupid. People like you have been trying for thousands of years to do it. But even the mighty Greeks and Romans couldn't fix stupid. Stop wasting your time trying to fix stupid, and wanting to waste my money trying to fix stupid. Stupid cannot be fixed. Live that. Love that. Accept that. Ain't gonna happen.


Let me give you the (most) basic libertarian rundown on this, Daddy-O.

If Porn Starlet X is taking drugs, that's her decision. If Porn Starlet X is damaging herself by taking it in the ass for the 20th time during an orgy scene, it's her rectum to take care of. If Porn Starlet X believes that someone is asking her to do a scene that is degrading, she can walk away.

If Porn Viewer X is taking drugs while watching Porn Starlet X take it in the ass for the 20th time during an orgy scene, that's his decision. If Porn Viewer X doesn't like taking drugs or watching Porn Starlet X take it in the ass for the 20th time during an orgy scene, he can avoid drugs and he can click the little X at the top of his browser or turn his DVD player off.

If Professor Moonbeam X wants to do a study on the porn industry to see why Porn Starlet X is willing to accept $2500 to take it in the ass 20 times during an orgy scene, or why Porn Viewer X likes to watch her take it in the ass 20 times during an orgy scene, Professor Moonbeam X can do that. No one is stopping him. Let him knock himself out.

If Porn X Productions, Inc. wants to follow Professor Moonbeam X's recommendations, that's up to them. If Porn X Productions, Inc. tells Professor Moonbeam X to go fuck himself with a broken glass dildo, that is also up to them.

If Senator Asshole X wants to try to pass a measure to impose his (and Moonbeam X's) moral standards on the porn industry, disguised as law, that's up to him. And if the voters kick him out on his ass in the next election, well now... that is up to them.

If the Supreme Court says that the law that Senator Asshole X sponsored and got passed is constitutional, then it stands. If they toss it in the garbage can, then it doesn't. I'll live with whatever they decide, whether I personally agree with it or not.

Your mileage may vary. But... clear enough?


P.S. And don't use the word "socialism" if you don't know what it (actually) means. Don't use an economic system to describe a social engineering experiment that has nothing to do with that, or any other economic system. Just because you say that you've seen ignorant people misuse the word, that doesn't make a bastardized definition acceptable. :hatsoff:

 

[Blink]

Cause you're clearly just here to

Here to ... what? Actually, I'm probably not, but I think we got off on the wrong foot. I was rather upset (not about this topic in particular), and I posted some... ahem, stupid things. A thread about Max Hardcore and Obscenity, two very controversial topics, does not exactly promote careful and rational thought either. This isn't the first time that I've let a discussion about obscenity prosecution cloud my judgment, and perhaps you can imagine how divided I can be about this entire subject: I was thinking that the government should do something about porn, but not this.

I don't believe in trying to protect people from themselves. And I don't try to fix the one thing that cannot be fixed: stupid. People like you have been trying for thousands of years to do it. But even the mighty Greeks and Romans couldn't fix stupid. Stop wasting your time trying to fix stupid, and wanting to waste my money trying to fix stupid. Stupid cannot be fixed. Live that. Love that. Accept that. Ain't gonna happen.

I have considered that possibility myself, but it's a bitter pill to swallow.

 

[Rey C.]

True. Perhaps we did get off on the wrong foot.

Interesting discussion nonetheless.

 

[jothegoon]

i hate him

 

[Tobor]

What if there was a female version of Max Hardcore? An older woman with a production company that released movies with all that action that is going on in the Max Hardcore scenes but just reversed.

Take young looking, inexperienced men, portray them as underaged boys (or leave it to question like in a lot of the milf-themed-movies), and have a female performer fuck the shit out of them, pee on them, fuck them with a strapon if their unit goes limp after a while, put the strapon in their throat until they throw up, beat and choke them, spit on them...etc.

There are even several femdom-websites that have content like that, take meninpain or clubdom as an example. Here in Europe (which is a different situation of course) we have websites and movies that are even "worse". Nobody cares.

