PirateKing
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I agree. The front line is everywhere and theres no shelter in sight.
Chris Matthews: What has the Republican Party done for The People...
- Thread starter HELLRAISER
- Start date
I agree. The front line is everywhere and theres no shelter in sight.
What people like you don't understand is that if we allow ourselves to become just as bad as the most evil people out there and use evil to fight evil, we don't destroy them, WE DESTROY OURSELVES. If we throw away all our most deeply held principles when they get in the way of effectiveness or convenience, if we end up becoming as bad as our enemies just what the hell are we fighting for then? I don't want to live in that kind of world and I'm not going to fight for it to stay that way. I demand better. If it comes to that, and we sink to their level, we have already lost and more than just a material way. You can't fight evil with evil and have something good come out of it. It will always lead to more misery and even more evil.
I do not see how we "destroy ourselves". The American public is not committing these attacks directly, they have no effect on our daily lives. Politicians sanction these events. Sounds crass but it is the truth. We have soldiers (nobody forces them to enlist and they know what they are getting into) to do this for us. We have crazies that will stop at nothing short of the complete destruction of all those who oppose them. We won't have to worry about "destroying ourselves", they would gladly do that for us if we don't fight back.
I am a very left-leaning liberal but I side with the right on this one. How can you fight those who place no value on their own lives much less on yours and mine? You can argue that maybe torture is ineffective in that the enemy will say whatever, not necessarily the truth, but, if used properly it can be very effective.
PirateKing
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Thank you D-rock:thumbsup: We cant compromise our principles just because the enemy shows no mercy. If we keep compromising and dont enforce a standard then eventually the country becomes a monster itself. We need to establish a clear message that we are unwavering and honorable.
SgtMarine
Banned
5 November, 2004
Camp Abu Ghraib
RCT-1, CO Col. Michael Shupp
The Col, called the entire Thundering Third into the courtyard, where he addressed us, he clairfied the ROEs and said
"When you go into a fight, you fight for each other. You firght for your fellow Marines. Those are the things that really matter. You have the right to protect yourself. Take the fight to the enemy, but fight with firmness, dignity, and respect. You are warriors not criminals."
You see Jason, when we act like our enemies we become criminals just like them and we are better than that.
Lets say its as clear-cut as you say. We either become a monster or we get killed off by the crazies. Choose your poison. I'd rather live...
PirateKing
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If we turn our backs and pretend to be ignorant then are we really not destroying ourselves? The german people chose to ignore the fact that the jewish people were being rounded up by the nazi party and executed. The people cant just turn a blind eye to its governments actions.
lol i had to make an edit because i noticed that comment just after i posted a comparison between the torturing and the holocaust.
I'm not saying we should drop nukes or round up all the muslims and commit genocide. Round up the terrorists/criminals and do what it takes to save innocents lives.
SgtMarine
Banned
What do you think we have been trying to do! It not as easy as saying look the bad guys are right here come get them. The Muj, AQ bring pain and death onto the people who rat them out to US forces. The people are scared to do anything aganist AQ for fear of reprisal.
PirateKing
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well i can agree with you on that. Even tho i think that dropping the A-bomb sorta compromised that 'respect'.
SgtMarine
Banned
Also to the point, CIA operatives, SEALS, Marines, etc. getting prosecuted for their treatment of these terrorists (read: animals) is outright appalling. How the Constitution can protect a terrorist who lives in another country and affords them the same rights as a common criminal in the U.S. escapes me...
SgtMarine
Banned
Now that is something that SgtMarine agrees with. But let's not change the subject if we what to have a discussion on that, then we need to start a thread on it. Or search to see if there is already one on it.
I'm not arguing that torture is ineffective. (which it probably is) I'm arguing that if we as a people start destroying our very identity, if we start destroying everything good about us as a culture, people, and country for the sake of the easiest victory, then the very reason we are fighting to preserve ourselves is meaningless. If we continue that, what we will have become as a people at the logical conclusion of that course will be nothing both the hollow corrupted shell of what we once were. We would not only be fighting to preserve something that is no longer worth fighting, at that point it wouldn't even exist at all. In essence the bad guys will have won at that point. Even if it's not in the way they thought would happen.
Yes, if as a people if we start condoning torture, the ending of human rights, or other despicable things in the name of victory it will keep going and effect our very essence. It's not just the government doing it, it's the people that let the government do it also. If we don't speak out and turn a blind eye to wrongdoing, no matter who does them, then those people are part of the problem. To think that we can just a blind eye and not have it effect us is very shortsighted and false.
As far as how we fight people like that. We defend ourselves, but we uphold our most deeply held beliefs while we do it. We don't become as bad as our enemy. We dig deep down within ourselves and we persevere. We show future generations what we were made of. We make it so our forbearers that came before us and sacrificed for a better world didn't do it for nothing. We do not take the quick and easy way over the right one, even if that might cause hardship, even if that might cost some of our lives.
Its along the same lines of the conversation we were having and the point I was trying to make. They are criminals/terrorists not American citizens. They are not covered under the Geneva convention much less our Constitution! So different rules should apply. The capture one of ours and commit atrocities (beheadings, drawn and quartings, etc.) makes them subhuman (just the terrorists not muslims as a whole so relax)
and they should not get the same protection we get. If they did this just to our soldiers and operatives, its still fucked up but war is war; doing it to contracted labor and journalists is something else...(e.g. Daniel Pearl)
PirateKing
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Its along the same lines of the conversation we were having and the point I was trying to make. They are criminals/terrorists not American citizens. They are not covered under the Geneva convention much less our Constitution! So different rules should apply. The capture one of ours and commit atrocities (beheadings, drawn and quartings, etc.) makes them subhuman (just the terrorists not muslims as a whole so relax)
the thing is that we also tortured people that turned out were not connected to Al Quada at all. anyways you could bring up all of the twisted barbaric shit that Al Queda has done to our soldiers and civilians it doesnt change the notion that an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Martin Luther king said that:thumbsup:
....or was it ghandi?:dunno:
SgtMarine
Banned
Its along the same lines of the conversation we were having and the point I was trying to make. They are criminals/terrorists not American citizens. They are not covered under the Geneva convention much less our Constitution! So different rules should apply. The capture one of ours and commit atrocities (beheadings, drawn and quartings, etc.) makes them subhuman (just the terrorists not muslims as a whole so relax)
You have no idea what Blackwater and other PMC are all about. I can assure you they are not just "delivering catering supplies" like the media shows. Your right they are not covered under the Geneva Convention because they are
They are not part of a traditional military force, different rules apply.
We won't have to worry about being blind once they blow us up with nukes. Switching countries for a second, Iran claims they are working with nuclear power for peaceful purposes but the religious parties over there have mushroom clouds as the emblem on their flags and they boast about soon being able to use them against us. The only country with nukes that actually wants to use them. Now, if information acquired by torture saves the lives of thousands (i.e. preventing a nuclear attack or the likes) I'd love to see people argue against it then (of course we probably wouldn't be privy to that information but you get the point).
Oh, I know all about Blackwater and the likes but I was not talking about Mercenary groups. I was talking about contracted labor for infrastructure, communications and journalists, etc. People over there for non-violent purposes.
PirateKing
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We need a pornstar in on this debate that would spice things up.
jasonk282
Banned
well you are the PirateKing, are you gay for pay?
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