Maybe, but if it were up to me I wouldn't pick him above Bradshaw, Aikman, Elway, Marino, Montana, Namath, Young, Unitas, or Brady. I think I'd also prefer Jurgensen and Tarkenton, and possibly even Fouts, Griese, and Staubach.
Dungy retires after seven seasons in Indianapolis
- Thread starter young_guns
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Maybe, but if it were up to me I wouldn't pick him above Bradshaw, Aikman, Elway, Marino, Montana, Namath, Young, Unitas, or Brady. I think I'd also prefer Jurgensen and Tarkenton, and possibly even Fouts, Griese, and Staubach.
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
Your definition and defense of the term "great" (in respect to NFL coaches) is pretty condradictory.
The West Coast offense is an adaptation of collegiate plays that have been "tamed down" to work better for the NFL. Yet, you discredit Tony Dungy for tweaking an already existing system to work better, even though that's exactly what Bill Walsh did? :dunno:
What's with the "could have"...??? If you really think that "could haves" merit any sort of credit, then I'll just say that Tony Dungy "could have" won another Super Bowl if he didn't leave the Buccaneers, as proved by Jon Gruden. You say that Jimmy Johnson is great, even though Tony Dungy "could have" won another Super Bowl if he stayed with the Buccaneers for another year.
You are handicapping Tony Dungy's success by claiming that he had a great offense. Yet, you say that Bill Walsh and Jimmy Johnson are great coaches, even though they had, arguably, better offenses than Tony Dungy's.
Seriously, look at some of the players from the offensive roster of Bill Walsh's 49ers...
Joe Montana
Roger Craig
Brent Jones
Jerry Rice
John Taylor
Tom Rathman
Harris Barton
Jessie Sapolu
Now, look at some of the players from the offensive roster of Jimmy Johnson's Cowboys...
Troy Aikman
Emmitt Smith
Daryl Johnston
Michael Irvin
Jay Novacek
Nate Newton
Mark Stepnoski
Erik Williams
Compare that to some of the players from the offensive roster of Tony Dungy's Colts...
Peyton Manning
Edgerrin James
Marvin Harrison
Dallas Clark
Reggie Wayne
Jeff Saturday
Brandon Stokley
...they all seem pretty solid to me, yet, you discredit Tony Dungy somehow because of it? :dunno:
...except for create one of the most consistent run-powered offenses to have ever existed, molding no-name running backs into 1,000+ rushers year in and year out. But, I guess you don't have to be great to turn nobodies into Pro Bowlers. :dunno:
Thank You Chef. I'll rep you later.:thumbsup:
i really dont care what people are saying to discredit this man...he's a winner...he's the true gentleman on this league...he did everything with class...as a colt fan, we'll miss coach dungy...
The part I don't get is the fact it seems like there are a lot of people out there that try and think of any excuse they can come up with to make Dungy out to be a lot worse than he was. It seems to happen with him more than any other coach I can remember off the top of my head. He might not be the greatest coach that ever existed, but I can't see how he isn't a solid hall of fame coach.
everyone wants to bash you, when your at the top
While I enjoy the debate, I do not enjoy your constant misrepresentation of my words.
#1. I'll give you. Walsh and Dungy were both successful in creating new schemes out of previous versions.
#2. With the could haves...It is very likely that JJ could have won another championship in Dallas because Barry Switzer did, just like Seifert in SF. On the other hand Dungy never won a championship in TB, so to say could have to that is a little bit of a stretch.
#3. The difference between Walsh, Johnson and Dungy is that Walsh and Johnson won multiple championships and could have won more had they stayed longer, as proved by their successors. Dungy on the other hand, only won one championship and went to the Conference Championship one other time. He has a sub-par winning percentage in the playoffs. That can not be said about any of the other coaches that we have discussed. Sorry, although I am in the minority, (on this board and from listening to sports talk radio) I do not believe that Tony Dungy is a great coach nor is he a hall of famer.
