Of course not, they rarely do.
And as long as America unconditionally backs Israel, as far as innocent Palestinians are concerned, they never will.
Israeli Attacks Gaza Strip, Killing 200+
- Thread starter kaliforniacatio
- Start date
And as long as America unconditionally backs Israel, as far as innocent Palestinians are concerned, they never will.
And look what Israel did to Lebanon...attacked because of Hezbollah and ended up bombing the hell out of a country that's economy was growing with help from the West. Israel even bombed the UN building in Lebanon, but it was a mistake...? Even though the roof on the building has "U.N" in big letters on the outside so it doesn't get hit....So I guess Hezbollah must have been writing UN on everything to hide themselves....that sounds like an excuse Israel could have used, but they fest up to it.
:thumbsup:
I'm not pro-palestinian, neither pro-Israel. I'm against radicals, fundamentalists (as you are). But with the informations we have, you had valid and respectable reasons to support Israel - and i assume i have valid and respectable reasons to blame everyone in the conflict.
Pretty much everything you (and other pro-Israel posters) have said about Hamas and Palestinians responsability is true in my opinion. It's when i criticise Israel that some disagreements shows up. I have read many pro-Palestininans valid and respectable arguments being overlooked so far that shows, in my opinion, that Israel is also to blame for the situation.
Thats exactly what is lacking for Palestinians. A moderate, peace-looking, strong organisation that could be supported to change the fundamentalists mindset of their leaders. A Gandhi-like emerging leader.
I don't think the Palestinian mindset will change otherwise, and each time a ctitizen dies, the Hamas get stronger in Gaza.
I'm not against a tactical Intelligence war against Hamas, it might even become inevitable like Prof. Volupturay explained to bomb Gaza (but even then, i still disagree with the traditional warfare agaisnt terrorists for several reasons). Israel can help to create a favorable situation for the emerging moderate force in Gaza. Or a Gandhi-like emerging leader.
I'm maybe somewhat idealist regarding that. I'm aware that it will take maybe one, two or even three generations before something alike could happend.
But as long as it doesnt happend, as long as everyone involved in the conflict doesn't play it's role, the situation won't evolve and will stay as it is. And anything that helps to keep the situation as it is is the main purpose serving the Hamas fundamentalists leaders agenda.
In all honesty, i don't see what else can end the vicious circle in which palestinians and israelis are stuck...
FFS would anybody care too address my points about the other Arab states leaving the Palestinians hung out to dry? if surrounding states in the region cared and wanted to stop the conflict they would send aid and whatever the Palestinians needed, thisabout Israel cutting off, patrolling and barricading the border crossings and anywhere their is access to food, water, and medical supplies, is because of sanctions enforced by israel as a message to stop the suicide bombings and terrorist attacks.
Anybody that argues the reason all the border crossings are barricaded or not accessible to the Palestinians is by their own doings are very naive!
I understand and respect your opinions, MM.
As far as i understand the other Arab states in the area, i think their leaders see more advantages in a setting in Gaza that favorises the nurturing of Hamas suicidal-bombers. The palestinians themselves are buying the theory that it's Israel fault if they are starving - they don't blame other Arab states.
The Hamas also use the sanctions for their agenda. While i see why Israel took this way to deal with Hamas, i don't think Israel realise that this behavior isn't helping at all to end the cycle of violence. I don't think Isreal realise that this behavior helps more the Hamas than weakening it.
Israel have to do something, i think we are all agreeing on that. But what they are doing is turning against themselves. It serves more the Hamas propaganda than anything else. No?
Israel bombs Gaza into the night
Israeli air attacks on the Gaza Strip has resumed after a three-hour truce to allow in humanitarian aid, with border tunnels apparently the main target.
Nearly 700 Palestinian and 11 Israeli lives are said to have been lost since the offensive began 12 days ago.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7817044.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7815340.stm
Israeli air attacks on the Gaza Strip has resumed after a three-hour truce to allow in humanitarian aid, with border tunnels apparently the main target.
Nearly 700 Palestinian and 11 Israeli lives are said to have been lost since the offensive began 12 days ago.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7817044.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7815340.stm
Gaza doesn't match Israel military at all. Pretty much alike the last two wars in which USA fought in Kuweit and Iraq with the same death toll ratio.
What worries me most is the fact that Israel started the bombing 12 days ago. If they really had specific targets, it's hard to beleive they haven't reached them all after 12 days...
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guest111 - A huge thanks for all the links you are providing to this thread. Awesome contribution :thumbsup:
Israel resumes deadly Gaza attacks
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/20091812722995597.html
UN 'to convene assembly over Gaza'
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/01/2009180419321375.html
This is pretty messed up (below), hopefully you saw the other article.
UN: No fighters in targeted school
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/20091805410769377.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/20091812722995597.html
UN 'to convene assembly over Gaza'
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/01/2009180419321375.html
This is pretty messed up (below), hopefully you saw the other article.
UN: No fighters in targeted school
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/20091805410769377.html
Im qouting this, because if you want a different kinda viewpoint, or a different perspective. Then please listen to both of these programs... They are very interesting and not at all bias..
From UN: No fighters in targeted school
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...410769377.html
That's another example of the confusion ruling the battlefield... Who is right; who is wrong?
I hardly beleive Israel could bomb a school without evidence of it being used by the Hamas forces.
