Guns in the USA - something I read in the papers today

[RogueAlan]

Like Rougneck's banner.
for GENERATIONS Americans have had guns in their homes, often loaded & by the front door, WITHOUT the number of 'accidental' or intentional shootings we see today.

While they'll deny it, you can credit the liberal left who want to teach condom use to 4th graders but deny hunter/ gun safety to any student, a culture where PC means you cannot talk about things that 'might offend people' like firearms & firearm safety, and media content to use guns (almost as much as sex) to sell their product, all while whining about how dangerous firearms are yada yada yada...

Data can be massaged to say anything, but since Kansas adopted a concealed carry law there has NOT been a wave of 'OK Corral' street shoot outs... no kids have shot their friend while showing off dad's gun, & no legally carrying citizen has been killed by a police officer. Other states have generated numbers that show a decrease in violent crime when legal carry is allowed.

Education, training/ experience, and supervision are crucial to safe use of anything... especially where there is real risk of injury or death... America followed a different course from Europe where drinking and driving are at issue, choosing to 'protect' children and according to some increasing the liklihood of drinking & driving drunk once people who have been driving for 5 or 6 years add alcohol to the equation. But I see no one suggesting we not allow anyone to drive or return to prohibition.

As to the Guardian's spin... 'spiraling increase' Puhleeze! EVery Isreali citizen receives training & a Galil assault rifle, but there is not the 'rash' of murder & gun crime that is claimed associated with gun ownership. At the other end of the spectrum, look at Mogandishu or Lebanon or 'Palestine' where idiots feel part of celebration is the mandatory firing of their automatic assault rifles into the air.

Where America got into trouble with Iraq was in failing to institute or maintain sufficiently Martial Law after the war... Imagine Japan or Germany after the war with every able body soldier allowed to keep his or her firearms... You would think the politicians would have learned... the Civil War was a problem afterwards because of the lack of gun control in the period immediately following. But today's American politicians, anyway, are only concerned with APPEARING in control & concerned instead of looking at problems seriously & responding realistically...

wow... i'll climb down off of this Ivory crate, now.

 

[Member2019]

Minorities have been repressed the most by one little phrase ...

Minorities have been repressed all over the world by one little phrase ... "The Will of the People."

That's why the US has a Constitution and has an Amendment process so a simple majority cannot change what a super-majority decided before them without the same due process and super-majority. This includes trying to prevent a simple majority of states to override a minority -- something that became an issue and resulted in our Civil War.

When the US Constitution was written a super-majority of states would not accept it until a Bill of Rights was drafted. From just over 100 terms, 10 were decided upon. To date, no super-majority of the people have gone against those 10 Amendments, although the government has attempted to restrict them.

To change a vote by a super-majority, you have to over-ride it with a super-majority. It's as simple as that.

Otherwise, simple majority rule has destroyed more minorities than anything else. And once that minority is removed, the majority things the problem is solved. If ignorance is the solution, then I'm definitely part of the problem, and definitely a minority.

American civics 101, and the reason why our nation continues to have its checks'n balances, where others have failed.

Lastly, if you think "The Will of the People" is actually implemented by representatives, then you're just naive. That's why we have 3 parts of our government "at war" with each other at any time. Because they keep each other "in check."

The closest we'll ever get to true "The Will of the People" was what Ross Perot suggested, electronic town hall meetings. Unfortunately, it still fails the 1 person, 1 vote, as some minorities won't have access. And it doesn't prevent politicians from wording things and porking legislation with other things either.

 

[ChefChiTown]

It's unfortunate that more people don't see what is happening to this country. Here's the deal: We elliminate all these (40 million) illegals, and it goes like this: The RICH WON'T GET SO RICH...they'll be forced to pay US (Yes, us, U.S. citizens) MORE. Simple!

This is something I posted in another thread...

A big part of my family works for the INS/Department of Homeland Security. There are a lot of issues that the general public is not aware of when it comes to illegal immigration. I won't waste your time, as I could go on for hours and hours about the unknown facts in regards to illegal immigrants and how they effect the U.S. and it's citizens.