But would this (highly unrealistic) Maxine Hardcore also be considered a devil and go to jail for producing porn like that? I doubt it. I even think she would be praised by some people for turning the tables. And a lot of them would be the same people that think Max Hardcore and his fans are probably closet serial rapists or murderers.

Apart from the underage thing I don't really see a moral problem in the stuff that Max Hardcore does. It surely isn't my cup of tea (I would prefer the female Max Hardcore :1orglaugh) but suggesting things like chopping off his dick and feeding it to fireants is just bullshit in my mind.

Long story short: This vote is inadequate because it lacks the neutral option. In my mind Max Hardcore is neither a sinner nor a saint.

 

[Rey C.]

What if there was a female version of Max Hardcore? An older woman with a production company that released movies with all that action that is going on in the Max Hardcore scenes but just reversed.

Take young looking, inexperienced men, portray them as underaged boys (or leave it to question like in a lot of the milf-themed-movies), and have a female performer fuck the shit out of them, pee on them, fuck them with a strapon if their unit goes limp after a while, put the strapon in their throat until they throw up, beat and choke them, spit on them...etc.

There are even several femdom-websites that have content like that, take meninpain or clubdom as an example. Here in Europe (which is a different situation of course) we have websites and movies that are even "worse". Nobody cares.

But would this (highly unrealistic) Maxine Hardcore also be considered a devil and go to jail for producing porn like that? I doubt it. I even think she would be praised by some people for turning the tables. And a lot of them would be the same people that think Max Hardcore and his fans are probably closet serial rapists or murderers.

Apart from the underage thing I don't really see a moral problem in the stuff that Max Hardcore does. It surely isn't my cup of tea (I would prefer the female Max Hardcore :1orglaugh) but suggesting things like chopping off his dick and feeding it to fireants is just bullshit in my mind.

Long story short: This vote is inadequate because it lacks the neutral option. In my mind Max Hardcore is neither a sinner nor a saint.

You are absolutely correct. :thumbsup: In addition to the sites that you mentioned, there are also sites that deal with mother/son, aunt/nephew fantasies. I'd be afraid to ask (or see) what sorts of sites come out of Eastern Europe. There was (is?) a site which focused on teen and twenty something girls approaching random men on the street and kicking or kneeing them in the groin. I don't know if that was real, or more like Bang Bus, and they used actors - no idea. But I never heard anything about that site's owners being prosecuted for anything. And I've since seen another site much like it called Serial Ballbusters. Do you think a site that focused on men attacking random women on the street wouldn't be prosecuted? Of course it would be. One site that focused on nothing more than random upskirt shots (real or staged, I don't know... didn't seem to matter) was forced to be taken down.

Thats why I also agree with you that this big deal about Max Hardcore is pretty much bullshit. Sinner or saint? Puuulease. He's a POS, but where he stands relative to all the other pieces of shit in this world is not for me to decide. Like the world is ever that black and white. IMO, whenever there is selective prosecution, that's a clear sign that the situation is at least partially bullshit. I don't have any use for Max. I don't care for his material. So I don't watch it. When Mistress Cheyenne (or whatever her name is) gets prosecuted for staging castrations and penis removals, then maybe I'll say that the bullshit factor is lessened. But we all know that's not going to happen, because the general standards applied to female dom sites is different than the ones applied to male dom sites. But my position remains: what her and the actors that work with her do, is their business. What Max and the actresses that work for him or people like him do, is their business. I don't care for her and her stuff, or Max and his stuff - so the fix is... I don't watch it. Problem solved. So easy. So simple.

 

[Will E Worm]

There are even several femdom-websites that have content like that, take meninpain or clubdom as an example. Here in Europe (which is a different situation of course) we have websites and movies that are even "worse". Nobody cares.

Exactly, he must be bad because Max is a white male.

It's the same thing when female teachers are accused of having student "lovers."

It's hypocritical and needs to stop.