Anybody else think this is getting out of control?

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No, stupid, the facts remain.

1) Trayvon Martin was unarmed
2) George Zimmerman followed Martin, even after 9-1-1 told him not to
3) Martin was staying at his Dad's girlfriends house, which was in that particular community, giving Martin every right to be there.

You have no intelligent response to that so you troll.
No one is claiming Zimmerman is innocent. The question is what to charge him with at this point. Because of how the laws are written in Florida, one can be held, but not for long, without a charge. After a rush of arrests of innocent people because of Florida's strict gun crime laws, the stand your ground law came out to counter them. That 1-2 balance has largely been effective for several years now, with very few variations. If you pull a gun in a crime, you get 10 years minimum, 20 if you fire it, kill someone and you get life, if not the chair. But if you do it in self-defense, it's on the burden for police to prove you were committing a crime.

But this has been well into uncharted territory. Most Floridians agree Zimmerman is at least guilty of manslaughter. The fact that he caused the confrontation, and Florida legislators have repeatedly stated stand your ground doesn't free Zimmerman of any liability of manslaughter as Martin was walking away, is what he will be charged with at a minimum. The question is if they can prove murder, which is not easily done in Florida. That's why prosecutors were not quick to charge him, and many people in Florida believe a 3rd law is needed to clarify liabilities in such cases. That would define it better for prosecutors, as the current Common Law is rather limited to go on.

Now with the bypassing of the grand jury, first degree murder is out. The lawyers of the family weren't expecting him to be charged with such either. No one remotely thinks this was first degree murder, not even the family. Otherwise Zimmerman would have never called the police before the incident, let alone of his past dealings with the police. Martin's family has been extremely patient, and continually asking people not to do things in Martin's name. That has been most impressive, especially with the media hoopla.

The out-of-area prosecutor will reveal within the next few days if it will be manslaughter, murder or possibly both. It's likely going to be both, probably a lesser murder charge, if they have enough eye-witnesses that proved Zimmerman was not in danger (and the one hovering over Martin). The question will be if Martin's family would agree to a plea by Zimmerman to manslaughter, as I'm sure the prosecutor will not allow one without the approval of Martin's family, if the evidence for murder is rather weak. It really all depends on the case the prosecutor has for murder charges.

However, innocent or guilty, the lawsuits are not over. Expect a civil lawsuit against the homeowners association, because there is clear, written documentation that Zimmerman was the official watch captain. The homeowners association had designated him a contact to call after police, as he had been helpful with past crimes. Understand Zimmerman only made about 11% of the calls to the Sanford police, but his were the most effective. That's why Zimmerman was trusted and, correspondingly, with the written documentation by the association, which can be held liable for wrongful deaths under Florida law.

This is a perfect example of why one should always heed the advise of law enforcement. Zimmerman actually did at first. But then he decided to tell the dispatcher to have the officer meet him. That's when everything gets blurry. From Martin's standpoint, he's wondering what a guy is doing following him, and who knows how he may or may have not reacted., and perfectly and understandably so from his viewpoint. From Zimmerman's standpoint, he thought Martin was yet another person staking out houses for yet another, planned robbery. Seminole County has been undergoing massive unemployment, enough that it has been featured on the national news over the last few years, and that's why the Neighborhood Watch was formed last fall.

Zimmerman is definitely liable for manslaughter, he caused the confrontation. Most members in the local NRA chapters completely agree, and absolutely hold distain for Zimmerman, who they think was irresponsible. Many agree that neighborhood watch volunteers should not arm themselves for the same reasons of liability. They are not to confront, but if someone does because they are being watched by a neighorhood watchman or woman, it's best not to have any weapons at all, and flee. They are instructed to report, not confront, as they do not have the experience of other authorities. I understand the frustration with some of the residents, with the increase in crimes. Zimmerman did the right thing, at first. Then he f'd up, bad, and now a young man is dead. I don't know many -- actually, none, no -- Floridians, and none of the gun owners in Florida I know too, who believe Zimmerman is innocent here at all.

Stand your ground in Florida does not protect you if you instigate a confrontation. There is quite enough evidence to show that if Zimmerman would have not approached Martin, Martin would be alive today. That's manslaughter, even if not intentional. Now if it became intentional at some point, which the evidence would need to show, it would be murder. However, this thing has been so tainted by the media, I hope the system is impartial.

I mean, even some of the witnesses have shown confusion. Because Zimmerman was not 250lbs., and Martin had over 4 inches on him. Martin and Zimmerman were much closer in weight. Martin looks nothing like his common picture in the media, and he was at least as much over 150lbs. than what the media says he is well under it. Martin could look like the larger adult from some viewpoints, and even some witnesses -- who were at a distance, at night, in-the-rain (and it rains heavy in Florida, a light Florida rain is like a moderate to heavy up north) -- would probably need to identify the men by clothing, not the size.
 