Playoff winning percentage is another absolutely bad way to judge a player, team, or coach. It's not quite as bad as Superbowl wins but it's pretty close. As far as evaluation it's close to being statistically meaningless. By the nature of the playoffs where you can only loose once and then your out it ether screws the percentage too low or too high for most people. It's not like the looser can come back next week or potentially win or loose their next three games like they can in the regular season. That's not even mentioning that teams face tougher opponents in the playoffs and it's easier for them to loose, and because it's like a small tournament a great amount of luck is involved. Even coaches that have been around a long time only have a small sample size of playoff appearances to judge them on. I could also point out how statistically it’s flawed because of situations where a coach can potentially be awful and not even make the playoffs for years because of it, but if all of a sudden if he’s gets a good team for a year or two and goes deep in them then he has a great winning percentage the rest of his life where all his awful years won’t even count in it because he never made it at all. At the same time somebody that’s good every year and just happens to get beat by other worthy teams might struggle to win 50% of their playoff games when they make the playoffs all the time though just happening to play in a time where there is a lot of good teams or because bad luck gets to them.
:thumbsup:
:hatsoff::glugglug:impdaddyYes indeed ChefChiTown...
Tony is another legend in NFL Coaching for a hot minute. And thats real talk on that one. Tampa Bay and Indy.And thats Real Talk homie....He def derserve my cheerz. 4 R.E.A.L.Z.
That's true. BUT when talking about potential Hall of Fame coaches, playoff winning percentage matters a lot, because all of those hypothetical scenarios that you bring up does not apply to them.
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
Ok, allow me to throw a hypothetical scenario at you, since you think playoff winning percentage matters so much...
Coach A
- Coaches in the NFL for 10 years
- Has a career regular season record of 123-37 (76.88%)
- Makes the playoffs in 10 out of 10 years (100% of the time)
- Has a career playoff record of 4-9 (30.77%)
- Has 1 Super Bowl win
- In the other 9 playoff appearances, he loses in the first round
Coach B
- Coaches in the NFL for 20 years
- Has a career regular season record of 128-192 (40%)
- Makes the playoffs in 2 out of 20 years (10% of the time)
- Has a career playoff record of 3-1 (75%)
- Has 1 Super Bowl win
- In the other playoff appearance, he loses in the first round
Both coaches have a similar amount of regular season victories.
Both coaches have 1 Super Bowl win.
In this hypothetical scenario, are you going to look at Coach B (who barely ever made the playoffs, but had a better playoff winning %) as a better coach?
:dunno:
lol. Dude you don't get it. Are any of the coaches we have discussed Coach B?
Records of all of the coaches:
Jimmy Johnson: 80-64 (Regular Season) 9-4 (Postseason) 6 appearances
Bill Walsh: 92-59 (Regular Season) 10-4 (Postseason) 7 appearances
Mike Holmgren: 161-111 (Regular Season) 13-11 (Postseason) 12 appearances
Bill Cowher: 149-90-1 (Regular Season) 12-9 (Postseason) 10 appearances
Mike Shanahan: 146-98 (Regular Season) 8-5 (Postseason) 7 appearances
Bill Parcells: 172-130 (Regular Season) 11-8 (Postseason) 10 appearances
Bill Belichick: 138-86 (Regular Season) 15-4 (Postseason) 7 appearances
Tony Dungy: 139-69 (Regular Season) 9-10 (Postseason) 11 appearances
Dungy is the only one with a sub-500 record in either the regular season or postseason.
dungy=hall of fame...the end
not to mention 1st ever african american coach to win the big one
not to mention 1st ever african american coach to win the big one
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
A) I like how you avoided answering the question.
B) Tony Dungy is also the only coach (in NFL history, mind you) to take his team to the playoffs for 10 years in a row.
C) You do realize that without a good REGULAR season record, a coach will never take his team to the POST season...right? Compare Dungy's regular season winning% to all of those coaches you just listed and then tell me he's not great.