Personnally, i trust Isreal word on that. They have no reasons at all to bomb anything non-Hamas forces related. Regardless of what the UN or anyone else could say (even if i usually trust the UN more than anyone in such situation). I just don't beleive Isreal could act otherwise. Or maybe the Israel Intelligence had erronous info about the school?
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...410769377.html
That's another example of the confusion ruling the battlefield... Who is right; who is wrong?
I hardly beleive Israel could bomb a school without evidence of it being used by the Hamas forces.
Personnally, i trust Isreal word on that. They have no reasons at all to bomb anything non-Hamas forces related. Regardless of what the UN or anyone else could say (even if i usually trust the UN more than anyone in such situation). I just don't beleive Isreal could act otherwise. Or maybe the Israel Intelligence had erronous info about the school?
Btw, from what I can find; 17 Israelis have been killed by Gazan homemade rockets since 2001.
And it never mean that Israel should wait a few years, until the amount of the victims will increase up to more "appropriate" value. It is enough that Hamas have intention to kill Israeli civilians, and launch their rockets every day. In criminal law there is a "attempted homicide" term, when the murder was not commited due to reasons within and beyond the control of the person who had this intention. The same is here, and their crime is obvious.
People who live not far from Gaza are ready 24/7 to hide from this rockets in the bunkers.
Knowing bad quality of Quassams, palestinan figthers are trying to smuggle much more dangerous russian (originally invented in Russia, but now produced in many countries) Katyusha and Grad systems, which have much longer range (up to 20 kilometers, in opposite quassam range is about 3-4 km) and much more powerful explosion. They already have got a few in 2006, and do their best to smuggle more.
Understanding of this threat is one of the reasons for the current anti-hamas operation.
True.
Living in constant fear doesnt count as victims but it ruins lives of so many israelis... And motivated Isreal action.
Agreeing on action or not doesnt matter: the fact is that jamark statement is true in my opinion.
LBT you and I ordinarily agree on most issues, but your (imo) overly simplistic comparative body counts are leaving me cold. They don't account for the intense stress of living under the constant threat (and reality) of attack. They don't account for Hamas' tactics, which intentionally expose civilians. Thus they don't account for the disregard Hamas has for the lives of the people they govern. They could readily bring an end to this tragedy, but they choose not to.. You actually have more concern for dead Palestinians than does Hamas.
What would you suggest Isreal do; counter by taking only 17 verifiable Palestinian lives in return, thinking that somehow that will stop Hamas' incessant aggression, or change Hamas' unyielding committment to the eradication of Isreal?
I'm reminded of the line Richard Dreyfus used in "Jaws" to describe sharks: "All they do is swim, and eat, and make little sharks". Well in that same vein all Hamas does is propogate hate and violence. They have no long term interest in a negotiated settlement. They do not want peace. They have been abundantly clear about that.
It's almost as if....they have no specific targets at all. They're just, dropping bombs, terrorizing if you will. Or is that to deep for some to see?
Marlo Manson
Hello Sexy girl how your Toes doing?
Don't flatter yourself! I am sure the israeli's take no pleasure in having to kill innocent civilians caught in a unescapable hell because (HAMAS) doesn't even value its own citizens lives! or is that to deep for most to see?
:dunno:
You are right, statistics don't provide the whole picture, and Israelis are living under threat of attack but
Isn't it also overly simplistic to forget that Israel is an occupier?
would you have preferred...
Death toll so far:
Palestinians killed: 658 - and many others living under intense stress and the constant threat (and reality) of attack
Israelis killed: 10 (7 soldiers of which 4 died from friendly fire) - and many others living under intense stress and the constant threat (and reality) of attack
- Return to pre-1967 borders? (but they "choose not to"?)
- Limit restrictive access to resources like water, food, and medical supplies so that "new" Hamas members are not generated.
- Limit retaliatory action to less than 7000% so that "new" Hamas members are not generated.
While, like most other members of this board, I don't condone the actions of Hamas , I don't think this type of language is productive.
Sociologists widely recognize this type of comment as an attempt to dehumanize a group of people.
It was used against the Jews in Nazi propaganda equating them with fleas "sucking the blood of useful beings" and against the Tutsis in Rwanda equating them with cockroaches a "worthless vermin to be exterminated."
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The director of the human rights organization, African Rights, Rakiya Omaar, was following the events from northern Rwanda.
"In Rwanda they referred to Tutsis as cockroaches," explains Omaar. "They were not human beings. This is very important to understand, [there are] very close parallels to what happened in Hitler's Germany. [They said,] 'Don't worry, you're not killing humans like you. You are killing some vermin that belongs under your shoe. You're killing cockroaches.'"
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http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/rwanda/segc2.html
Main point: Israel shares some responsibility in this conflict. Don't you agree?
Just a question...
As far as i know, palestinians tired of the whole mess they live in cannot ask to be refugees in other countries, right?
I mean, i have no clue regarding this issue, but i doubt that any country could open it's door to palestinians in fear that a Hamas terrorist member could slip in...
Do someone knows if any country offers to palestinians to become refugee? Maybe other Islamic states?
As far as i know, palestinians tired of the whole mess they live in cannot ask to be refugees in other countries, right?
I mean, i have no clue regarding this issue, but i doubt that any country could open it's door to palestinians in fear that a Hamas terrorist member could slip in...
Do someone knows if any country offers to palestinians to become refugee? Maybe other Islamic states?
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