As I stated earlier in this thread. If his religion is not germane, then neither should an evangelical's who falls from grace be either.
Martin Luther King Jr. Remembered
- Thread starter maildude
- Start date
As I stated earlier in this thread. If his religion is not germane, then neither should an evangelical's who falls from grace be either.
bump
Translation: This crap about MLK being a man of God has really created a hole in my secular/liberal Universe and what we really need is a MLK thread-lite that asks what his legacy means to you as long as you don't answer anything about the "Baby Jesus.
Philbert
Banned
Really...do you even know what you are trying to say?
And quoting an "intellectual philosopher" doesn't mean a thing if, as in your case, you don't have a clue what he means. Since Karl is way older than me his "yesteryear fancy phrases" must really leave you dazed and confused.:rofl2:
ugh...
^motive of threadshit; end thread^
"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
JayJohn85
Banned
Its actually quite enclosed and self contained but if you cant wrap your head around that quote, thats your problem. Anyway I am tired of arguing with you. Obviously this means your right and I am a pussy backing off you can construe whatever the fuck you want from it.
maildude
Postal Paranoiac
Jag with the goal!!:bowdown:
Philbert
Banned
That'll do...:thumbsup:
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
My dad can beat up your dad.
Ace Bandage
The one and only.
Yes, Tinker to Evers to Chance... double play! Wrap this thread up and move on. It's completely degenerated into a pissing contest at this point.
This is the second time you've felt the need to bring up some metaphorical evangelical who falls from grace. Every time you've mentioned it I always think of Ted Haggard, whether you were talking about him personally is neither here nor there really. But if this is the kind of person you're talking about then that claim is absolutely ridiculous. The outright hypocritical nature of his "fall from grace" (as you put it) was obviously going to draw fire. Preaching against the homosexual lifestyle as somehow sinful and that those who engage in such actions were bound for hell and then being caught engaging in those acts whilst still believing every word he ever preached to his audience. You think these actions aren't something to be commented on? Surely the man's actions and faith both come into play here? I'm sure you'll tell me how they don't.
But as I said previously this is so far removed from what we're actually discussing that it was a waste of time to even type the above paragraph out. But I have time, so what can you do. :dunno:
Okay, back on topic:
We've already agreed previously that MLK drew great strength from his faith and that it also inspired his actions and I'm sure I and every atheist here can accept that claim (was it ever in doubt?). But as I pointed out previously it is his actions whilst alive that are his legacy and from what I can tell no one in this entire thread has commented on his faith prior to you bringing it up. That's not to say it was forgotten, just that he achieved far greater things whilst alive than being just a preacher and it is this that people choose to respect. I'm sure that goes for the faithful and the not.
You almost make it sound as if it should anger atheists because others have faith? Especially when people choose to do great things and garner a lot of credit for those actions. I would ask why this is?
Sorry BB. I really intended to bow out of this discussion. All my comments have been discussed ad nauseum. I was really talking about Swaggart, Haggard and Bakker as well as the gaffes that Pat Robertson makes time to time. It's a point we will never agree on.
I look forward to a humorous post from you in the near future.
Philbert
Banned
Maybe it seems a bit contradictory to express a specific disdain towards those who profess a faith in a God, pointing out how stupid a belief in an "invisible unproven" deity is, how unintelligent those who do so are, and on and on expressing a specific correlation between one's intelligence and quality as a person and how devout a religious belief you entertain. Yourself and Mrs Grumpy are outspoken on this subject, and have left no question in anyone's mind the lack of respect you hold for religious people. And here ya'll are waxing eloquent in your praise for someone who fits exactly your criteria for foolishness, ignorance, fairytale belief, etc...in short, someone who you previously dissed and disrespected for their foolish beliefs.
It seems like a "bandwagon" thing, or an admission that your theory of less than sharp people believing in a Supreme being is at best conditional depending on what thread you are in.