:2 cents:
PS - Post season winning % isn't at important as you think it is. Bill Cowher is a perfect example of that. He took his team to the playoffs 10 times and has a positive winning % (winning more than he has lost). Yet, he only has 1 Super Bowl ring. Just like...just like Tony Dungy. HMM...imagine that. Good thing Cowher has that better winning % in the post season, because it obviously got him more Super Bo...oh, wait...no, no it didn't.
:2 cents:
1...Your question is incoherent, because Tony Dungy is Coach A and although he is a very good coach, he is not great. But Coach B is not a great coach either. So I do not understand what you tried to accomplish with that comparison.
2...I get that Dungy is the only coach to make it to the playoffs 10 years in a row and I have not diminished that accomplishment once this entire time.
3...Of course I realize that. But the fact is that Dungy's sub-par winning percentage in the postseason blemishes his outstanding winning percentage in the regular season and places him outside of the "great coach" category.
I think I am done with this conversation. I have said the same thing many times and in many different ways. It is almost comical that we have dissected such a minuscule difference in opinion for as long as we have.
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
1) Even though you used the word incorrectly, my question was completely coherent; you just chose to ignore it. I said it was a hypothetical situation, which means that it isn't a real situation. Yet, you still didn't answer.
2) So, if he is the only person to do something (something that is an absolutely amazing feat, by the way), then, how does that not make him great? He accomplished something that no one has ever done before. That, and that alone, is almost enough merit to land Tony Dungy in the halls of greatness.
3) Again, what's with your fetish of playoff winning percentages? I will, once again, revert to my previous hypothetical scenario (with Coach A and Coach B) and ask you to answer the question. Actually, allow me to ask you a different question...
Before, you made the following post, in regards to coaches whom you considered to be "great'...
I notice that you didn't mention Andy Reid. Why not? You are putting so much emphasis on playoff winning percentage, yet, Andy Reid isn't "great" in your opinion?
- He has taken the Eagles to 5 Conference Championships
- He has taken the Eagles to 1 Super Bowl
- He has a playoff record of 10-6
- He has never lost in the first round of the playoffs
- He has a playoff winning % of 62.5%
So, why is Andy Reid not great?
I'm willing to bet that you don't think he's great because he hasn't won a Super Bowl...which is something that Tony Dungy has done, even though he has a worse winning % in the playoffs.
:2 cents:
Incoherent defined as:
"(of an ideology, policy, or system) internally inconsistent; illogical" ~ from MAC dictionary.
so yes your question was incoherent because I was comparing Dungy to great coaches, while you were comparing Dungy (Coach A) to a not great coach (Coach B)
Dungy's 10 consecutive postseason appearance is a great feat but that does not define him as a coach. His career in its entirety needs to be considered.
Andy Reid is not great, because he has not won a championship yet. A head coach needs to win a championship in order to even qualify for greatness.
Not having a championship excludes a coach from greatness, merely having one does not necessarily include him.
"(of an ideology, policy, or system) internally inconsistent; illogical" ~ from MAC dictionary.
so yes your question was incoherent because I was comparing Dungy to great coaches, while you were comparing Dungy (Coach A) to a not great coach (Coach B)
Dungy's 10 consecutive postseason appearance is a great feat but that does not define him as a coach. His career in its entirety needs to be considered.
Andy Reid is not great, because he has not won a championship yet. A head coach needs to win a championship in order to even qualify for greatness.
Not having a championship excludes a coach from greatness, merely having one does not necessarily include him.
does that mean, marino isnt great? jim kelly? cuz they got no super bowl rings, either...just a thought
no. because I said HEAD COACH. Not QB. It's different. A head coach has more responsibilities and is the true leader of the team.
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/incoherent
My question was not incoherent.
Neither does his playoff winning %.
Everything about his career (with the exception of his 9-10 playoff record) is great. His playoff record, as I mentioned before, doesn't define him as a coach, but your argument as to "why" you don't think he's great certainly makes me think that you believe it does.
Tony Dungy has a Super Bowl ring, so, in your mind, he at least qualifies. Other than his playoff winning %, what hasn't he done to earn the title of "great"...???
I agree with the latter of that statement. Barry Switzer...enough said.