I do agree with you that it is unfortunate that more people don't see what is happening to this country. It's especially unfortunate when people don't realize that there is a difference between legal and illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants are causing more harm than good to the US and it's legal citizens.

Back to the subject at hand though...

Like Rougneck's banner.
for GENERATIONS Americans have had guns in their homes, often loaded & by the front door, WITHOUT the number of 'accidental' or intentional shootings we see today.

Education, training/ experience, and supervision are crucial to safe use of anything... especially where there is real risk of injury or death... America followed a different course from Europe where drinking and driving are at issue, choosing to 'protect' children and according to some increasing the liklihood of drinking & driving drunk once people who have been driving for 5 or 6 years add alcohol to the equation. But I see no one suggesting we not allow anyone to drive or return to prohibition.

Good points.

IMO, guns are a scapegoat. There are plenty of other dangerous things that people own/do that cause a large amount of injuries and deaths...but hardly anything is done about it. Personally, I think it's just another example of people not taking responsibility for their own actions.

My dad keeps a shotgun in his attic and a handgun in his bedroom. Neither of those guns has ever been fired before.

My grandfather had a rather large rifle collection in his attic. None of those guns has ever been fired before.

My cousin, who is on the United States Border Patrol, has a substantially large amount of firearms in his house. The only one that has ever been fired is the rifle he uses for killing the pigs on his ranch.

All of the guns I have mentioned are kept behind locked doors. It is literally impossible for children to get their hands on any of these guns. None of these guns have ever been involved in an accident and none of these guns have been involved in a human's death. Why? Because the people who own the guns are responsible.

Whoever said "Guns don't kill people...I kill people" is the most honest person in the history of mankind.

 

[Member2019]

No, it requires a SUPER-majority (NOT a simple one)

It begins and ends exactly where a majority of the population want it to.
You are a democracy after all.

No, we are a Democratic-Republic with a Constitution.
And the right to bear arms is part of the Constitution.

The Constitution can only be changed by a super-majority, not a simple one.
And there is a due process to amend the Constitution (which includes repealing or clarifying portions of it).

Otherwise our Constitution would be worthless if it was allowed to be ignore.
People regularly ignore it, and they are put in their place by the other parts of the government in due process.

I don't expect non-Americans to understand this, but American citizens must.
It's not optional, because it's the foundation of why your ass isn't in jail right now, or we're not in anarchy.

Also a fact that missed is that while the base Articles of the Constitution was written by state representatives at the federal level,
the first 10 Amendments were written by the people and their local states.
The super-majority of states would not accept the Constitution until such a Bill of Rights were drafted, and I'm glad they didn't.

 

[titsrock]

Even though this thread is about guns...

If we round up and depart the 40 million (why is it that that number continues to increase every month..in Nov06..it was assumed that it was 12mill-20mill..it's a statistical impossibility that that number has increased roughly 1mill a month)..

Even if we round up the 40 million and "get rid of them"...then Unions will have to absorb the newly-opened job availability. Unions will become leading labor pools for Fast Food and Landscaping as well as taking back/strengthening their traditional farming and manufacturing positions.

So let's assume that the Labor issue become solved. Companies do follow this theory and pay more wages to "legal labor." Will we all be able to afford $8 Big Macs? Companies simply pass costs on to consumers. How do we prevent the economic collapse that "removing illegals" will bring?

 

[ninetysixcavy]

Peter...

Sometimes I don't respond cause (a) I'm really busy or (b) it's the same argument over and over - not "you take this too seriously" but "there are statistics that are made up to support both sides of the argument, with every political issue, so what's the point going back and forth on them again and again". They're all the same. Either they support the liberal view or the conservative view. Neither one can disprove the other. They just contradict each other again and again and maintain the status quo.

Sorry, but you have yet to tell me why that aforementioned community (murder and crime free) should forfeit their right to bear arms. Your'e not answering the question.

Immigrants are the backbone of America cause without them, our economy would be more shaky. Nobody else will do the work they do for the prices they do it for. They are the chattle and we reap the benefits. And we are the chattle for the rich. That is life. But it shouldn't have to be.

