Death Row Sniper Has Final Appeal Refused

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
....but no one can reasonably argue a cold blooded murderer is killed unjustly.

With all due respect, you're totally wrong, HM. I can reasonably argue it all you want. Killing anyone who is defenseless and who poses no threat to anyone is WRONG....period....whether it is done in the name of "justice" or "just to watch him die". No difference.
 
Yeah,I have no sympathy for the DC Sniper or any shitbag that murders innocent people...but they shouldn't be executed simply because it's wrong to sink to their level. What is it that's supposed to separate us from people like the DC Sniper and other Serial/Mass Killers? The fact that WE DON'T KILL PEOPLE.
 
With all due respect, you're totally wrong, HM. I can reasonably argue it all you want. Killing anyone who is defenseless and who poses no threat to anyone is WRONG....period....whether it is done in the name of "justice" or "just to watch him die". No difference.

I disagree.

To buy the argument; "Killing anyone who is defenseless and poses no (I suppose immediate) threat to anyone..." being "wrong" basically forecloses the prospect of justifiably bombing an enemy position under most circumstances in war, taking of sniper shots, etc.

That position is not compatible with reality IMO. And I disagree with the notion that acts of justice are meted out in it's name. "Justice" in the form of punishment is meted out as a consequence of an action that has wronged another.

"Defenseless" people are those who don't appreciate nor understand the consequences of their actions. That's why we don't execute those who are demonstrated to be mentally incapable of understanding the price of their actions. People who do, are not defenseless. The have the best defense in the world...the sense to understand why calculating to deprive another of their life is wrong....and doing so can result in the forfeiture of their right to live.

Understanding that....I submit they are not "defenseless". Their defense is to not murder other people in a premeditated, cold blooded manner.:2 cents:

If that were the case...there would be a de facto ban on the death penalty as it would never be a sentence.
 

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
I disagree.

OK. So do I with you obviously.

To buy the argument; "Killing anyone who is defenseless and poses no (I suppose immediate) threat to anyone..." being "wrong" basically forecloses the prospect of justifiably bombing an enemy position under most circumstances in war, taking of sniper shots, etc.

A totally different situation since those with whom you are at war are attempting to inflict reciprocal harm upon you. There's no comparison between the two scenarios.

If that were the case...there would be a de facto ban on the death penalty as it would never be a sentence.

From your keyboard to God's ears. Could you be the one to pull the switch and send thousands of volts of electricity coursing through the body of a guy strapped into the electric chair until his flesh was charred? Would you fire a high-caliber rifle shot into someone's heart from close range whose eyes were blindfolded and whose hands were tied behind their back? Would you deliberately inject someone with lethal drugs who was strapped and restrained in a prone position on a gurney to the point where their heart stopped beating and they ceased to be breathing any longer? You would actually willingly kill someone who is indeed defenseless and poses no threat to anyone at the time in question? If you can answer those few questions in the affirmative, please tell me what significant distinction there is between your acts and those of the condemned killer.

Or....does it somehow insulate you from any conscionable complicity by knowing that your killing is being carried out by someone hired to do so on your behalf by the state and in the name of "justice"?

I have no argument with someone who is pro death-penalty if they freely admit that it is pure blood vengeance and that they seek death as retribution for the acts of the convicted killer. I vehemently disagree with that stance but I can most certainly understand the emotion behind it. However, those who try to justify murdering someone in the name of "justice" or anything even remotely sanctimonious are just plain WRONG in my opinion.
 
A totally different situation since those with whom you are at war are attempting to inflict reciprocal harm upon you. There's no comparison between the two scenarios.
Somewhat different but not totally. The presumption is they will kill but until they do you're taking the life of a "defenseless" person who poses no immediate threat.
From your keyboard to God's ears. Could you be the one to pull the switch and send thousands of volts of electricity coursing through the body of a guy strapped into the electric chair until his flesh was charred? Would you fire a high-caliber rifle shot into someone's heart from close range whose eyes were blindfolded and whose hands were tied behind their back? Would you deliberately inject someone with lethal drugs who was strapped and restrained in a prone position on a gurney to the point where their heart stopped beating and they ceased to be breathing any longer? You would actually willingly kill someone who is indeed defenseless and poses no threat to anyone at the time in question? If you can answer those few questions in the affirmative, please tell me what significant distinction there is between your acts and those of the condemned killer.