The theory that a belief in a God is what gave the Rev.Dr.King the courage and motivation he had, to do what he believed needed to be endured and accomplished to achieve his goal of equality for all, mirrors Mother Theresa's devout belief in God and his plan for her. Her actions were based on a devout religious belief and can't be separated from her activities on behalf of the poor of Calcutta. She was no less honored for her efforts, but she was totally religious, and fit all the criteria ya'll have set forth to be silly, foolish believers in fairy tales, and not to be taken seriously.
Maybe that's why we believe there is no separation of faith and action, and those who dismiss the religious and sincere believers are not truly honest, if they can wax eloquent in praise for Rev.Dr. King and pretend he is not the epitome of the truly religious. You know, those silly fairy tale believers and invisible spirit talkers to, etc?
I could be wrong...just seems like trying to separate the reason from the action and claim they're 2 different things.
I'll admit that I harbour pretty strong feelings towards religion and to some extent the religious - depending on how their faith is promoted to the wider populace. But again I have to ask why faith has anything to do with it? It seems to me that we're creating a false dichotomy here. Just because I lack faith why is it a problem for me to show respect to someone who has? His faith wasn't even on my mind the first time I posted in this thread.
I may not believe in what he, or Gandhi or anyone else who had faith and fought to create a better environment for themselves and the wider community. I may even hold what some might deem a disrespectful view of their beliefs are based upon; but my own beliefs do no at all get in the way of the respect I hold for what they achieved whilst alive whether faith driven or not. As I've said on a number of occasions in this thread it is his actions that are his lasting legacy to the majority not his faith. Even though his faith may have been a huge part of who he was that isn't what he'll be remembered for. It'll be for the ideas he put forward (amongst the many others involved) and the promotion of equality. I don't know how anyone could put religion or lack there of in front of his actions and dismiss them because of it. If his actions can't be respected I don't know whose can?
I certainly didn't bring religion into this debate, and I believe it was wrong to do so (as the previous pages have shown). But as a person who does not hold faith in the supernatural I can take his actions at face value and still hold respect for them - even if that is problematic to some. If others choose to believe there was something else at play at the time, then that's there own judgement and they're completely free to do so.
meesterperfect
Hiliary 2020
Martin L. King (January 15, 1929 – April 4, 1968) was a Christian baptist minister and an activist and leader for civil rights for blacks in the USA
January 15th is a federal holiday in the U.S. in his memory.
January 15th is a federal holiday in the U.S. in his memory.
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
...who dat?
I can not speak for any other atheists or agnostics, we are the most diverse group on the planet, not even as unified as much as those who dislike green vegetables. I will say though, that those with whom I have discussed religion at length almost universally do not see it as in any way related to intelligence. Indeed some of the most widely regarded minds (I'm thinking Newton here is the best example) were devout in their beliefs. If there was a correllation between belief, lack of belief and intelligence, then it would have been clearly demonstrated that the former soviet block was undoubtedly smarter. Obviously this is not he case.
So, what is belief? I certainly have some experience of it, whatever it is. Not too surprisingly for an atheist of my nationality and generation I had a religious upbringing. No kid was happier than I, singing away in the choir on a Sunday morning or joining in the lord's prayer on a school day. Eventually my balls, my voice and my enthusiam for the choir descended. Even during this period I would still have happily described myself as a christian.
The turning point for me came with my deeper education, firstly with sociology and psychology. From which I garnered a disrespect for organized religion. Prior to that I had thought of religion as bad only in a historical setting, the crusades the inquisition and so on. So religion was out, but this notion of "spirituality" remained. (I believe that this is probably the default position of most of the UK in relation to god.) Later on as I was becoming immersed in social theory I met and married an american anthropologist who did her field work in tribal societies in Kenya. I heard a lot of talk about cross cultural studies and belief systems. I ploughed my way through a mound of ethnographies and became familiar with the anthropologists, notably Ernest Gelner as he was local. As a result of hermeneutics (in a general not biblical sense) I came to view my own dwindling belief as an external construct as opposed to an internal reality.