View post 80, second paragraph I posted, in addition to all the other links I provided for you in posts 61 and 69. Here, I'll post them for you again:

Immigration Is Hurting The U.S. Worker
Low Paid American workers have borne the heaviest impact of immigration

25 Million Less-Educated Americans Are Jobless While 7 Million Illegal Aliens Have Jobs

MYTH: Immigrants do the Jobs Americans Won't do

This is something I posted in another thread...

I've posted something similar to this in many other threads. Consider me an anti-immigration activist. Well, not really, but I do routinely write my Senator's and partake in rallies, etc. Only a lamb can't see what is happening with the current immirgation fiasco. It's of epic proportions.

I do agree with you that it is unfortunate that more people don't see what is happening to this country. It's especially unfortunate when people don't realize that there is a difference between legal and illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants are causing more harm than good to the US and it's legal citizens.
.

I somewhat agree. I wouldn't be entirely opposed to letting a very small number of immigrants into the country, but the fact that our state is still wide open following 9/11 and that we let people in at the rate which we do is astounding to me. But moreover, what pisses me off more is that the employment scene is preposterous. I kid you not when I say it's hard to find a real, livable wage. This argument that we can't do it without the cheap labor is even further preposterous. It's a down right, blatant LIE. SEE AGAIN: MYTH: Immigrants do the Jobs Americans Won't do

 

[ChefChiTown]

If we round up and depart the 40 million (why is it that that number continues to increase every month..in Nov06..it was assumed that it was 12mill-20mill..it's a statistical impossibility that that number has increased roughly 1mill a month)...

1 million is a bit excessive, but you would still be surprised how many illegal immigrants make it into the U.S. each day/week/month/year.

We don't have the man power to keep the numbers down at the current time. The station my cousin is in charge of has 8 agents...EIGHT agents...to guard a chunk of the border which is over 20 miles long. Yes, they capture a lot of potential illegal immigrants trying to cross the border, but a lot of them actually get through due to the lack of protection our country is willing to finance.

 

[bmandesign]

I have allot of dealings with police officers, most of them feel that a city in which legalized carry is allowed that the crime records drop (there are numbers to back that also, and these numbers are from the FBI, not the far left wing media). Most officers support concealed carry laws legalizing the right to carry a handgun. The US does not need new gun laws, they need to enforce the ones they already have, and get ride of some of the stupid ones.

Like your freedom of speech? Then protect the second amendment

 

[McRocket]

Re: No, it requires a SUPER-majority (NOT a simple one)

No, we are a Democratic-Republic with a Constitution.
And the right to bear arms is part of the Constitution.

The Constitution can only be changed by a super-majority, not a simple one.
And there is a due process to amend the Constitution (which includes repealing or clarifying portions of it).

Fine. So if a 'super-majority' vote to change the constitution; then it could be changed.

Including the 2'nd Amendment.

 

[McRocket]

Re: Minorities have been repressed the most by one little phrase ...

The closest we'll ever get to true "The Will of the People" was what Ross Perot suggested, electronic town hall meetings. Unfortunately, it still fails the 1 person, 1 vote, as some minorities won't have access. And it doesn't prevent politicians from wording things and porking legislation with other things either.

1 person, 1 vote gives far more power to minorities then your current system does.

However, this is not the proper thread for that discussion.

 

[bodie54]

1 person, 1 vote gives far more power to minorities then your current system does.

Actually no, McR. While that might seem to follow in theory, it wouldn't be so in practice.

 

[McRocket]

Actually no, McR. While that might seem to follow in theory, it wouldn't be so in practice.

I disagree. But this is not the thread for that discussion, IMO.

 

[ninetysixcavy]

1 million is a bit excessive, but you would still be surprised how many illegal immigrants make it into the U.S. each day/week/month/year.
.

Hello...who's been giving us these statistcs to begin with? The US government; the most powerful criminal organization on the planet. Take it with a grain of salt. All you have to do is go into an inner-city Wal-Mart and see what language is spoken and it doesn't take a scientist to figure there is way more illegal aliens than 20 million in the country.