Or....does it somehow insulate you from any conscionable complicity by knowing that your killing is being carried out by someone hired to do so on your behalf by the state and in the name of "justice"?

I have no argument with someone who is pro death-penalty if they freely admit that it is pure blood vengeance and that they seek death as retribution for the acts of the convicted killer. I vehemently disagree with that stance but I can most certainly understand the emotion behind it. However, those who try to justify murdering someone in the name of "justice" or anything even remotely sanctimonious are just plain WRONG in my opinion.

Well, like I said before and as a person who has taken life in combat...it is abstract objectification that allows anything to kill anything else.

If you view a person who set about to unjustly forfeit someone else's life as a non threatening, "defenseless" person laying on a gurney, I imagine you (or anyone else) would have a problem ending that person's life. If on the other hand you view the person laying there as one condemned to death for the actions they chose to undertake which have robbed an innocent person of the right they continue to enjoy...you'd probably look at that person less as "defenseless".

As far as vengeance versus justice....I don't know what else to tell you. The concept of forfeiture as a form of punishment is a natural component in the process of justice. Forfeiture of one's life for commensurate crimes seems as natural a consequence as forfeiture of any other right and doesn't require that someone possess some lust for blood...but mere fairness.
 

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
Somewhat different but not totally. The presumption is they will kill but until they do you're taking the life of a "defenseless" person who poses no immediate threat.

If the condemned killer breaks out of jail and is clearly dangerous, it would be appropriate to take any measures, including killing him, in order to subdue him. I don't see much difference in your "sniper" analogy.


Well, like I said before and as a person who has taken life in combat...it is abstract objectification that allows anything to kill anything else.

If you view a person who set about to unjustly forfeit someone else's life as a non threatening, "defenseless" person laying on a gurney, I imagine you (or anyone else) would have a problem ending that person's life. If on the other hand you view the person laying there as one condemned to death for the actions they chose to undertake which have robbed an innocent person of the right they continue to enjoy...you'd probably look at that person less as "defenseless".

So you personally would have no problem being the one to actually commit the act that ended the life of that person?

As far as vengeance versus justice....I don't know what else to tell you. The concept of forfeiture as a form of punishment is a natural component in the process of justice. Forfeiture of one's life for commensurate crimes seems as natural a consequence as forfeiture of any other right and doesn't require that someone possess some lust for blood...but mere fairness.

How is it "natural"? Because man is by his very nature a violent species? I don't see anything "natural" about the deliberate slaying of another human being without a legitimate and immediate reason. Furthermore, if the forfeiture of one's life as a consequence for a commensurate crime is really what you believe in, then you must also believe that a thief should have his hand cut off.

Let's face it. You simply believe in the death penalty and I do not. I have argued this issue a hundred times here and I stand by my principles. You obviously have the right to stand by yours. The laws of the state of Texas are on your side so you should be pleased that the killing will continue....other than to continue to voice my protests in any fashion that I can, there isn't much I can do about it since we executes more people 50 miles away from my own house than does the remaining whole of western civilization.

Pay special attention to Texas next Thursday. We're going to execute someone who didn't even commit the murder for which his accomplice (the actual killer) received a life sentence. Now that's real "natural" justice at work! :thumbsup:
 
From your keyboard to God's ears. Could you be the one to pull the switch and send thousands of volts of electricity coursing through the body of a guy strapped into the electric chair until his flesh was charred? Would you fire a high-caliber rifle shot into someone's heart from close range whose eyes were blindfolded and whose hands were tied behind their back? Would you deliberately inject someone with lethal drugs who was strapped and restrained in a prone position on a gurney to the point where their heart stopped beating and they ceased to be breathing any longer? You would actually willingly kill someone who is indeed defenseless and poses no threat to anyone at the time in question? If you can answer those few questions in the affirmative, please tell me what significant distinction there is between your acts and those of the condemned killer.