Yes, really. Remove the gun from this equation and what do you have? Zimmerman left lying in the street with the shit kicked out of him. Martin would be alive today to settle this dispute in court.
Actually, under Florida law, if Martin really did assault him, then Zimmerman would be justified in shooting him, even if it resulted in Martin's death. The problem is that there is no, definitive proof shown in public either way at this point.

In Florida, you should never assault someone. If you do, and someone's life is threatened -- including their quality in life through permanent damage -- you are justified in shooting them. The law actually works very well. This is a fringe case that does not occur. Every year there are only a half-dozen "questionable" cases reported. Given Florida's population, that's extremely low. Remember, Florida is virtually New York, the 3rd largest state. The greater central Florida area, not even including Tampa, is over 3 million people.

At the same time, if you just fire a gun, let alone hurt someone, Florida has some of the toughest gun laws on record. It's a minimum 10 years for just pulling a gun and threatening someone with it. 20 for shooting it. Life to death -- electric chair-style -- for killing someone. That's why stand your ground came about, to release people who were proven to be innocent gun owners that pulled when they were assaulted, because of the tough gun laws.

Most Floridians are now calling for a new, additional law to strictly define liabilities and when stand your ground is absolutely inapplicable. It's a gray area right now, with limited existing case law in Florida. In the majority of cases, it's fairly cut'n dry. Unfortunately, we now have a case like this, and it shows that when it's clear that even when one party has a liability, prosecutors are reluctant. That's a good indicator that there's a need for a refinement in the laws.
 
No one in this day and age should require armed protection - not in North America (aside from VIPs - celebs etc.).
This has got to be one of the all time most ridiculous posts in the history of the internet.
Indeed.

The United States, statistically, is one of the most violent nations in the western world. Non-firearm violent weapons and crime is linear to firearm crimes, which greatly exceed all other western nations. The US always has been and likely always will be like this. It is a mish-mesh of cultures, creeds, communities and chaos. So comparing US to non-US firearm discharges is quickly dispelled when you compare non-firearm assaults with other weapons (and even the human weapon itself) between US and non-US as well.

Several municipalities have shown the exact opposite, and that's why the US Supreme Court struck down the DC law, there was absolutely no validation at all. The 2nd Amendment clearly allows ownership in the home for protection, and re-asserted the right of communities to band together with their arms -- the 2nd biggest complaint against the British after 1770 (individual ownership was unquestioned by the British). Being a criminal, and knowing you might be unlawfully entering into a home where the owner is legally armed is very much a deterrent, and has been proven over and over again.

There's been more of a question of concealed and public carry, as well as public defense -- like stand-your-ground. Although some studies in Florida are trying to show it is reducing the change of public assaults, especially against women who are arming themselves in Florida, the laws are too new in Florida to have any meaningful statistics yet. And they will be varied based on the economy, unemployment and the like, including the heavy increase in robberies and other crimes, including armed assaults, given Florida's heavy unemployment after its 30+ year housing and growth boom.

But overall, study after study after study has shown legal gun ownership in the US is far more likely to deter or even stop a crime than the gun will be accidentally discharged and harm someone. The great majority of gun owners in the US are responsible and take it seriously. Unfortunately criminals do not. In fact, assault weapons are a huge problem in the US entirely because of organized crime and non-legal residents. Availability is unavoidable, legal or not, and the unlawful acquisition and usage are not because of law abiding citizens and owners.
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
Has anyone ever stood Watch before? I have. I'm sure there are a few in here who served in the military.

Seeing how Zimmerman was the man on duty that night, he had every right to question Trayvon, even though it was a non military area, I'm sure he had regulations to follow.

Shit. You and Zimmerman together couldn't defend a can of peanuts from a family of squirrels.


 

PlasmaTwa2

The Second-Hottest Man in my Mother's Basement
I had forgot what intelligence was like until the Prof. showed up.
 
Indeed.

The United States, statistically, is one of the most violent nations in the western world. Non-firearm violent weapons and crime is linear to firearm crimes, which greatly exceed all other western nations. The US always has been and likely always will be like this. It is a mish-mesh of cultures, creeds, communities and chaos. So comparing US to non-US firearm discharges is quickly dispelled when you compare non-firearm assaults with other weapons (and even the human weapon itself) between US and non-US as well.

Several municipalities have shown the exact opposite, and that's why the US Supreme Court struck down the DC law, there was absolutely no validation at all. The 2nd Amendment clearly allows ownership in the home for protection, and re-asserted the right of communities to band together with their arms -- the 2nd biggest complaint against the British after 1770 (individual ownership was unquestioned by the British). Being a criminal, and knowing you might be unlawfully entering into a home where the owner is legally armed is very much a deterrent, and has been proven over and over again.