I have allot of dealings with police officers, most of them feel that a city in which legalized carry is allowed that the crime records drop (there are numbers to back that also, and these numbers are from the FBI, not the far left wing media). Most officers support concealed carry laws legalizing the right to carry a handgun. The US does not need new gun laws, they need to enforce the ones they already have, and get ride of some of the stupid ones.

Like your freedom of speech? Then protect the second amendment

That's part of the argument you never hear. I know cops too, and more of them than you can imagine are for law-abiding citizens to have the right to own firearms. It does fight criime.

Fine. So if a 'super-majority' vote to change the constitution; then it could be changed.
.

Too many incompetents in the US that don't even have a college education, let alone a high school diploma, have the right to vote. If you can't comprehend all the FACTS that were provided in this little thread in relation to guns, much less a book or other scholarly source that point out all the reasons, i.e. a crime free community that is loaded with guns, for example, why should you have the right to vote on the issue of gun ownership?

 

[Peter Gazinya]

Immigrants are the backbone of America cause without them, our economy would be more shaky.

"More shaky? I don't know if you keep up with current events but right now our economy is extremely "shaky". The stock market is 1,000 points off it's high of only several weeks ago, gas is over $3 a gallon, the value of the dollar is at an all time low, housing prices are falling in 16 of the country's 20 largest markets, and the mortgage industry is in crisis, with really no end in sight. How much more shaky could our economy be?

"Nobody else will do the work they do for the prices they do it for. They are the chattle and we reap the benefits. And we are the chattle for the rich.

Wait a minute, who is the chattle? Who reaps what benefits? what the fuck are you talking about? And, if nobody will do the work for the price they do it for, who's to blame for that? Is it them, for undercutting the market and selling to the lowest bidder? Is the guy who hired them and offered wages that no American could support himself on, lest he lower him(her)self to 3rd world living conditions? or do we blame our swiss cheese border patrol? Either way, I still fail to see how illegal immigrants stabilize our economy. I'd love to hear your explanation.

And another thing, I'm sick of people stating the that US is "the richest country in the world". We are NOT the richest country in the world, far from it actually. We usually fall somewhere between 5 - 10 on the list, depending on year and exactly how it's measured

I don't think the government should have ANY power except to exercise the will of the people and I think the majority of the people should have the right to ban ANYTHING that they think is making their lives miserable, and if that be guns, then so be it. There should be a vote, every few years, to make sure people still want these tools of convenient killing all over the place, or not.

Fox

Fine. But there better be a vote on swimming pools too then. And we should vote on thread hi-jackers, you and I have done enough! Have a good day.

 

[Imagine]

Too many incompetents in the US that don't even have a college education, let alone a high school diploma, have the right to vote. If you can't comprehend all the FACTS that were provided in this little thread in relation to guns, much less a book or other scholarly source that point out all the reasons, i.e. a crime free community that is loaded with guns, for example, why should you have the right to vote on the issue of gun ownership?

That's democracy for you. One man, one vote. It's not great, but it produces a fairly acceptable average. The only decent alternative is the enlightened despot. Still one man, one vote; he is the man so he has the vote (Pratchett). Unfortunately, they are hard to find and tend not to last.

 

[McRocket]

between 5 - 10 on the list[/URL], depending on year and exactly how it's measured.

Richest country in the World often refers to total GDP. Richest people in the World often refers to GDP per person.

In terms of total GDP, America is by far the richest country in the World (according to the CIA World Fact Book).

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html

 

[Peter Gazinya]

Richest country in the World often refers to total GDP. Richest people in the World often refers to GDP per person.

In terms of total GDP, America is by far the richest country in the World (according to the CIA World Fact Book).

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html

I know that McR, but aggregate GDP does not mean we have wads of cash to throw around. Let me ask you this, who has more disposable income; the guy with $1,100,000 and six kids to send through college or the guy with $1,000,000 and one kid to send through college? We are not one big fat happy pile of people in the US. For every one "rich" guy with a 5,000 square foot house, a Mercedes, and a Suburban, there's 20 white trash shitheads living in trailers, listening to John Cougar Mellencamp records, fucking their sisters, and eating mayonnaise sandwiches. With the exception of a privileged few, we are broke Mc, we are fucking brooooke. Yeah, there's some well to do mother fuckers in NYC, Chicago, LA, Atlanta, SF, etc. but the 40 flyover states are just chock full of nothing. Nothing but a whole lot of people doing fucking nothing.