Or....does it somehow insulate you from any conscionable complicity by knowing that your killing is being carried out by someone hired to do so on your behalf by the state and in the name of "justice"?


I have no argument with someone who is pro death-penalty if they freely admit that it is pure blood vengeance and that they seek death as retribution for the acts of the convicted killer. I vehemently disagree with that stance but I can most certainly understand the emotion behind it. However, those who try to justify murdering someone in the name of "justice" or anything even remotely sanctimonious are just plain WRONG in my opinion.

In my response I overlooked answering this directly. An executioner is a cog in the machine of justice...no different from a judge, prosecutor, jury or jailer.

The significant difference between a murderer and an executioner is one kills unjustly and the other does not. Now I understand that some and certainly you based on your arguments have a problem distinguishing what's just and unjust in what appear to be the same type of act. But our system of justice in order to work requires that some have the authority in their official capacity to carry out certain acts in execution of enforcement and punishment.

I realize the concept of what is "just" and "unjust" is morally different to different people so I'll just refer to what I believe as "just" as being the recognized, legal authority.

I would say though if the acts of a criminal can't be distinguished conceptually and in common sense from the acts of those charged with carrying out justice....then we can't have a system of justice.

I'd ask, what separates a judge who fines someone from an extortioner? They both demand that people pay money at the threat of some more detrimental consequence. The distinction is one has the authority to carry out this act in his official capacity as a judge.

Jailers and kidnappers both hold people against their will. Jailers in their official capacity though have the authority to do so and that insulates them from the charges of kidnapping and/or false imprisonment.

A person who happens to carry out executions of condemned criminals doesn't have the right to murder people or effect the death of people (beyond self-defense) outside of their official capacity. All of these people are subject to the same laws we are outside of their official capacities in the justice system. But in our justice system we must grant certain authorities to some in order to effect punishment. In granting those authorities we make and accept that there is a distinction.

So I would say to you a murderer has no recognized, legal authority to take the life of another which thereby makes their actions unjust. One who effects a state execution has recognized, legal authority to do so at the behest of our justice system...thereby making their actions "just" IMO.

I must say though when it comes to vengeance...some who argue in favor of life imprisonment appear to be more bent on vengeance an infliction of anguish than those who argue in favor of the death penalty. Although it does feel lopsided to me on occasion that a cold-blooded, remorseless murderer isn't made to suffer upon death, my core belief is that sentencing a person to death is more about a reciprocity process than sadistic one...I suppose that's why we seek to do it "humanely". But hoping someone is made to suffer and anguish as a result of a lifetime in jail seems more sadistic and vengeful.:dunno:
 

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
^
There's no resolution to this, HM. I disagree with just about everything you said.

Just for the record, you still didn't answer my questions but it's OK.

Time to move on....
 
^
There's no resolution to this, HM. I disagree with just about everything you said.

Just for the record, you still didn't answer my questions but it's OK.

Time to move on....

Okay we just disagree. But I wasn't looking for a resolution per se but responding I thought to your questions. I thought you were asking what's the distinction. The distinction is the same distinction from a judge demanding someone pay money but not committing extortion or a jailer holding someone against their will but not being a kidnapper and an executioner effecting someone's death but not being a murderer.

There are many ways in our society to effect the death of another and not be guilty of a crime. Acting out duties as an executioner is one.

Killing a person by any other means or for any other justifiable reason doesn't leave them any less dead. I just don't see why some seem to think the killing of a person who's committed a crime worthy of such a sentence is so much more different.:dunno:

There IS a difference from killing summarily a person who is defenseless, has surrendered and poses no immediate threat because as apparent as the facts may be...the circumstances haven't been tried in order to determine what all of the facts actually are.