Yet making the change from being an individual molded by a social construct that I had rejected was problematic. We are very strongly attached to our former selves. The best example of this would be when during this period my father took ill with a heart attack and I sat outside the ICU praying as hard as I could. All the time I was doing this I was aware that I was a complete hypocrite. Yet this is a typical scenario. (Not in any way to compare my own change to his, but Dan Barker in Godless, recounts that even now he can conjure up the way Jesus made him feel when he was a preacher and it is a very real experience. These days he works for the Freedom From Religion Foundation.
In the end though the arguments against god became overwhelming. Initially I was an agnostic or a tea party athiest and now I'm just an atheist. So I moved to the bible belt where there were a ready supply of people to piss off.
I have left open all possibilities to my children regarding religion. I tell them if they hear a call then they should answer it. I would say that it is the interaction of the church(es) with the young that I find the most troubling. That and the fact the representatives of "higher powers" are happy to award themselves all kinds of respect.
On the point of superiority over believers - well Richard Dawkins toyed with the notion of atheists calling themselves "Brights." I hope I have shown that I do not consider myself to be of this mindset. I'm no smarter now than I was when I acknowledged some sort of spirit. I do wish that more people would read the counter arguments and not in church book groups as is usually the case with my friends and the God Delusion. I've yet to encounter anyone who is for less reason and rationality if they are out of earshot of their cohorts.
So, what is belief? I certainly have some experience of it, whatever it is. Not too surprisingly for an atheist of my nationality and generation I had a religious upbringing. No kid was happier than I, singing away in the choir on a Sunday morning or joining in the lord's prayer on a school day. Eventually my balls, my voice and my enthusiam for the choir descended. Even during this period I would still have happily described myself as a christian.
The turning point for me came with my deeper education, firstly with sociology and psychology. From which I garnered a disrespect for organized religion. Prior to that I had thought of religion as bad only in a historical setting, the crusades the inquisition and so on. So religion was out, but this notion of "spirituality" remained. (I believe that this is probably the default position of most of the UK in relation to god.) Later on as I was becoming immersed in social theory I met and married an american anthropologist who did her field work in tribal societies in Kenya. I heard a lot of talk about cross cultural studies and belief systems. I ploughed my way through a mound of ethnographies and became familiar with the anthropologists, notably Ernest Gelner as he was local. As a result of hermeneutics (in a general not biblical sense) I came to view my own dwindling belief as an external construct as opposed to an internal reality.
Yet making the change from being an individual molded by a social construct that I had rejected was problematic. We are very strongly attached to our former selves. The best example of this would be when during this period my father took ill with a heart attack and I sat outside the ICU praying as hard as I could. All the time I was doing this I was aware that I was a complete hypocrite. Yet this is a typical scenario. (Not in any way to compare my own change to his, but Dan Barker in Godless, recounts that even now he can conjure up the way Jesus made him feel when he was a preacher and it is a very real experience. These days he works for the Freedom From Religion Foundation.
In the end though the arguments against god became overwhelming. Initially I was an agnostic or a tea party athiest and now I'm just an atheist. So I moved to the bible belt where there were a ready supply of people to piss off.
I have left open all possibilities to my children regarding religion. I tell them if they hear a call then they should answer it. I would say that it is the interaction of the church(es) with the young that I find the most troubling. That and the fact the representatives of "higher powers" are happy to award themselves all kinds of respect.
On the point of superiority over believers - well Richard Dawkins toyed with the notion of atheists calling themselves "Brights." I hope I have shown that I do not consider myself to be of this mindset. I'm no smarter now than I was when I acknowledged some sort of spirit. I do wish that more people would read the counter arguments and not in church book groups as is usually the case with my friends and the God Delusion. I've yet to encounter anyone who is for less reason and rationality if they are out of earshot of their cohorts.
MasterBaiterr
Banned
philbert is a mower0n:rofl:
meesterperfect
Hiliary 2020
let me be the first to say goodbye dude.
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