 

[McRocket]

I know that McR, but aggregate GDP does not mean we have wads of cash to throw around. Let me ask you this, who has more disposable income; the guy with $1,100,000 and six kids to send through college or the guy with $1,000,000 and one kid to send through college? We are not one big fat happy pile of people in the US. For every one "rich" guy with a 5,000 square foot house, a Mercedes, and a Suburban, there's 20 white trash shitheads living in trailers, listening to John Cougar Mellencamp records, fucking their sisters, and eating mayonnaise sandwiches. With the exception of a privileged few, we are broke Mc, we are fucking brooooke. Yeah, there's some well to do mother fuckers in NYC, Chicago, LA, Atlanta, SF, etc. but the 40 flyover states are just chock full of nothing. Nothing but a whole lot of people doing fucking nothing.

Then if you are right, then maybe some changes need to be made (and I am not just typing about gun laws). And they are not going to be made sitting here in FreeOnes.

Your a bright, (rather angry) fellow with a good vocabulary. Do something about it - if you can.

 

[titsrock]

Invade top gas producing nation, control 30% more of the world's tapped oil, drive price up. The more you control the closer you are to monopoly. That was 50% of the reason for the Iraq invasion. Our government and their oil baron sugar daddies SET the oil prices. This invasion was sponsored by Exxxon and brought to you by Chevron.

When the whispers about "war for oil" started in 2004...I thought it meant that we invaded Iraq to steal their oil in order to ENSURE A LOW MARKET PRICE so that our economy could keep pace with India/China....

I'm starting to think the quoted text, however absurd it may be, is actually correct. If we believe Dubya and the Wackoes...that the "surge is working" we should see "stabilization" in the area and we should be seeing oil prices rolling back.

Clearly, George Bush and Dick Cheney are intending to personally profit off of this war and part of their profiteering is in high oil prices...

I don't believe that "roaring Euro/Chinese" economies are keeping demand high. China's economy was growing faster 6 years ago...6 years ago...Europe was in the crapper..economically speaking...

Fox...you're wrong about the U.S. economy. It's circling the drain and we're on our way to recession....

 

[georges]

I think most but definitely not all of the points raised by Michael Moore in Bowling For Columbine still hold true to this day. (Although, I think the fat man's approach is a little too cutting-edge from a responsible journalistic point of view, he attacks his interviewees) Check that movie out. Main point - TOO MANY GUNS IN AMERICA. Don't blame the media for brainwashing the kids, you can't change 'em anyway. Don't blame parents, don't blame politicians, you can't change 'em either. Just impose tougher laws on guns, keep it on a leash and continue to work on it until you suffocate it. Yeah, yeah, a lot of people will die before things eventually work out. But what are you gonna do? Search every home? An instant solution is impossible. Just like the war in Iraq, it'll take a lot of time, a lot of lives, and a lot of patience from the bystanders - the people, the nations, who are not affected by these monstrosities our society and culture has created, to work towards changes. I've said it before: I believe that man can right his wrongs in due time. It won't be too late. Maybe not in our lifetime... But don't be selfish now.

Michael the Fat Pig Moore just took the case of two crazy students and then blamed the whole gun ownership system. USAF, US NAVY, USMC, police officers, private detective and law enforcement personnel have the right to own and bear these guns wether they are class 2 or class 3 weapons. The law abiding citizens have the right to buy these guns (class 2 and class 3 made before 1986) for their home protection and because they like target shooting. The gun isn't responsible of the murder, it is the guy/woman who press the trigger who is to blame. You will never change a thing or a habit that is more 230 years old, never. Canada has tough gun laws but it didn't avoid the murder of more than 600 people on the Highway of Tears. Resignation and failure in whatever you do aren't an option.