Once the facts are reasonably determined in a court and due process is ultimately served, I had have no problem with death being the consequence for commission of some crimes.
 
Justice systems/societys are just way to fallible to be allowed to have the power of life and death.

http://www.newsbatch.com/deathpenalty.htm

"In January 2000, Governor George Ryan of Illinois imposed a moratorium on the imposition of the death penalty in Illinois. In reviewing death penalty cases since 1977, he determined that 13 death row inmates in the state had been cleared of murder charges, compared to 12 who had been put to death. Some of the 13 inmates were taken off death row after DNA evidence exonerated them; the cases of others collapsed after new trials were ordered by appellate courts. "There is a flaw in the system, without question, and it needs to be studied", Ryan said. Ironically, the Republican Governor had campaigned in support of the death penalty. Ultimately in January 2003, Governor Ryan commuted all death sentences to prison terms of life or less."

"Death penalty critics argue that the high reversal rate in death penalty cases illustrates the fallibility of the criminal justice process. A full 65% of convictions in capital cases are overturned according to one study. Yet there does not appear to be significant progress on many proposals for modifying criminal procedure in capital cases such assigning special judges and guaranteeing adequately trained counsel. Nor are there proposals which might impose a higher standard of proof in death cases for the purpose of reducing the risk of executing innocent persons."


And there's lot more at that link that shows just how arbitrary and unfair the death penalty is.
 
Justice systems/societys are just way to fallible to be allowed to have the power of life and death.

http://www.newsbatch.com/deathpenalty.htm

"In January 2000, Governor George Ryan of Illinois imposed a moratorium on the imposition of the death penalty in Illinois. In reviewing death penalty cases since 1977, he determined that 13 death row inmates in the state had been cleared of murder charges, compared to 12 who had been put to death. Some of the 13 inmates were taken off death row after DNA evidence exonerated them; the cases of others collapsed after new trials were ordered by appellate courts. "There is a flaw in the system, without question, and it needs to be studied", Ryan said. Ironically, the Republican Governor had campaigned in support of the death penalty. Ultimately in January 2003, Governor Ryan commuted all death sentences to prison terms of life or less."

"Death penalty critics argue that the high reversal rate in death penalty cases illustrates the fallibility of the criminal justice process. A full 65% of convictions in capital cases are overturned according to one study. Yet there does not appear to be significant progress on many proposals for modifying criminal procedure in capital cases such assigning special judges and guaranteeing adequately trained counsel. Nor are there proposals which might impose a higher standard of proof in death cases for the purpose of reducing the risk of executing innocent persons."


And there's lot more at that link that shows just how arbitrary and unfair the death penalty is.

You'll find no disagreement with me there. And I favor moratoriums in such circumstances.

Maybe capitol punishment cases should only be tried by the feds or some more elite, dispassionate system which can eliminate or minimize opportunity for local corruption.

But of course our system isn't perfect otherwise no one who's actually guilty of murder would ever get acquitted.
 

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
Okay we just disagree. But I wasn't looking for a resolution per se but responding I thought to your questions. I thought you were asking what's the distinction. The distinction is the same distinction from a judge demanding someone pay money but not committing extortion or a jailer holding someone against their will but not being a kidnapper and an executioner effecting someone's death but not being a murderer.

There are many ways in our society to effect the death of another and not be guilty of a crime. Acting out duties as an executioner is one......


OK one more clarification then and then we'll drop it because we will not see eye-to-eye on this issue. I was asking if YOU PERSONALLY would be willing to carry out the execution. My request for a distinction between you and the convicted killer was predicated on you answering that question in the affirmative. If you aren't willing to do it yourself, then you are basically carrying out a contract killing as the death warrant states that the order of execution is being carried out by the people of the state in which the execution takes place. It isn't the judge, the jury, the jailer or even the executioner who is technically carrying out the order.....it's the citizens of the state (you and me). The executioner is just a subcontractor who is hired by us to commit the murder on our behalf.