There's been more of a question of concealed and public carry, as well as public defense -- like stand-your-ground. Although some studies in Florida are trying to show it is reducing the change of public assaults, especially against women who are arming themselves in Florida, the laws are too new in Florida to have any meaningful statistics yet. And they will be varied based on the economy, unemployment and the like, including the heavy increase in robberies and other crimes, including armed assaults, given Florida's heavy unemployment after its 30+ year housing and growth boom.

But overall, study after study after study has shown legal gun ownership in the US is far more likely to deter or even stop a crime than the gun will be accidentally discharged and harm someone. The great majority of gun owners in the US are responsible and take it seriously. Unfortunately criminals do not. In fact, assault weapons are a huge problem in the US entirely because of organized crime and non-legal residents. Availability is unavoidable, legal or not, and the unlawful acquisition and usage are not because of law abiding citizens and owners.


Oh, snap. Layin' da smack down.

Shifty, you taking notes?
 
George Zimmerman launches website for donations via PayPal for legal, living expenses

Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman has apparently launched a website—TheRealGeorgeZimmerman.com—to relay a message thanking his supporters, and to collect donations via PayPal for his living and defense expenses. The site had been down intermittently on Monday afternoon.

"I am the real George Zimmerman," a message on the site begins. "On Sunday February 26th, I was involved in a life altering event which led me to become the subject of intense media coverage. As a result of the incident and subsequent media coverage, I have been forced to leave my home, my school, my employer, my family and ultimately, my entire life. This website's sole purpose is to ensure my supporters they are receiving my full attention without any intermediaries."

The site's background is an image of a large American flag. The domain was privately registered on Sunday, according to NetworkSolutions.com records.
NBC News' Mara Schiavocampo said she confirmed through Zimmerman's lawyers that the site is indeed his. CNN and other media outlets followed.
More from Zimmerman's site:

It has come to my attention that some persons and/or entities have been collecting funds, thinly veiled as my "Defense Fund" or "Legal Fund". I cannot attest to the validity of these other websites as I have not received any funds collected, intended to support my family and I through this trying, tragic time.
I have created a Paypal account solely linked on this website as I would like to provide an avenue to thank my supporters personally and ensure that any funds provided are used only for living expenses and legal defense, in lieu of my forced inability to maintain employment. I will also personally, maintain accountability of all funds received. I reassure you, every donation is appreciated.
Sincerely,
George Zimmerman


The posted message concluded with a quote from Edmund Burke: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is that good men do nothing."
Earlier on Monday, Angela Corey, the special prosecutor appointed to investigate the shooting death of Martin, said that the case will not go to a grand jury.
The decision does not rule out the possibility that George Zimmerman, Martin's shooter, could be arrested.


yahoo.com
 
'It has come to my attention that some persons and/or entities have been collecting funds, thinly veiled as my "Defense Fund" or "Legal Fund". I cannot attest to the validity of these other websites as I have not received any funds collected, intended to support my family and I through this trying, tragic time.'
This was likely the driver, people trying to profit from his name, much like others were from Martin.

Despite not [yet] being arrested, Zimmerman is basically hiding in his home. He's not going anywhere. And he can't do anything, even though he is allegedly "free." So it was only a matter of time when the frauds out there, plus his own fiscal requirements for a defense, came together.

Don't be surprised when this thing ends in a plea, likely felony manslaughter, with the approval of Martin's family at a duration all parties come to agree upon. Then it will move to the civil trials against the community for unlawful death. I don't see this thing being dragged out into a long trial, unless the prosecutor has hard witnesses and real evidence, and Zimmerman is playing up the self-defense against it. Even with rain, ballistics do work wonders, and law enforcement did confiscate items from Zimmerman for testing.

Despite the non-sense of the media, and the racial baiting and even injection (and some networks will be sanctioned, hard, soon enough), the people, community and system does work. In a situation that was confusing for prosecutors, there was a hesitation to act. Then the people got word of it, and things moved. The state of Florida got involved, as it has jurisdiction over its locales, and the Department of Justice went in to ensure civil rights were upheld as it should. The rest of the case is the rest of the case, despite all of the things going on.

One family is dealing very calmly, even if hurt in ways most of us can only imagine, believing in justice, while another family understands they may be missing their loved one to allow justice to take its necessary course. No one wins by gut reactions and by jumping to conclusions. If there is a lesson to that for all of us, it's what happened to Martin, and we should not repeat it for it would undo both his case and his cause.
 
Why does the 2nd amendment exist? What has it done for you?
Why does the 3rd amendment exist? Better yet ... what were the main, American grievances that resulted in the 1st and 2nd Amendments?

And how about the 3rd and 4th Amendments again? We can move on in pairs from there. And why haven't the American people overturned the 2nd Amendment? They are certainly entitled to do so, along with any other Amendments they see fit.