.....Once the facts are reasonably determined in a court and due process is ultimately served, I had have no problem with death being the consequence for commission of some crimes.

Even if it is later determined that the now-deceased convict was indeed innocent? Or if the result of the "due process" is like the Robert Thompson case that I mentioned in my prior post (he's going to the death chamber next Thursday and he killed NO ONE). As FOMM pointed out above, former Illinois Governor Ryan placed a moratorium on all executions since DNA evidence was disclosing a number of death row inmates who were actually innocent of the crime for which they were sentenced to death.

In my world, this is unacceptable. In yours, I guess that's just part of the cost of doing business.

OK....my work is finished here.
 
OK one more clarification then and then we'll drop it because we will not see eye-to-eye on this issue. I was asking if YOU PERSONALLY would be willing to carry out the execution. My request for a distinction between you and the convicted killer was predicated on you answering that question in the affirmative. If you aren't willing to do it yourself, then you are basically carrying out a contract killing as the death warrant states that the order of execution is being carried out by the people of the state in which the execution takes place. It isn't the judge, the jury, the jailer or even the executioner who is technically carrying out the order.....it's the citizens of the state (you and me). The executioner is just a subcontractor who is hired by us to commit the murder on our behalf.



Even if it is later determined that the now-deceased convict was indeed innocent? Or if the result of the "due process" is like the Robert Thompson case that I mentioned in my prior post (he's going to the death chamber next Thursday and he killed NO ONE). As FOMM pointed out above, former Illinois Governor Ryan placed a moratorium on all executions since DNA evidence was disclosing a number of death row inmates who were actually innocent of the crime for which they were sentenced to death.

In my world, this is unacceptable. In yours, I guess that's just part of the cost of doing business.

OK....my work is finished here.

Wow...I would think if I have no problem with death being a sentence...explained that I have had no problem killing as a responsibility in the past that it would be obvious I could and would be willing to act out the responsibilities required to be an executioner. Short answer, yes.

Jagger like I've said before, nothing pains me more than injustice imposed on the innocent. No matter what the injustice...certainly one as extreme as erroneously taking someone's life.

But just because those circumstances unfortunately happen doesn't mean the death penalty is not a viable, just punishment for those who deserve it. Those are two separate issues.....I like everyone (I would imagine) am vehemently opposed to a system so imperfect that it could falsely imprison someone let alone sentence them to death.

People are falsely imprisoned all the time but that isn't a case for the elimination of jailing perpetrators.

The results of these findings of erroneous convictions should be that we take a look at different methods for deciding these cases or overhauling a part of the system. Not eradicating just punishments.
 

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...
Did you not say in the thread about which document/s you think are important in your life , the the old and new testment should be taken together?

They both have to be together.

If we discard Genesis then you discard the garden and Adam and Eve.
And, so many other things.

If you weren't just trying to disprove the Bible you would see that.
But, your unbelief blinds you to the truth.
 

jasonk282

Banned
They both have to be together.

If we discard Genesis then you discard the garden and Adam and Eve.
And, so many other things.

If you weren't just trying to disprove the Bible you would see that.
But, your unbelief blinds you to the truth.

Then how can you discard the laws given to Moses?
 

DuanCulo

Moderator
Staff member

You know what else was unconstitutional? Linda Franklin in the Home Depot parking lot getting a single shot to the head and her husband "feeling something hit his face" which turns out was his wife's brains.


It's a shame they couldn't have executed John Muhammad more than once or simply lit him on fire. And Lee Boyd Malvo's life sentence is unconstitutional according to an activist liberal judge.

Can we just get this over with?

#FuckTheLeft
 
Completely based on a technicality.

Go ahead and retry him. Waste taxpayer money and get the same result.
 
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