The American people can and should overturn Amendments and even Supreme Court rulings. The US Constitution not only allows such, but encourages such. Don't like Judicial rulings, think they are being activists ... done! Constitutional amendment solves the problem.

The problem always is that there just aren't enough people to do so. Every person thinks they know better. But in reality, until a lot of people agree, they are just another asshole with an opinion. Americans only move en masse when it really matters.

Until you study the history, civics and reasonings behind hundreds upon hundreds of years of self-government, it doesn't make sense at all. Everyone seems wrong. Everything seemingly needs fixing. But once you study, you realize, the problems, the issues, the politics, the non-sense, it's always been there.

And yet, society survives. Why is that? Americans value their freedom. Not all Americans think alike. Heck, some piss on their own flag. You can deny the holocaust and join the Nazi party in the US. It's not so much what most Americans say or do, but all of what Americans tolerates that says the most to me.

That anyone can be wrong. That anyone can be an asshole. And everyone still gets to enjoy the same freedoms, until they take them away from someone else. And that's usually when you have the biggest problem with most Americans. And that continues to include the great majority of Americans who believe the 2nd Amendment should still exist.
 
Thank you, Member2019 for your contributions to this thread. It's very enjoyable reading your posts. :glugglug:
 
I had forgot what intelligence was like until the Prof. showed up.
I see what you did there. This mufucka hasn't been on here for a minute but he changed his name. He don't like me much(not surprising, really, as no one really does) but it was cool to see the history lesson and P was always a fair, bipartisan poster. Totally ripped the kiddie "take all the guns, save the world" shit out the thread with that thurrr post.
 

Shifty

O.G.
Oh, snap. Layin' da smack down.

Shifty, you taking notes?

The member is establishing how violent your culture is, how violence is systematically supported and how violence is routinely necessary in your daily life.

How 'out of control' things have become.

And somehow, you rejoice?

You've missed the point. Violent crime is a reality everywhere, but it is not a way of life everywhere.

When I say 'should' - I don't mean to say 'you' or 'Sam'. I mean a society. The average citizen 'should' not have to rely on a weapon for safety in a peaceful society.

This is not a question of the personal right to bear arms, rather the societal need to bear arms.
 
How 'out of control' things have become.
Become? US history hasn't changed. So little has changed in over 400 years of immigrant-influenced American history.

And somehow, you rejoice?
The US values the individual. I can understand how Americans rejoice as a result. Several things Americans take for granted are not tolerated, not even in the western world.

But not so coincidentally, the British allowed the Americas to be ruled like they were from almost the get-go. That had great influence over the values the US would come to cherish, and eventually take up arms over when many were banished or greatly limited by the British.

These basic viewpoints are at the heart of the US today. The political arguments over them are unchanged from nearly 215 years of existence as well.
 
The member is establishing how violent your culture is, how violence is systematically supported and how violence is routinely necessary in your daily life.

How 'out of control' things have become.

And somehow, you rejoice?

You've missed the point. Violent crime is a reality everywhere, but it is not a way of life everywhere.

When I say 'should' - I don't mean to say 'you' or 'Sam'. I mean a society. The average citizen 'should' not have to rely on a weapon for safety in a peaceful society.

This is not a question of the personal right to bear arms, rather the societal need to bear arms.

Fair enough.

How 'out of control' things are.

Well you're learning. I majored in history but the majority (I wanted, essentially, to do a graduate thesis on African history) on African history, which isn't to say it's not entirely bringing me back to a few courses. Don't even start on me on substance abuse...

Bro, you are not 'Merican, and you still have yet to say if you've ever visited our evil Stateside. I am interested in why you haven't and why you are so hesitant to. You are not going to be killed. Do not be a bitch.

I can trust you - regardless color, race, creed - we would welcome you in with open arms if you aren't a shifty, goofy, irrational freak looker...it ain't what you are paint'it, son.



But then again I am from the best Metro in the entire world, so my subjectivity is there.
 
To think this is all over some fat ass mexican guy with a jewish name killin a random black kid




The Left and all the black race baiters are doing their best to milk this drama for all it's worth. It's freaking hilarious. If by some bizarre chance the shit blows up in Florida I personally know a few who will welcome the Noo Black Panther Poopers with hollow point goodness.
 

PirateKing

█▀█▀█ █ &#9608
The posted message concluded with a quote from Edmund Burke: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is that good men do nothing."
What the hell does this mean? Is he a "good man" for going after the "evil" Trayvon Martin, rather than doing nothing? Who is the evil one in this situation?
 

PlasmaTwa2

The Second-Hottest Man in my Mother's Basement
What the hell does this mean? Is he a "good man" for going after the "evil" Trayvon Martin, rather than doing nothing? Who is the evil one in this situation?

Hitler. It's always Hitler.
 
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